Sammy who?

[BringBackOrton]

2 hours ago, Buffalo30 said:

He didn't act like he wanted to be here.  I don't think he would resign here.  So, you would've never seen the top talent the guy had after paying two 1st round picks for him and a 4th and gotten nothing as he left in free agency.  I'd be screaming at the front office.  I'm glad they got something for him.  If Gaines resigns (which is possible as he looks like a solid fit in this scheme) and the second round pick becomes a starter, we fill two needs instead of filling none and Sammy leaves.  We gotta be a little realistic, the guy wasn't happy here. 

Sammy in two years may be a very different individual.

Edited December 30, 2017 by jmc12290

[CommonCents]

1 minute ago, jmc12290 said:

Gaines is underperforming too. Or do you like paying top end CB to China dolls hurt every other week?

Top end CB? The guy makes half a million a year. 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Commonsense said:

Top end CB? The guy makes half a million a year. 

What's he gonna make next year?

[CommonCents]

Just now, jmc12290 said:

What's he gonna make next year?

What's that matter? He was a throw in on the trade and actually played decent enough to price himself out of Buffalo. 

 

He still won't come close to top corner money, if he gets 8m average and about 20 guaranteed I'd consider it. If I had my way they would have paid Bouye FWIW. That was my tantrum.

[Magox]

7 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Gaines is underperforming too. Or do you like paying top end CB to China dolls hurt every other week?

 

No he is not.  Here is a stat for you, when Gaines starts we are 7-3, when he doesn't we are 1-4.  And yes, Gaines has been a major contributor for our defense.  His problem of course has been his health, he does appear to be brittle, similar to the pre madona Watkins, except Watkins hasn't even earned the right to be a pre madona, his production throughout his NFL career has been lackluster.   He had one really good 9 game stretch and aside from that, he's been absent.  

 

I don't get why you guys stick up for this guy, he's not likable, he never endeared himself to fans, he wasn't liked by some of his teammates and simply put he didn't even come close to living up to his draft status.  It was the biggest mistake that Whaley did, giving up an additional first rounder when he could have selected 4 other guys that ended up being better than him.   What a costly mistake by Whaley.

[Green Lightning]

20 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

 

Feel better?  

 

Actually I do.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Green Lightning said:

 

Actually I do.

 

Good. I'm happy for you.

[BringBackOrton]

48 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

No he is not.  Here is a stat for you, when Gaines starts we are 7-3, when he doesn't we are 1-4.  And yes, Gaines has been a major contributor for our defense.  His problem of course has been his health, he does appear to be brittle, similar to the pre madona Watkins, except Watkins hasn't even earned the right to be a pre madona, his production throughout his NFL career has been lackluster.   He had one really good 9 game stretch and aside from that, he's been absent.  

 

I don't get why you guys stick up for this guy, he's not likable, he never endeared himself to fans, he wasn't liked by some of his teammates and simply put he didn't even come close to living up to his draft status.  It was the biggest mistake that Whaley did, giving up an additional first rounder when he could have selected 4 other guys that ended up being better than him.   What a costly mistake by Whaley.

I meant "underperforming" in relation to his health. He's missed WAY too much time.

 

I don't like Watkins, the person. Watkins the football player has a ton of talent. I don't hold OBJ against him because I don't have a time machine. Its that simple.

56 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

What's that matter? He was a throw in on the trade and actually played decent enough to price himself out of Buffalo. 

 

He still won't come close to top corner money, if he gets 8m average and about 20 guaranteed I'd consider it. If I had my way they would have paid Bouye FWIW. That was my tantrum.

Because if Gaines is a one year rental, than we didn't get a starter for long. And if we pay him, then all the cap savings are null and void.

 

Thats why it matters.

[Elite Poster]

Such an incredibly dumb thread. 

[What a Tuel]

10 hours ago, JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS said:

Not making the playoffs because of one dropped pass at the end of the Carolina game could be a tough pill to swallow.

 

 

Once again, that pass was not Zay Jones (a rookies) fault. Tyrod Taylor should have hit Jones for the go ahead TD. I will admit Sammy Watkins probably comes down with it. But I hate this stigma that Zay Jones gave away the Carolina game. It was 90% Tyrod. 10% Zay. Tyrod puts that ball where it may not even be a TD despite Jones being wide open.

7 hours ago, Cynical said:

 

I think it's more known than unknown.

 

Back in October/November, Watkins did an interview with USA today, and he admitted he is still struggling with reading defensive coverages.

Just recently, he admitted Goff, at times, had to explain to him, in the huddle, some of the offensive concepts of a called play.

 

This is not a good look for a 4th year WR. If he's still struggling with the mental part of the game, his only asset is his speed = Decoy ability.

 

Source? I cannot find a USA Today article that says this.

Edited December 30, 2017 by What a Tuel

[Bill from NYC]

15 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

You could say this about TT too, but you don't, because you like him.

No, I actually cannot say this about TT. We used 2 first round picks and a fourth to get Sammy. This, on a team with quarterback issue. That (to me) is a virtual textbook definition of a wasted draft pick(s).

 

TT cost us virtually nothing, and it's not about whether or not I "like" him. Obviously I don't despise him the way you appear to. I find him to be an exciting player who probably has enough talent to take a team to the playoffs. Sadly, I don't think that he makes his reads fast enough to be a top 10 qb in this league.

I have followed football for close to 50 years but I don't know enough about qb play to say for sure whether or not coaching can help this to a large degree. I tend to think not.

 

I am all about drafting a quarterback in 2018. I also want to draft OL and DL. I hope that it happens but the Bills tend to focus on defensive backs and running backs in the draft. This is what is to blame for the Bills not making the playoffs to a much larger degree than is TT. Sadly, it seems to never end.

 

Oh, and starting Peterman was one of the dumbest coaching moves I have ever seen.

 

Happy New Year Bro!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[KW95 - JA17]

21 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

No, I actually cannot say this about TT. We used 2 first round picks and a fourth to get Sammy. This, on a team with quarterback issue. That (to me) is a virtual textbook definition of a wasted draft pick(s).

 

TT cost us virtually nothing, and it's not about whether or not I "like" him. Obviously I don't despise him the way you appear to. I find him to be an exciting player who probably has enough talent to take a team to the playoffs. Sadly, I don't think that he makes his reads fast enough to be a top 10 qb in this league.

I have followed football for close to 50 years but I don't know enough about qb play to say for sure whether or not coaching can help this to a large degree. I tend to think not.

 

I am all about drafting a quarterback in 2018. I also want to draft OL and DL. I hope that it happens but the Bills tend to focus on defensive backs and running backs in the draft. This is what is to blame for the Bills not making the playoffs to a much larger degree than is TT. Sadly, it seems to never end.

 

Oh, and starting Peterman was one of the dumbest coaching moves I have ever seen.

 

Happy New Year Bro!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Terrible decision to start Peterman in the win against the Colts

[The Now Moment]

9 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

Sammy in two years may be a very different individual.

Sammy's option was for 13.2 million dollars and he was disgruntled.  On top of that, he played in only 8 games the year before and 13 the year before that showing his injury concerns. That's a lot of stuff going on to just hope he figures it out and becomes happy.  

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Buffalo30 said:

Sammy's option was for 13.2 million dollars and he was disgruntled.  On top of that, he played in only 8 games the year before and 13 the year before that showing his injury concerns. That's a lot of stuff going on to just hope he figures it out and becomes happy.  

How many games did his replacement play?

[The Now Moment]

5 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

How many games did his replacement play?

Hindsight is 20/10 isn't it.  Yes, it was unfortunate that those players got hurt but those players injuries weren't factors at the time of the deal.  C'mon you're smarter than that.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Buffalo30

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Buffalo30 said:

Hindsight is 20/10 isn't it.  Yes, it was unfortunate that those players got hurt but those players injuries weren't factors at the time of the deal.  C'mon you're smarter than that.

Jordan Matthews had 2 injuries that hampered him in 2016. Including a knee; the same thing that put him on IR this year.

 

The larger point being that all players get unlucky and get injured. We had debates here all the time, would 8 games of Watkins be better than 14 games of Matthews? I argued yes, to that. And it ended up being 16 games of Watkins to 10 games of Matthews.

[The Now Moment]

9 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Jordan Matthews had 2 injuries that hampered him in 2016. Including a knee; the same thing that put him on IR this year.

 

The larger point being that all players get unlucky and get injured. We had debates here all the time, would 8 games of Watkins be better than 14 games of Matthews? I argued yes, to that. And it ended up being 16 games of Watkins to 10 games of Matthews.

Who knows if Watkins would have stayed healthy here.  That's a big assumption. Tyrod threw Sammy into some tough situations were he came out hurt.  Just look at the steelers game when he came up hurt.  Threw a slant right into two defenders that hit Sammy and he came up hurt.  You can't say he'd have played 16 games this year here. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have but you can't say he would have with all the injuries he had over the last few years here.

 

Either way, we knew Matthews wasn't Sammy's replacement.  He's a slot guy.  Again, at that point when they made the move, I think they did the right move based on all of the factors I mentioned earlier and they grabbed a player who played well although hurt and a potential future starter.  

Edited December 30, 2017 by Buffalo30

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Buffalo30 said:

Who knows if Watkins would have stayed healthy here.  That's a big assumption. Tyrod threw Sammy into some tough situations were he came out hurt.  Just look at the steelers game when he came up hurt.  Threw a slant right into two defenders that hit Sammy and he came up hurt.  You can't say he'd have played 16 games this year here. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have but you can't say he would have with all the injuries he had over the last few years here.

 

Either way, we knew Matthews wasn't Sammy's replacement.  He's a slot guy.  

Matthews was widely regarded as a more productive and better player on this board at the time of this trade.

[The Now Moment]

4 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Matthews was widely regarded as a more productive and better player on this board at the time of this trade.

Apologies.  I never thought he was his replacement.  He's a slot guy.  Don't just assume I'm in with that group though.  We did the right thing moving Sammy before he left and we would've been left empty handed.  

 

Imagine what this board would have done if he left in free agency after this season and we were trying to resign him.  We spent two first rounders and a fourth on him and would've gotten really nothing for him in the end.  That would've been a punch in the face.  I'm hopeful that they resign Gaines who is a tackling corner.  Hopefully he can straighten out the injuries and we resign him to a decent contract with playing time incentives or something so we don't get screwed if he gets hurt.  If he's resigned and the second round pick pans out...that's pretty darn good in my opinion.

[BringBackOrton]

21 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

Apologies.  I never thought he was his replacement.  He's a slot guy.  Don't just assume I'm in with that group though.  We did the right thing moving Sammy before he left and we would've been left empty handed.  

 

Imagine what this board would have done if he left in free agency after this season and we were trying to resign him.  We spent two first rounders and a fourth on him and would've gotten really nothing for him in the end.  That would've been a punch in the face.  I'm hopeful that they resign Gaines who is a tackling corner.  Hopefully he can straighten out the injuries and we resign him to a decent contract with playing time incentives or something so we don't get screwed if he gets hurt.  If he's resigned and the second round pick pans out...that's pretty darn good in my opinion.

Separate the cost from the player.  The picks were from 3 years ago.  Scrambling to get value because you spent a 2014 1st is silly.

 

We could have had Watkins for 2 seasons, AAV less than $9M over that time, with a decent chance of re-signing him. That's not that bad.

 

Look at you hoping Gaines turns around his injury history, willing to shell out big bucks to him in spite of it.  I have a question. Why is that different from Sammy?  If Gaines walks for "nothing," or if KB walks for "nothing," what did we really gain?