universal basic income question

[westerndecline]

7 minutes ago, /dev/null said:

 

Libertarians believe the people and society in general are better off when individuals are left to their own devices and not subject to a central authority

 

The UBI subjects everyone to a central authority that both distributes the income as it sees fit and compels everyone to participate in a system they may or may not agree with

I agree with u, but could it be used as negotiating to save money and end the old welfare state

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, westerndecline said:

I agree

I think there are libertarians that take individual rights to a level not based in reality sometimes

 

 

 

83% of libertarians mainly want to smoke pot.

[TakeYouToTasker]

40 minutes ago, westerndecline said:

I agree with u, but could it be used as negotiating to save money and end the old welfare state

That's a libertarian reform of a socialist platform, which is akin to saying "socialism would be great if it were run by libertarians"; which is not much different than any other socialist who comes along spouting that the only reason Marxism hasn't succeeded is because they weren't put in charge of it.

[Azalin]

5 hours ago, westerndecline said:

Lobbyists for example capturing government

 

A specific example might be sec members giving triple a ratings to cdo's that were really c rated or way worse.

 

Another example could be military industrial complex

 

Or private prisons lobbying to keep the drug war going.

 

Solyndra is another example of green energy contracts given out by the very congress tht invested in Solyndra

 

I.e. crony capitalism

 

Another example would be slave wages and slave like conditions and apple taking advantage of a totalitarian government

 

 

It goes in both directions

 

Private interets using government, government using itself or private industry to create corruption

 

1) How can lobbyist "capture" government?

 

2) Unless I'm mistaken, the SEC was created by congress in 1934, and is not considered a private enterprise.

 

3) A military industrial complex would by definition be comprised of both private industry and the Pentagon. Not exactly "privatized power".

 

4) What do private prisons lobby for? Keeping drugs illegal?  Maybe they do, maybe not. Does that count as "privatized power getting out of hand"? I'm not sure it does.

 

5) Solyndra? Really? That was congress AND Obama, and it was pure payoff, not "crony capitalism".

 

6) Apple's exploitation of labor happens largely in China, and for some reason most of the left doesn't give a $#%@ about that. DR has a history of detailing Apple's transgression here on this site, which you can find easily using the search function.

 

Your final statement, "Private interets (sic) using government, government using itself or private industry to create corruption" is too vague, too nebulous to address without clarification.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Azalin

[westerndecline]

2 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

That's a libertarian reform of a socialist platform, which is akin to saying "socialism would be great if it were run by libertarians"; which is not much different than any other socialist who comes along spouting that the only reason Marxism hasn't succeeded is because they weren't put in charge of it.

I don't agree with ubi, but I don't see dems going anywhere and somehow someway we need a balanced budget....

 

That's the only reason I'm interested in a ubi

[westerndecline]

4 minutes ago, Azalin said:

 

1) How can lobbyist "capture" government?

 

2) Unless I'm mistaken, the SEC was created by congress in 1934, and is not considered a private enterprise.

 

3) A military industrial complex would by definition be comprised of both private industry and the Pentagon. Not exactly "privatized power".

 

4) What do private prisons lobby for? Keeping drugs illegal?  Maybe they do, maybe not. Does that count as "privatized power getting out of hand"? I'm not sure it does.

 

5) Solyndra? Really? That was congress AND Obama, and it was pure payoff, not "crony capitalism".

 

6) Apple's exploitation of labor hap[pens largely in China, and for some reason most of the left doesn't give a $#%@ about that. DR has a history of detailing Apple's transgression here on this site, which you can find easily using the search function.

 

Your final statement, "Private interets (sic) using government, government using itself or private industry to create corruption" is too vague, too nebulous to address without clarification.

 

 

1) was a statement with examples

 

2)The sec set the fake ratings to sell bull **** cdo's....

 

The sec was doing this based on bribery. 

3) yes it's both

4) if jail is being used to justify the existence of jobs, well... That's pretty evil bud.... Good Lord

5)Solyndra was a private industry....

It was bull **** green jobs push so government congress ppl could fill their pockets. U could argue this is an example of both private and public institutions stealing taxpayers $$$$

 

6)Apple is pretty evil and so is any other company using slave like conditions

 

 There's no debate there

 

[unbillievable]

The UBI will eliminate Welfare the same way raising minimum wage does...

[row_33]

Why not get rid of the police and put fiddlers on every street corner?

 

 

[westerndecline]

26 minutes ago, row_33 said:

Why not get rid of the police and put fiddlers on every street corner?

 

 

There's a lot we don't need the police for

[keepthefaith]

15 hours ago, westerndecline said:

I don't agree with ubi, but I don't see dems going anywhere and somehow someway we need a balanced budget....

 

That's the only reason I'm interested in a ubi

 

I'm all for efficiency and cost reduction in government.  If UBI were put into place, it would make it even easier for leftist politicians to run on a platform of "giving people more" through UBI increases and many voters would take the bait.  Before you know it we'd be in worse shape than we are now. 

 

We need term limits on benefits for the able bodied and able mined and we need to reduce SS/Medicaid/medicare spending or fund them better without further burdening employers.  We also need to cut discretionary spending. 

59 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

The UBI will eliminate Welfare the same way raising minimum wage does...

Artificially raising wages leads to more unemployment and thus more entitlement costs. 

 

Chicago has voted in a rising minimum wage and yesterday a friend of mine ordered 2 beers via room service at a hotel and the beer was delivered by a robot. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by keepthefaith

[westerndecline]

1 hour ago, unbillievable said:

The UBI will eliminate Welfare the same way raising minimum wage does...

How?

40 minutes ago, keepthefaith said:

 

I'm all for efficiency and cost reduction in government.  If UBI were put into place, it would make it even easier for leftist politicians to run on a platform of "giving people more" through UBI increases and many voters would take the bait.  Before you know it we'd be in worse shape than we are now. 

 

We need term limits on benefits for the able bodied and able mined and we need to reduce SS/Medicaid/medicare spending or fund them better without further burdening employers.  We also need to cut discretionary spending. 

Artificially raising wages leads to more unemployment and thus more entitlement costs. 

 

Chicago has voted in a rising minimum wage and yesterday a friend of mine ordered 2 beers via room service at a hotel and the beer was delivered by a robot. 

Through green energy and ai, u could see many necessities becoming so low to literal cost of zero. This would really eliminate the need for a ubi.

 

Its already impossible to starve in this country. In fact poor ppl are HUGE

[unbillievable]

6 hours ago, westerndecline said:

How?

7 hours ago, keepthefaith said:

Chicago has voted in a rising minimum wage and yesterday a friend of mine ordered 2 beers via room service at a hotel and the beer was delivered by a robot. 

 

Everyone who proposes a UBI system tries to paint it as a program that will eliminate Welfare, the same way they say that raising the minimum wage will push people above the poverty level; which it has never done in history; but they still say it will.

 

UBI will just be another unsustainable program on top of the existing waste we already fund.

[Greybeard]

On 12/2/2017 at 7:49 PM, westerndecline said:

End all welfare, ss, Medicare, Medicaid, ebt, cash assistance, everything.

 

Also you would obviously end all bureaucracy with those programs

 

Cut everything else 20%

 

In return , the Starbucks , whining libtards get say 1200 a month ubi

 

Good idea?

           When you eliminate welfare, you will have to increase the cops or military to maintain order.   After years of people being taken care of, people think it is their right.  UBI is just welfare x100.  

         And that is assuming you can get anyone who is willing to be a cop or go into the millitary to do that.  See Baltimore.

 

       Welfare should never have been for life.  It should have been a safety net for those who ran into a bad luck streak.

[4merper4mer]

UBI makes sense but it should be higher.  Maybe $500k per year including minors.  Their parents get the money until they turn 18.

[Magox]

UBI is a very interesting topic that should be explored further.   It's just a matter of time before many people are replaced by robotics, software etc.      

 

This topic has been discussed in another thread, you may want to search for it and read through some of the comments.   By the way, UBI can be constructed in such a manner that it would be less of a "Welfare" sort of program than what already exists.    I'm conflicted on my thoughts of this subject because on one hand I think if drawn up properly it would encourage work, on the other hand I have a fatalistic sort of view of the future in regards to working class folks.   I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

[row_33]

"B y the way, UBI can be constructed in such a manner that it would be less of a "Welfare" sort of program than what already exists. "

 

EVERY liberal program that has wound up destroying the underclass was described as this kind of utopia.

 

 

 

[westerndecline]

What about a work program instead of just welfare for nothing?

 

 

Say u get a bad streak,

 

U ar least can work a government job ( lots of things ppl hate, low pay)

 

That way you would constantly looking for something better

 

Not sure why thts such a bad idea

[Nanker]

On 12/2/2017 at 7:49 PM, westerndecline said:

End all welfare, ss, Medicare, Medicaid, ebt, cash assistance, everything.

 

Also you would obviously end all bureaucracy with those programs

 

Cut everything else 20%

 

In return , the Starbucks , whining libtards get say 1200 a month ubi

 

Good idea?

No, not at all.

The average SS payment per month for a man aged 66 in 2015 was $1,504.49, and for a woman the average was $1,163.45. 

The difference is primarily due to women earning less which is a reflection also of their typically fewer years in the active workforce.

SS Data Tables.

 

Additionally, Medicare Part B and D are means tested. Part B premiums ($134 per month, $1,608 per year) are withheld from all SS payments, as is any Income Related Monthly Adjustment Amount for both Part

B (medical) and Part D (prescriptions) based on your previous year's tax returns. Some lucky individuals  pay over $369.40 per month ($4,432.80 per year) in those surcharges. 

 

[westerndecline]

1 hour ago, Nanker said:

No, not at all.

The average SS payment per month for a man aged 66 in 2015 was $1,504.49, and for a woman the average was $1,163.45. 

The difference is primarily due to women earning less which is a reflection also of their typically fewer years in the active workforce.

SS Data Tables.

 

Additionally, Medicare Part B and D are means tested. Part B premiums ($134 per month, $1,608 per year) are withheld from all SS payments, as is any Income Related Monthly Adjustment Amount for both Part

B (medical) and Part D (prescriptions) based on your previous year's tax returns. Some lucky individuals  pay over $369.40 per month ($4,432.80 per year) in those surcharges. 

 

Leftist baby boomers deserve nothing

[row_33]

We need a social safety net, you pay your taxes into it in case you (god help you) might have to draw on it to survive

 

just like you put into car and health insurance in case of a catastrophe that you hopefully never have to draw on

 

and to those in the prime of their life who can't imagine they won't be a Nietzschean SupermanUberMan when they are 100, things can happen the next time you cross the street.