Would you be against the Bills bringing in Eli AND drafting a QB in the first round?

[fridge]

3 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

On what planet is Tyrod averaging 224 yards a game????....he's averaging 184 THIS year! He only has 2 other years and NEITHER of them were more than 216 yards a game.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/tyrod-taylor-player-stats

 

They like to add in his rushing stats with his passing so it makes his yards total less ridiculous.

 

Before anyone chimes in... I understand the value in his rushing ability, and it's easily his best strength - not to be overlooked. I also don't see people coupling Brady's passing and rushing stats.

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

For the 'we want better than a .500 QB' crew, Eli is 110-100 in his career (0.524), Tyrod's 21-18 (0.538). And it could be easily argued that Eli has benefitted from better defenses over that span than Tyrod's had backing him up.

 

Speaking career numbers: 

Eli: 59.8% Completions, 238.1 Pass Yards per Game, 7.01 YPA, 229.8 Total Yards per Game, 4.6% TD%, 3.1% INT%, 83.8 Passer Rating, 5.93 ANY/A

TT: 61.5% Completions, 202.1 Pass Yards per Game, 7.19 YPA, 224.2 Total Yards per Game, 4.4% TD%, 1.3% INT%, 93.5 Passer Rating, 6.34 ANY/A

 

Clearly Eli has 2 rings and is a Super Bowl MVP, but those numbers are awfully close considering one was drafted 1st overall and 1 was a 6th rounder.

Fake news.

 

We have never finished over .500 since TT came here.

 

The Giants have finished over .500 7 seasons since Eli.

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Not me (and I have said Eli is a HOF player). I just try to provide perspective. I’m not trying to be a jerk, just to provide perspective. Hokie and section122 have done a great job of it. There are people here that legitimately think Taylor is terrible but a blind resume next to Eli and he compares favorably. He is much, much closer to Eli and guys like that than he is EJ, Edwards and the other bums we’ve played. Obviously Eli has those 2 massive victories. 

That's why nobody in the NFL who knows anything does "blind resumes."  Because it's useless.

 

No GM in the NFL cares if Tyrod has a minuscule difference in TD% compared to Eli.  

[BigBuff423]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I brought facts. He completes a higher percentage of balls. He throws TDs at a higher rate, INTs at a lower rate. He averages more yards per attempt and per completion. Which “passing” metrics are you using to support that? Or is it “eye test” and “your perception?” I am just giving you facts. 

 

Eli passed for over 4,000 yards and 26 TDs last year....

Tyrod, over 3,000 and 17 TDs...

 

That's 1,000 yards of Offense and 9 TDs different

Tyrod took 42 sacks

Eli took 21 sacks

That's HALF the amount of sacks....think of the yardage, think of the downs Tyrod took those sacks and how it impacted the game

Eli's average yds per game: 251

Tyrod's average yds per game: 201 ---- that's half a football field of difference, ON AVERAGE. 

So, on average, Tyrod have the other team half the distance to the goal line....

 

If you like Tyrod's running ability, so be it...if you like the dimension it brings to the Offense, fine....but to argue that he and Eli Manning are even in the same general area regarding QB ability, is asinine to me...

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, fridge said:

 

They like to add in his rushing stats with his passing so it makes his yards total less ridiculous.

 

Before anyone chimes in... I understand the value in his rushing ability, and it's easily his best strength - not to be overlooked. I also don't see people coupling Brady's passing and rushing stats.

That last part isn’t true. Everyone looks at the whole picture. That’s why Russell Wilson scores high. That’s why advanced metrics are now the norm and passing yards are for simpletons. The more data incorporated the more accurate the true picture is. That’s why QBR is better than QB rating. It factors in rushing yards (I think) and game situations. A throw in a 2 point game in the 4th is weighted heavier than a 1st quarter throw in a 3 score game.

4 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Fake news.

 

We have never finished over .500 since TT came here.

 

The Giants have finished over .500 7 seasons since Eli.

That's why nobody in the NFL who knows anything does "blind resumes."  Because it's useless.

 

No GM in the NFL cares if Tyrod has a minuscule difference in TD% compared to Eli.  

So you are holding EJ’s 3 starts and Peterman’s one against Tyrod?!? Really????!?!?

[BringBackOrton]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That last part isn’t true. Everyone looks at the whole picture. That’s why Russell Wilson scores high. That’s why advanced metrics are now the norm and passing yards are for simpletons. The more data incorporated the more accurate the true picture is. That’s why QBR is better than QB rating. It factors in rushing yards (I think) and game situations. A throw in a 2 point game in the 4th is weighted heavier than a 1st quarter throw in a 3 score game.

So you are holding EJ’s 3 starts and Peterman’s one against Tyrod?!? Really????!?!?

Eli never got hurt or played so poorly he got benched for a fifth round rookie.

 

So, yes.

[BuffaloHokie13]

7 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

On what planet is Tyrod averaging 224 yards a game????....he's averaging 184 THIS year! He only has 2 other years and NEITHER of them were more than 216 yards a game.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/tyrod-taylor-player-stats

For his career he's at 202.1 Passing and 224.2 Total yards per game. I assumed you could figure that out by the words immediately following the numbers, but clearly I was mistaken.

 

3 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Fake news.

 

We have never finished over .500 since TT came here.

 

The Giants have finished over .500 7 seasons since Eli.

100% true news. Fake news would be attributing the 4 losses we've sustained without Tyrod to Tyrod's win%.

 

4 minutes ago, fridge said:

They like to add in his rushing stats with his passing so it makes his yards total less ridiculous.

 

Before anyone chimes in... I understand the value in his rushing ability, and it's easily his best strength - not to be overlooked. I also don't see people coupling Brady's passing and rushing stats.

I most certainly do, and have since I started tracking stats. Feel free to check my QB Rating threads from this year. Every QB's passing and rushing stats are accounted for.

If you're curious, Brady's at 263.5 Pass Yards per Game and 265.8 Total Yards per Game over his career.

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

Eli passed for over 4,000 yards and 26 TDs last year....

Tyrod, over 3,000 and 17 TDs...

 

That's 1,000 yards of Offense and 9 TDs different

Tyrod took 42 sacks

Eli took 21 sacks

That's HALF the amount of sacks....think of the yardage, think of the downs Tyrod took those sacks and how it impacted the game

Eli's average yds per game: 251

Tyrod's average yds per game: 201 ---- that's half a football field of difference, ON AVERAGE. 

So, on average, Tyrod have the other team half the distance to the goal line....

 

If you like Tyrod's running ability, so be it...if you like the dimension it brings to the Offense, fine....but to argue that he and Eli Manning are even in the same general area regarding QB ability, is asinine to me...

Yet Tyrod averaged more yards when he attempted a pass and when he completed a pass. If you throw it 6 times and I throw it twice you should have more yards. That’s why not a person in sports cares about gross stats or even uses them. They are a function of opportunity. Efficiency is infinitely more important and every single executive will agree with that.

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

For his career he's at 202.1 Passing and 224.2 Total yards per game. I assumed you could figure that out by the words immediately following the numbers, but clearly I was mistaken.

 

100% true news. Fake news would be attributing the 4 losses we've sustained without Tyrod to Tyrod's win%.

 

I most certainly do, and have since I started tracking stats. Feel free to check my QB Rating threads from this year. Every QB's passing and rushing stats are accounted for.

If you're curious, Brady's at 263.5 Pass Yards per Game and 265.8 Total Yards per Game over his career.

No lie, look it up.  We haven't finished greater than .500 in a season since Doug Marrone.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, jmc12290 said:

Eli never got hurt or played so poorly he got benched for a fifth round rookie.

 

So, yes.

Tyrod missed 2 games due to injury. If you think starting Peterman was a good idea then you’ve said all that you need to say on the QB topic. Quit while you’re behind

[BuffaloHokie13]

Just now, jmc12290 said:

No lie, look it up.  We haven't finished greater than .500 in a season since Doug Marrone.

And yet we are 21-18 when Tyrod plays QB for us.

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

Tyrod missed 2 games due to injury. If you think starting Peterman was a good idea then you’ve said all that you need to say on the QB topic. Quit while you’re behind

Did Eli give his coach temporary insanity and get himself benched for a horrible QB?  Nope!

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, jmc12290 said:

No lie, look it up.  We haven't finished greater than .500 in a season since Doug Marrone.

And Tyrod has won 21 games and lost 18. The other Bills QBs have won 0 and lost 4. If anything that’s a big plus for Taylor. Arguing otherwise is like arguing that ice isn’t cold.

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

And yet we are 21-18 when Tyrod plays QB for us.

Fella, we could be 16-0 when Tyrod plays for us, but if that mean we have 16 years of going less than 8-8, I don't particularly care.

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, jmc12290 said:

Did Eli give his coach temporary insanity and get himself benched for a horrible QB?  Nope!

Ha ha, how does the coach look for that decision? I asked if you agreed with it at the time? Don’t lie because we can dig it up.

[BigBuff423]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

For his career he's at 202.1 Passing and 224.2 Total yards per game. I assumed you could figure that out by the words immediately following the numbers, but clearly I was mistaken.

 

100% true news. Fake news would be attributing the 4 losses we've sustained without Tyrod to Tyrod's win%.

 

I most certainly do, and have since I started tracking stats. Feel free to check my QB Rating threads from this year. Every QB's passing and rushing stats are accounted for.

If you're curious, Brady's at 263.5 Pass Yards per Game and 265.8 Total Yards per Game over his career.

 

You assumed wrong when you speak of QBs....do we take into account WRs passing yards when we say total yards per game? I doubt the average fan does....and you can "blame" me for not knowing your intentions but, I think the error is clear. It does not change that Tyrod is not, nor will he ever be, close to Eli's capability...even in Eli's current state.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Ha ha, how does the coach look for that decision? I asked if you agreed with it at the time? Don’t lie because we can dig it up.

Of course I did. I still do.

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, BigBuff423 said:

 

You assumed wrong when you speak of QBs....do we take into account WRs passing yards when we say total yards per game? I doubt the average fan does....and you can "blame" me for not knowing your intentions but, I think the error is clear. It does not change that Tyrod is not, nor will he ever be, close to Eli's capability...even in Eli's current state.

Good thing we are more intelligent than average fans. Including data doesn’t make an argument less accurate!! That’s why surveys get large sample sizes. The more information that is included the truer the results.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

And Tyrod has won 21 games and lost 18. The other Bills QBs have won 0 and lost 4. If anything that’s a big plus for Taylor. Arguing otherwise is like arguing that ice isn’t cold.

 

....yet the drought continues with a barbed wire fence around the "Promised Land"......hmmmm........

[BuffaloHokie13]

Just now, BigBuff423 said:

 

You assumed wrong when you speak of QBs....do we take into account WRs passing yards when we say total yards per game? I doubt the average fan does....and you can "blame" me for not knowing your intentions but, I think the error is clear. It does not change that Tyrod is not, nor will he ever be, close to Eli's capability...even in Eli's current state.

I didn't provide WR stats. What other yards did you expect a QB to get that are positive? Total is exactly that. Passing + Rushing + Receiving - Sack. If I excluded something it wouldn't be total.

[fridge]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Yet Tyrod averaged more yards when he attempted a pass and when he completed a pass. If you throw it 6 times and I throw it twice you should have more yards. That’s why not a person in sports cares about gross stats or even uses them. They are a function of opportunity. Efficiency is infinitely more important and every single executive will agree with that.

 

What in the world does that even mean here?? I'm not trying to operate a business efficiently, I'm a sports fan that wants to see his team look like a modern NFL offense for a change. This is a passing league.  We need to score to win.  We need gross points.  Gross touchdowns.

 

How dumb do you think we are that we don't understand the concept of weighted averages??? People bring up passing yards because Tyrod's famous TD to INT ratio doesn't win you games in the same fashion that Brady's yards and TD's do.

 

BTW - when people cite the passing yards... we're not doing it because we're too dumb to understand "advanced stats". We're doing it because you can just about throw all those advanced stats out the window if your QB isn't a passing threat.

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, jmc12290 said:

Of course I did. I still do.

Then why are you even talking QB?!? That was so absurd at the time and looks worse in hindsight. I didn’t think that was possible. There’s a reason that every football person in the world destroyed the decision. They were right. You were (and are) wrong.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, Bill Murray said:

 

What evidence draws you to this conclusion?

 

He got benched later in the season?

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....yet the drought continues with a barbed wire fence around the "Promised Land"......hmmmm........

We haven’t been to the playoffs in 17 years. How many QBs in that time had a .538 win percentage? I’ll wait....

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Then why are you even talking QB?!? That was so absurd at the time and looks worse in hindsight. I didn’t think that was possible. There’s a reason that every football person in the world destroyed the decision. They were right. You were (and are) wrong.

Nah, TT was playing awful and lacked confidence.  He looked way better against the Chiefs, especially in the first half.

[BigBuff423]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Good thing we are more intelligent than average fans. Including data doesn’t make an argument less accurate!! That’s why surveys get large sample sizes. The more information that is included the truer the results.

 

No, but delineating it properly does...simply indicating passing yards as one measure, rushing yards as another measure, and then adding them together gets you "x" number of yards, which would be the total of both...sort of like showing your work when you were in 5th grade? Remember? 

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, fridge said:

 

What in the world does that even mean here?? I'm not trying to operate a business efficiently, I'm a sports fan that wants to see his team look like a modern NFL offense for a change. This is a passing league.  We need to score to win.  We need gross points.  Gross touchdowns.

 

How dumb do you think we are that we don't understand the concept of weighted averages??? People bring up passing yards because Tyrod's famous TD to INT ratio doesn't win you games in the same fashion that Brady's yards and TD's do.

 

BTW - when people cite the passing yards... we're not doing it because we're too dumb to understand "advanced stats". We're doing it because you can just about throw all those advanced stats out the window if your QB isn't a passing threat.

What’s Brady’s TD:INT ratio? That’s a really odd point to try to make. FWIW it’s 26:3 (almost 9:1), you are the one that is arguing that doesn’t matter. 

 

That isn’t true at all. There is no correlation between winning and passing yards. The numbers are all laid out in the 300 yard passing game thread. It is irrelevant. The stat that tells a story is opposing teams averaging under 24 PPG. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[BigBuff423]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

I didn't provide WR stats. What other yards did you expect a QB to get that are positive? Total is exactly that. Passing + Rushing + Receiving - Sack. If I excluded something it wouldn't be total.

 

Which is irrelevant....and again, what I "expected" is not the issue...if you give out total yards, and don't express how you reached as much, your presumptions are your issue, not the readers'.....

 

It still does not change the argument that Tyrod will never be anything close to Eli in terms of a good QB. Athlete is a different concern, Tyrod is very clearly the dominant athlete, but he does not possess the tools to be a great QB, like Eli. 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Nah, TT was playing awful and lacked confidence.  He looked way better against the Chiefs, especially in the first half.

He was the same player he’s always been!! He was bad against the Saints but was the only player on offense the week before. I’ve heard it was Dennison’s decision and if so I bet that he isn’t back. That’s how bad it was.

[billsredneck1]

3 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

Eli won't come here.  He'll stay with the Giants, retire or rejoin Coughlin.

can you imagine if he was released and on his way to jacksonville? that team would be an instant sb contender right now.

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

No, but delineating it properly does...simply indicating passing yards as one measure, rushing yards as another measure, and then adding them together gets you "x" number of yards, which would be the total of both...sort of like showing your work when you were in 5th grade? Remember? 

That’s fair but the story is told with the combination of everything good and bad. The more that can be included the more accurate the info is.

[BigBuff423]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s fair but the story is told with the combination of everything good and bad. The more that can be included the more accurate the info is.

 

I didn't take issue with the numbers, but rather that they were misleading....especially as it pertains to QBs. If you say QB John has total yds / game of "X", 99% of people will jump right to passing yards, because in general that's how QBs are measured - in passing yds / passing TDs / INTs / and completion %.....but, yes, including the rushing yards is part of the QB evaluation when you consider Tyrod, even though we may disagree about its intrinsic value to the position. 

 

Appreciate the discourse, #GoBills

[BuffaloHokie13]

8 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

Which is irrelevant....and again, what I "expected" is not the issue...if you give out total yards, and don't express how you reached as much, your presumptions are your issue, not the readers'.....

 

It still does not change the argument that Tyrod will never be anything close to Eli in terms of a good QB. Athlete is a different concern, Tyrod is very clearly the dominant athlete, but he does not possess the tools to be a great QB, like Eli. 

Fine. I'll show my work. I felt silly pointing out that no established starter has lost more yards on the ground than Eli.

Tyrod's Career Averages:

Pass Yards per Game: 202.1

Rush Yards per Game: 36.3

Sack Yards per Game: -14.2

Total: 224.2

 

Eli's Career Averages:

Pass Yards per Game: 238.8

Rush Yards per Game: 2.5

Sack Yards per Game: -11.5

Total: 229.8

2 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

I didn't take issue with the numbers, but rather that they were misleading....especially as it pertains to QBs. If you say QB John has total yds / game of "X", 99% of people will jump right to passing yards, because in general that's how QBs are measured - in passing yds / passing TDs / INTs / and completion %.....but, yes, including the rushing yards is part of the QB evaluation when you consider Tyrod, even though we may disagree about its intrinsic value to the position. 

 

Appreciate the discourse, #GoBills

I literally included Pass Yards right before Total Yards. Who reads pass yards then reads a different number and assumes it's pass yards again?!? There's nothing remotely deceptive about the post. I included pass yards separately and specifically.

Edited November 30, 2017 by BuffaloHokie13

[fridge]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

What’s Brady’s TD:INT ratio? That’s a really odd point to try to make. FWIW it’s 26:3 (almost 9:1), you are the one that is arguing that doesn’t matter. 

 

That isn’t true at all. There is no correlation between winning and passing yards. The numbers are all laid out in the 300 yard passing game thread. It is irrelevant. The stat that tells a story is opposing teams averaging under 24 PPG. 

 

This is my last reply on this topic because I've had this exact conversation too many times, but I never once said 300 yards, and I have no fascination with that number.

 

Taylor throws for an average of like 180. We have no passing attack.  All team stats during his tenure confirm this. We consistently finish in the bottom half or even last in passing.  Without a passing attack you cannot win games consistently.  You need to rely on crazy good defense (sound like the beginning of the season?) or an insane rushing attack (sound like the previous 2 years where we literally led the league in rushing) just to win enough to be around .500 without a legitimate passing attack.

 

I don't care at all about advanced stats, which considering how analytical I am in all other facets of my life, should tell you all you need to know about why I watch sports.  It's not to read the numbers on the back of a card.  It's to watch these athletes perform, come together as a team, and win games while representing Buffalo, NY.

[BigBuff423]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Fine. I'll show my work. I felt silly pointing out that no established starter has lost more yards on the ground than Eli.

Tyrod's Career Averages:

Pass Yards per Game: 202.1

Rush Yards per Game: 36.3

Sack Yards per Game: -14.2

Total: 224.2

 

Eli's Career Averages:

Pass Yards per Game: 238.8

Rush Yards per Game: 2.5

Sack Yards per Game: -11.5

Total: 229.8

I literally included Pass Yards right before Total Yards. Who reads pass yards then reads a different number and assumes it's pass yards again?!? There's nothing remotely deceptive about the post. I included pass yards separately and specifically.

 

Thank you. It is appreciated.

 

However, it begins a different part about the significance of those stats. Obviously, Tyrod is much, much more elusive and fast, but it would be great to know ( and I don't think anyone has taken the time to do this) how many of those rushing yards were due to him waiting too long in the pocket? When he was essentially forced to run because he didn't get the ball out on time? In Eli's case, nearly everyone of those kinds will turn into an incomplete pass or a sack, so that's just something I wonder....not asking you specifically to know that or find out, I'm just more curious....and it doesn't have to be Eli, it can be any other standard QB who doesn't run much or often.

[Marty McFly]

Just draft a qb and build a team around him. If were gonna sign retread QBs we might as well stick with tyrod.

[BringBackOrton]

15 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He was the same player he’s always been!! He was bad against the Saints but was the only player on offense the week before. I’ve heard it was Dennison’s decision and if so I bet that he isn’t back. That’s how bad it was.

TT goes through OC's like toilet paper.

[Happy]

23 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

TT goes through OC's like toilet paper.

So head coaching changes, as well as their decision to fire an OC during the season, has nothing to do with this?  I doubt Tyrod tells the FO "This OC sucks, get rid of him." 

Have to agree with Kirby that Tyrod hasn't changed, he's still the same player he was two years ago.

[SoTier]

3 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

forget about eli man. as for drafting a QB in round one, they better.

 

What if there's no QB worth drafting left by the time the Bills pick in the first round?  To say, "they better draft a QB in the first round" without even knowing which QBs will actually be availabe for the draft seems foolhardy to me and smacks of just drafting a QB to please the fans.  The Bills, of course, will probably do it ... they seem to have drafted Losman and Manuel for just that reason.

 

FYI: between  2000 and 2015, there have been as many as 4 QBs go in the first round but only in 2004 did as many as 3 of the first rounders become top QBs.  2005 (Smith, Rodgers), 2008 (Ryan, Flacco), and 2012 (Luck, Tannehill) had 2 first rounders who were keepers.  You might include 2015 (Winston, Mariota) as well but neither one has made enough progress to say they "top QBs" right now.  2002, 2006, 2007, 2010, and 2013 didn't produce any franchise QBs from any round, and 2014 looks to be another dud unless Teddy Bridgewater not only comes back from a devastating injury but also plays significantly better than he did early in his career.

 

 

[unclepete]

Eli is a downgrade from out current QB. And with this oline and his lack of mobility he’d get killed. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

2 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

What if there's no QB worth drafting left by the time the Bills pick in the first round?  To say, "they better draft a QB in the first round" without even knowing which QBs will actually be availabe for the draft seems foolhardy to me and smacks of just drafting a QB to please the fans.  The Bills, of course, will probably do it ... they seem to have drafted Losman and Manuel for just that reason.

 

FYI: between  2000 and 2015, there have been as many as 4 QBs go in the first round but only in 2004 did as many as 3 of the first rounders become top QBs.  2005 (Smith, Rodgers), 2008 (Ryan, Flacco), and 2012 (Luck, Tannehill) had 2 first rounders who were keepers.  You might include 2015 (Winston, Mariota) as well but neither one has made enough progress to say they "top QBs" right now.  2002, 2006, 2007, 2010, and 2013 didn't produce any franchise QBs from any round, and 2014 looks to be another dud unless Teddy Bridgewater not only comes back from a devastating injury but also plays significantly better than he did early in his career.

 

 

 

they'll draft a QB.