Mike Williams cap figure continues to bother me

[LabattBlue]

Per redzone.org the the franchise tag price for a OL is 7.4 million. Per clump over at bz, MW is costing us 9+ mil per year for the next 3 years. I know he was a #4 overall pick and that high draft picks tend to get paid a lot of money, but something just doesn't seem right about this contract. I would love to know what the players taken before and after him are costing their teams in terms of cap hit. Unless he becomes first team all pro overnight, this cap hit is ridiculous. He is tying up 1/10 of the teams cap and this contract has to be redone ASAP in some way, shape or form.

 

 

From clumps page....

 

Mike Williams

 

On February 3rd, Dennis Williams reported on WNLO-TV (Channel 23 in Buffalo; sister station to Channel 4) that the Bills have asked Mike Williams' agent to re-work his deal to help the cap. This is not a surprise to me because I have his cap number now at $9.17 million because he triggered salary escalators for 2005-2007. He has 3 years remaining on his rookie deal signed in 2002. They breakdown as follows:

 

2005: $4 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization, $3 million roster bonus for a cap hit of $9.17 million. He also has a $1.5 million NLTBE incentive that I do not know how he earns.

 

2006: $4 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization, $3 million roster bonus for a cap hit of $9.17 million plus $1.5 million NLTBE.

 

2007: $5 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization plus $3.5 million NLTBE

[buffalo mike]

I don't know why this isn't being dealt with right now either. This does seem like a major issue this time of year. Anyone have a clue??

[Bill from NYC]

By those figures, it would cost the Bills 6.54 mil. in amortized bonuses alone to cut him. As for next year, it depends on when that 3 million dollar roster bonus is due. If it is due pre 6/1/06, the Bills are truly screwed. They would not be able to soften the bonus hit if he is cut.

 

Look at those numbers, and think back on MW reporting to camp as a beached whale. The truth is, he was a very bad selection. I am a TD supporter more than a detractor, but signing MW was one of his worst acts as GM.

 

McKinnie is said to not be doing well either, but at least he plays LT. Left Tackles are paid more, and harder to find.

 

Our only hope is that he plays to an all pro level and earns at least some of this obscene money, but there is nothing to indicate that he will.

I hope that one day, the offensive line of the Buffalo Bills will stop dragging down the football team.

[BADOLBILZ]

Per redzone.org the the franchise tag price for a OL is 7.4 million.  Per clump over at bz, MW is costing us 9+ mil per year for the next 3 years.  I know he was a #4 overall pick and that high draft picks tend to get paid a lot of money, but something just doesn't seem right about this contract.  I would love to know what the players taken before and after him are costing their teams in terms of cap hit.  Unless he becomes first team all pro overnight, this cap hit is ridiculous.  He is tying up 1/10 of the teams cap and this contract has to be redone ASAP in some way, shape or form. 

From clumps page....

 

Mike Williams

 

On February 3rd, Dennis Williams reported on WNLO-TV (Channel 23 in Buffalo; sister station to Channel 4) that the Bills have asked Mike Williams' agent to re-work his deal to help the cap. This is not a surprise to me because I have his cap number now at $9.17 million because he triggered salary escalators for 2005-2007. He has 3 years remaining on his rookie deal signed in 2002. They breakdown as follows:

 

2005: $4 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization, $3 million roster bonus for a cap hit of $9.17 million. He also has a $1.5 million NLTBE incentive that I do not know how he earns.

 

2006: $4 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization, $3 million roster bonus for a cap hit of $9.17 million plus $1.5 million NLTBE.

 

2007: $5 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization plus $3.5 million NLTBE

273422[/snapback]

 

 

I'm sure the Bills would like to re-do Williams deal. That pretty much is the idea when you backload a rookie contract as drastically as the Bills did. But I don't even think we can entertain the idea that they feel a "need" to make cap room until they cut a Pierson Prioleau or Coy Wire. They may feel satisfied that Williams is on the path to success now. They may be entertaining thoughts of moving him to left tackle but at a right tackle contract.

 

But, re-negotiating a contract is usually just stalling the impact, so worrying about his cap figures.....well, it's still going to cost. The Bills are not in a bad cap situation, they are being frugal by choice, and if folks here think that making cap room will allow the Bills to add free agents they otherwise wouldn't, I think they're wrong. If they want DeMulling, they can get it done. If they wanted PLAX, they could get it done. They are choosing their path in FA.

[Bill from NYC]

I'm sure the Bills would like to re-do Williams deal.  That pretty much is the idea when you backload a rookie contract as drastically as the Bills did.  But I don't even think we can entertain the idea that they feel a "need" to make cap room until they cut a Pierson Prioleau or Coy Wire.  They may feel satisfied that Williams is on the path to success now.  They may be entertaining thoughts of moving him to left tackle but at a right tackle contract.

 

  But, re-negotiating a contract is usually just stalling the impact, so worrying about his cap figures.....well, it's still going to cost.  The Bills are not in a bad cap situation, they are being frugal by choice, and if folks here think that making cap room will allow the Bills to add free agents they otherwise wouldn't, I think they're wrong.  If they want DeMulling, they can get it done.  If they wanted PLAX, they could get it done.  They are choosing their path in FA.

273443[/snapback]

 

Two questions:

1) Do you think that DeMulling is good enough to make room for?

2) Do you think MW would be a good LT?

[Ray]

That is what happens when you sign a top pick. You have to pay them big money. Face it--that is what happens in the NFL today and it happens to all teams. The Pats paid 10M for a CB out for half the season this year. The Rams are paying close to 7M this year for Kurt Warner who played for the Giants last year and will be with a new team this year! I'm sure the Bills want to restructure, but that is today's NFL. He signed a standard contract for a 4th pick in the draft. At least he plays as opposed to many top 5 picks who are gone from their teams--look at Cleveland.

[Nanker]

By those figures, it would cost the Bills 6.54 mil. in amortized bonuses alone to cut him. As for next year, it depends on when that 3 million dollar roster bonus is due. If it is due pre 6/1/06, the Bills are truly screwed. They would not be able to soften the bonus hit if he is cut.

 

Look at those numbers, and think back on MW reporting to camp as a beached whale. The truth is, he was a very bad selection. I am a TD supporter more than a detractor, but signing MW was one of his worst acts as GM.

 

McKinnie is said to not be doing well either, but at least he plays LT. Left Tackles are paid more, and harder to find.

 

Our only hope is that he plays to an all pro level and earns at least some of this obscene money, but there is nothing to indicate that he will.

I hope that one day, the offensive line of the Buffalo Bills will stop dragging down the football team.

273434[/snapback]

 

I wonder how much MW's contract factors into McKinnie's head... "If that fat slob makes $9mil at RT, then I should make $20 mil at LT."

 

Somehow I think MM and JM will get a "message" to Big Mike really early in training camp this year.

 

If he gets cut do the remaining years bonus money still hit our cap? I think it does. It would be drastic to cut him outright, but at least then if he was "playing" at playing in the NFL it would be mostly on somebody else's dime.

[Ball'n]

It still seems wierd that he was given so much. I do not think a #4 pick makes that much on thier rookie contract. He is definitly not worth all of the money he is going to make...

[JoeF]

Does it bother me that Mike Williams' cap figure is higher than Orlando Pace's...yes it bothers me.....

 

We should extend him for two years. Essentially making this a 5 year deal. Give him $8 million more up front converting this years, next years roster bonuses to signing bonuses and giving him an additional $2 M to extend. That means we have to amortize the $2.17 M per year in old bonuses for the next three years and $8 Million in new bonuses over the next 5 years...that's

 

2005 $2.17 M old bonus, $1.6 Million in new, $3.2 Million new salary (maximum) 20% cut...this is $6.97 which is a savings of $2.2 Million

2006 $6.97 Million

2007 $4 million salary (20% cut), $2.17 M old, 1.6 M new--$7.77M

2008 $3 Million salary, $1.6 M bonus $4.6 M Cap Hit

2009 $3 Million Salary, $1.6 M bonus $4.6 M Cap Hit

 

Dunn has got know that Mike has already gotten his cash in day...his first contract was his cash in..he should jump at something like this for someone who is going to be a career RT.... Its hard for me to blame TD for this one--we have been over ad nausem what our options were and this was the slotted contract for a #4--but man we could sure use relief.

 

By the way--I hate giving the guy an extra $8 M but its a way to relieve a bit of this problem...I hope the last 10 or so games of 04 were just a taste of how dominant this guy can be..if it is -- he may be worth this redone deal.

[jahnyc]

I am bothered about his compensation as well and I keep posting about it.

 

I know we could free-up some money now by restructuring his contract, but do we really want to? I guess if we could do it in a way that would still allow us to cut him in a year or two without making the cap hit worse, than I would do it. But I don't think this is possible because as a part of a restructuring he would likely get a new cash bonus.

 

I also don't think he is going to take significantly less money per year on average in the new years of an extension even if he gets a cash bonus now.

 

The real question is whether his contract was standard for where and when he was picked (including escalators) or did we screw it up.

 

If this is a standard contract, there is no way I would want to draft in the top ten (or maybe the top 20) in a draft.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Two questions:

1) Do you think that DeMulling is good enough to make room for?

2) Do you think MW would be a good LT?

273451[/snapback]

 

I think these are two of the primary questions facing the Bills in terms of OL choices. I'm afraid the answer is that I (and we all) have our guesses but we are missing two big sets of info that really will determine reality and what the best thing to do is. Without really knpwomg the facts on these two points we certainly are welcome and free to guess, but really even an informed fans opinion is little more than a fact-free opinion on the OL.

 

The unknow key fact are:

 

1. What is the actual language on the contracts- Clumpy has done outstanding research and his numbers are the best numbers available, but he is among the first two say that even his "best possible" numbers may well not be accurate in significant ways. Whle we know a lot of facts from looking at the NFLPA.com site where the posted cap figures are accurate, because if they lie they are lying to the players who pay their checks and if they have bad info then their partners in the NFL ownership are lying or being lied to which will bring down the whole CBA. We are still missing significant facts such as when roster bonuses are being paid, whether the bonuses are being paid as base salary or amortized as bonuses. etc. The whole Ruben Brown being cut last year came virtually out of the blue because he was due a salary bonus which forced the Bills to cut him in the off-season. We are simply missing key data which makes a huge difference in how you build a line and whether you keep a player or not almost regardless of how he plays.

 

2. What is the JMac plan- He has been with OLs which have made the Big Dance three times and led the way for productive rush games and protected relatively immobile QBs. Not giving this 25 year vet the benefit of the doubt (particulaly after he replaced guys who had a combined 4 years of OL position coaching when they got canned and who were running the blocking for the fired Sheppard and Kevin Killdrive. JMac can be both a vast improvement and not good at all at the same time.

 

Fortunately he shows every sign of still being good when he was part of pullimg offa winning record. seeing a huge reduction in the Bills sack totals and did this with a very talented young RB, an OL in disarray through the work of the previous regime, abd a less than mobile QB.

 

Like no ther unit in the game the whole of the OL can be far more productive than the skills of the individual players. One need look no further than what JMac was able to pull off with an OL in NYC that made the SB with Dusty Ziegler and Glenn Parker as two of the more talented players on the OL after we saw them have big problems with their game here. using a previously failed two time loser QB (Kerry Collins) and having a talented runner with such huge fumble problems (Tiki Barber) he made Travis look like an Ironman with the ball.

 

JMac may well end up with players correctly judged by us as having less talent (Womack? Shelton? DeMulling? and he may develop a plan, train these players and put them together so they are productive.

 

There's just no telling for sure, but for right now, I think it is totally correct to give JMac and the Bills the benefit of the doubt even if the selections and signings looks simply assinine to us/

 

Of course as fans, if they abuse this trust by posting a losing record or missing the playoffs yet again it strikes me as totally legit for us to jump on the job they did with both feet.

 

Trust but verify.

 

As far as your two questions:

 

1) DeMulling seems to be the best player available in FA right now. The prospect of getting solid center play out of him and allowing us to shift Teague to the LT slot seems reasonable and doable to me. However, there are many other OL options out there (Internal development of Tucker as our C allowing Teague to go to LT, a trade for Shelton allowing him to go to LT, spending a high draft pick (either our 2nd or one acquired in a trade for Henry for a prospect who can play an interior line position immediately, picking up a cap casualtie come June, that if JMac thinks he can make one of these options work and paying $3 million annually for DeMulling is to much I can go with this.

 

2: I think there is reasonable potential for MW to succeed at LT. He was horribly untrained his first two years suffering under the inexperienced Vinky and Ruel. It was rediclous and counter to hi development to have hin have to carry Sullivan as a rookie and Pucillo as a second year player next to him. I'm shocked he and the OL were as productive as they were his first two years.

 

His mini-camp last year was disgusting. His melting down when the Grandma who raised him died was certainly understanable, but it is not condonable at all. He was unprofessional and let his teammates and the entire region down. In the real world you suck it up despite a horrible death and be a professional. He gets paid to well to react like Joe Average.

 

However, all the tea leaves look good that MW has learned from this horrible experience and the carrots (a game ball as the streak began) and sticks of the Bills braintrust (JMac fooling MW and ICE into believing that he would sacrifice future pay by being moved inside to guard even though he showed no outside rush problems and actually stunts and working in traffic were bigger problems for him. Why move him inside where he would likely play worse?

 

Is MW he real deal and able to not only handle the RT slot but even make the flip to LT? Too early to tell, but the tea leaves look good. He needs to dominate this year or the Bills should renegotiate or cut him. Under JMac\s guidance and with Villarial next to him I think the amazing combo of size and agility he showed at the combine that got him drafted should emerge on the field and I think (hope) he will be OK.

 

However, as informed as I feel this opinion is, it and a dollar won't even get you a cup of Latte.

[Bill from NYC]

That is what happens when you sign a top pick.  You have to pay them big money.  Face it--that is what happens in the NFL today and it happens to all teams.  The Pats paid 10M for a CB out for half the season this year.  The Rams are paying close to 7M this year for Kurt Warner who played for the Giants last year and will be with a new team this year!  I'm sure the Bills want to restructure, but that is today's NFL.  He signed a standard contract for a 4th pick in the draft.  At least he plays as opposed to many top 5 picks who are gone from their teams--look at Cleveland.

273455[/snapback]

 

Very good post, in which you raise a legit point.

I guess what bugs me is that the guys you mentioned play at higher paid positions as compared to RT. That, and the fact that they were also major contributors to superbowl wins.

[UConn James]

That is what happens when you sign a top pick.  You have to pay them big money.  Face it--that is what happens in the NFL today and it happens to all teams.  The Pats paid 10M for a CB out for half the season this year.  The Rams are paying close to 7M this year for Kurt Warner who played for the Giants last year and will be with a new team this year!  I'm sure the Bills want to restructure, but that is today's NFL.  He signed a standard contract for a 4th pick in the draft.  At least he plays as opposed to many top 5 picks who are gone from their teams--look at Cleveland.

273455[/snapback]

 

I was going to say something along the same lines.

 

Having a low-round (esp. Top 5) pick is NOT a good position to be in unless you desperately want to screw your cap over. But what really boggles the mind is when teams actually trade up into this area where one fuggin' guy is making $10M/year. You don't do this unless acquiring him guarantees you a Super Bowl, which is problematic in that the draft is a crapshoot.

 

NFL awards the crappiest teams the first picks, thinking this gives them an advantage. Reality is it puts them deeper in the hole. If there's ever incentive for "winning for pride" at the end of a season w/ nothing on the line or making the playoffs, here you go.

[d_wag]

this is why i hate seeing posts stating "we can't afford that guy or this guy".........we can afford anyone we want if we rework williams' contract and get that hit down to a reasonable level.......he is soaking up to much of the cap and should be extended, much like his draftmate peppers did recently to make room for wahle and lucas..........

[1billsfan]

Has anyone asked Donahoe or Williams flat out why this cap figure has not been dealt with? The Bills line is atrocious and obviously are trying desperately to get some quality linemen in here but Mike "major bust" Williams is holding us back. This issue should be front and center until resovled.

[Rico]

I wonder how much MW's contract factors into McKinnie's head... "If that fat slob makes $9mil at RT, then I should make $20 mil at LT."

 

Somehow I think MM and JM will get a "message" to Big Mike really early in training camp this year.

 

If he gets cut do the remaining years bonus money still hit our cap? I think it does. It would be drastic to cut him outright, but at least then if he was "playing" at playing in the NFL it would be mostly on somebody else's dime.

273466[/snapback]

I think MW got the message last year, when JMac kicked his ass non-stop until he finally looked like he belonged as a real NFL tackle. I don't see any more trouble from MW, no way he wants any more of that kinda treatment.

[clumping platelets]

I do not understand why everyone frets over MW's cap number. He was the 4th overall in 2002 and with that comes a contract conmensurate with being the 4th overall. All highly drafted players have escalators tied to minimum playing time/performance. His play in 2004 greatly improved IMO and he's on the cusp of being a top RT. Yes, I leave him there!! There's no rush to re-work his deal to free up cap space. Bills could be waiting for CBA negotiations to change the amortization rules, so a new deal can spread out bonuses over 6 or 7 yrs again as opposed to only 5 yrs now. Bills can find cap space in other ways as they did by guaranteeing Schobel's $2 million roster bonus and saving $1.6 million in order to sign Holcomb and Gandy.

 

I, for one, am not worried

 

 

 

PS: NO! Bills do not need to do a thing in order to draft players. Bills are complicent with the "top 51" rule, thus, they only need to be 1 penny under the cap.

[Mike32282]

I do not understand why everyone frets over MW's cap number. He was the 4th overall in 2002 and with that comes a contract conmensurate with being the 4th overall. All highly drafted players have escalators tied to minimum playing time/performance. His play in 2004 greatly improved IMO and he's on the cusp of being a top RT. Yes, I leave him there!! There's no rush to re-work his deal to free up cap space. Bills could be waiting for CBA negotiations to change the amortization rules, so a new deal can spread out bonuses over 6 or 7 yrs again as opposed to only 5 yrs now. Bills can find cap space in other ways as they did by guaranteeing Schobel's $2 million roster bonus and saving $1.6 million in order to sign Holcomb and Gandy.

 

I, for one, am not worried

PS: NO! Bills do not need to do a thing in order to draft players. Bills are complicent with the "top 51" rule, thus, they only need to be 1 penny under the cap.

273749[/snapback]

 

Thanks for the info, Clump. I admit that I love watching people panic over the cap, but when you calm people down with the cap situation, i can see the posters slowly walk away from the ledges.

[dave mcbride]

I am bothered about his compensation as well and I keep posting about it.

 

I know we could free-up some money now by restructuring his contract, but do we really want to?  I guess if we could do it in a way that would still allow us to cut him in a year or two without making the cap hit worse, than I would do it.  But I don't think this is possible because as a part of a restructuring he would likely get a new cash bonus.

 

I also don't think he is going to take significantly less money per year on average in the new years of an extension even if he gets a cash bonus now. 

 

The real question is whether his contract was standard for where and when he was picked (including escalators) or did we screw it up.

 

If this is a standard contract, there is no way I would want to draft in the top ten (or maybe the top 20) in a draft.

273541[/snapback]

 

there is no need to restructure if the bills remain comfortably under the cap, which the bills are. restructuring may create cap space this year, but as far as i can see, that's not eve necessary because the bills don't seem to want any of the higher profile free agents and remain comfortably under the cap. restructuring will, however, create problems later. you may think williams isn't worth it, but that's not really in issue - what matters is the impact on the entire cap scenario, and right now that's negligible. also, remember that the bills don't have to pay a first round pick this year.

[1billsfan]

You think we have it bad? Washington is spending 9.3 million cap dollars in 2005 on Lavernous Coles who's now a New York Jet. 25% of the Skins cap is being spent on former players. Ouch!...

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/sports/2005...20841-3835r.htm