I'm curious in regards to Tyrod's skill set

[jr1]

he struggles when the team is down by more than 10 points. If you have him you shouldn't defer to the second half if you win the coin toss

[KD in CA]

6 hours ago, Starr Almighty said:

When an opposing teams game plan is to make your QB be a QB that is a very bad sign. Trust me none of the teams the Bills have faced have ever said to beat them we gotta make McCoy be a RB.

 

This would be funnier if it wasn't so spot on true.

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

6 hours ago, Starr Almighty said:

When an opposing teams game plan is to make your QB be a QB that is a very bad sign. Trust me none of the teams the Bills have faced have ever said to beat them we gotta make McCoy be a RB.

I’d give you a like but my daily limit is full. 

 

[SinatraSinger]

Ok, this thread went where I was hoping it wouldn't.

 

But so far we have that he can scramble, throws a good long ball.

 

The video's provided by moshermw were interesting.  Both games were losses and it was only the highlights but it seemed to show that if you let him take a longer drop back, say 7 steps, he can be more effective.

46 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

The problem with Tyrod is he requires a very specific offense to take advantage of his skills. Very few teams will be willing to change their system for him. His extreme "safe" play and unwillingness to throw wr's open will always be his downfall .

What is this specific offense that you speak of.

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Can we start with you defining what you mean exactly by "viable starting QB"?

With Tyrod Taylor under center in 2015 the Bills were 12th in offense; in 2016 the Bills were 11th in offense.  That's after the famous London game in '15 and the final game in '16 where Manuel started.  Without those, they were better - 9th and 10th I think.  In those same years, the Bills D was 15th and 16th. 

 

It seems fairly reasonable to believe that with a top-5 D as the Bills had in 2014, we would have won a couple more games and seen some playoffs.  So in the sense of "able to lead a team to playoffs", Taylor demonstrated he has the skills to be a viable starting QB in an appropriate offense - with a varied blocking scheme and top rushing attack, enough passing game to keep the D a bit honest, and the ability to gain yards with his feet.

He is probably not a viable NFL starter in a conventional timing-based pass-first WCO.

OK, you make some fine points.  You are saying that in the rigt offense he could be a viable starter.  So what teams in the league are presently running an offense that Taylor could possibly excel in.

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Starr Almighty said:

He had Watkins, Woods and Goodwin before this year. They all seem to be doing fine on their new teams. We never saw Woods play this well here. If only I could put a finger on what it was. 

You use Woods only and neglect that Watkins is having his worst year yet despite being the healthiest he has been.  Woods is having a slightly better year than usual.  Watkins is having a slightly worse year than usual.  Goodwin isn't doing all that much better other than staying healthy.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, tonawandarock said:

I'm not so sure 2015/16 total stats tell the true story on offense.   From my memory this offense got of to notoriously bad starts and would disappear for long stretches during most games.  Many points and yardage were accumulated when the game was no longer in doubt.   Feel free to rebut my recollections ...

 

How about if you substantiate your recollections, instead of putting them out there from memory and instructing others to do the work of rebutting?

 

Just sayin'

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, moshermw said:

OP,

 

Just resolve in your own mind how the New Orleans game and the Jest game are different from these two - all the data you need - hint -  different OC, same QB:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahJAelqtBm8

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeNf-axc_4s

 

Then take a lap.

 

I kind of hate you for making me re-watch how horridly porous our D was in that Miami game.

Taylor has his points, but along with "same QB, different OC", the Horse-Beating Society asks me to mention we do seem to be missing a few other difference makers from those tapes, initials of SW, RW, and MG

22 minutes ago, SinatraSinger said:

Ok, this thread went where I was hoping it wouldn't.

 

But so far we have that he can scramble, throws a good long ball.

 

The video's provided by moshermw were interesting.  Both games were losses and it was only the highlights but it seemed to show that if you let him take a longer drop back, say 7 steps, he can be more effective.

What is this specific offense that you speak of.

OK, you make some fine points.  You are saying that in the rigt offense he could be a viable starter.  So what teams in the league are presently running an offense that Taylor could possibly excel in.

 

Um, the Seattle game was an upset win, not a loss. 

The better question isn't really "what teams in the league are...."  as "what coaches in the league have the right perspective to fit their scheme to their players?"
I would expect Andy Reid (Matt Nagy), Pete Carroll (Darrell Bevell) and if he returned from the college ranks, Jim Harbaugh, to do so.  Bill O'Brien maybe - he seems to keep going to the playoffs with scraps at QB.  Possibly Gary Kubiak if he came back as a coach.  There may be other guys who would do it, the point is, it isn't the "right offense" so much as the "right offensive mind".

That's my major question mark with McWrestler and Co as our coaches.  They seem very fixated on "putting the right bodies on the bus" instead of getting their hands on talent, and exploiting it effectively.  Maybe they're gonna get both, whoo hoo! but all too often, that doesn't seem to end well.

 

[SinatraSinger]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

Um, the Seattle game was an upset win, not a loss. 

 

I went and looked at last years schedule and it says that the game was in Seattle, on a monday night, and that the Bills lost 25 to 31.  The box score also shows that the bills had the ball over 40 minutes had 30 first downs and somehow still only scored 25 points and lost the game.

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I kind of hate you for making me re-watch how horridly porous our D was in that Miami game.

Taylor has his points, but along with "same QB, different OC", the Horse-Beating Society asks me to mention we do seem to be missing a few other difference makers from those tapes, initials of SW, RW, and MG

 

Um, the Seattle game was an upset win, not a loss. 

The better question isn't really "what teams in the league are...."  as "what coaches in the league have the right perspective to fit their scheme to their players?"
I would expect Andy Reid (Matt Nagy), Pete Carroll (Darrell Bevell) and if he returned from the college ranks, Jim Harbaugh, to do so.  Bill O'Brien maybe - he seems to keep going to the playoffs with scraps at QB.  Possibly Gary Kubiak if he came back as a coach.  There may be other guys who would do it, the point is, it isn't the "right offense" so much as the "right offensive mind".

That's my major question mark with McWrestler and Co as our coaches.  They seem very fixated on "putting the right bodies on the bus" instead of getting their hands on talent, and exploiting it effectively.  Maybe they're gonna get both, whoo hoo! but all too often, that doesn't seem to end well.

 

So you think that these coaches change their whole offensive philosphy based on their players?  Or do you think that have a basic philosphy and try to find what works within their philosphy with the players they have.

 

Personally I think that Dennison has been trying to figure out how he can use Taylor within his philosphy but has just been unable to do so.  Finally gave up and now we will see Peterman.

[Rochesterfan]

6 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

He really looked pretty damn good the Jets game.  A lot of fumbles, penalties, bad clock management.  The Saints game was a dumpster fire.  I just don't see Peterman while there's still a chance at playoffs.   Everything was going great up until the Jets game and the wheels essentially came off the defense not the offense.

 

 

I disagree - he ended up with half way decent stats in the Jets game, but he did not play well.  Romo repeatedly talked about what the Bills needed to do do to beat the Jets rushing front - hit your drop and make a decisive throw.  

 

There in lies the issue - he could not do that.  Once the game got out of reach and the Jets backed off - he started making completions and put up decent numbers.

 

The rest of the team also stunk- which did not help, but the Jets game is part of the reason stats on TT are difficult to assess.  He does a lot of things wrong throughout the game - things that drive an OC and HC crazy, but he does not make that key mistake either.  I think Jeremy White said it best - if TT is your starting QB you are never going to have the EJ game against the Jags in London or the the Houston game that ended EJs season, but you will not get the big game needed either.  You are going to need just about perfection from the rest of the team to consistently win.

[Norcalbillsfan]

Tyrod isn't terrible in my opinion, but I think he falls in the elite back up qb class. Mostly his ability to not throw picks and I personally think he's the most dangerous qb with his legs since Vick. But his low interception rate is direct reflection of the very few risks he makes as a passer (check down passes all day) and he's probably the last qb you want out there if the game is on the line. If he was on a team with a great defense where he only needs to score twice and just not turn the ball over and make a few flashy plays with his legs he could make a deep run in playoffs but that's a perfect scenario for tyrod. I wish him all the luck, he's just not the right fit for buffalo.

[tonawandarock]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

How about if you substantiate your recollections, instead of putting them out there from memory and instructing others to do the work of rebutting?

 

Just sayin'

this is a forum for opinions...please refrain from rebutting.  thanx hapless

[Starr Almighty]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

You use Woods only and neglect that Watkins is having his worst year yet despite being the healthiest he has been.  Woods is having a slightly better year than usual.  Watkins is having a slightly worse year than usual.  Goodwin isn't doing all that much better other than staying healthy.

I was replying to someone complaining about the talent he had this year at the WR position. I think Watkins doesn't seem to be getting the playbook for some reason since he was dealt late, which is ridiculous to say in week 11

 

I just looked up the numbers Goodwin has 500 yards right now he's never had 500 yards. Sammy is gonna easily beat last year's output making that his worst season ever. Woods highest career yardage was 699 he's at 622 with 4 TDS his highest is 5. So Goodwin/Woods may have career years.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Starr Almighty

[Scott7975]

29 minutes ago, Starr Almighty said:

I was replying to someone complaining about the talent he had this year at the WR position. I think Watkins doesn't seem to be getting the playbook for some reason since he was dealt late, which is ridiculous to say in week 11

 

I just looked up the numbers Goodwin has 500 yards right now he's never had 500 yards. Sammy is gonna easily beat last year's output making that his worst season ever. Woods highest career yardage was 699 he's at 622 with 4 TDS his highest is 5. So Goodwin/Woods may have career years.

Yeah, I get your point but they aren't really doing all that much better.  Goodwin is more a primary target now and he is healthy.  We had him healthy for one season.  Sammy should easily beat last years output because Sammy only played in 8 games last year.  Woods is absolutely doing better this year.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

He has the skill set to be the best backup QB the NFL

[SinatraSinger]

33 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

He has the skill set to be the best backup QB the NFL

 

Please define his skills?   What are they?

 

So far we have that he can escape and use his legs, he throws a nice long ball and he doesn't throw interceptions.    Personally I don't think that not throwing interceptions is a skill it is a by product of not making enough attempts but that is what people have said.

 

Yes he has good legs and escability which in my mind would make him a good punt returner but not neccessarily a good QB.

 

So what are these QB skills that everyone seems to think he has?

 

Thanks

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 minute ago, SinatraSinger said:

Please define his skills?   What are they?

If people do not know his strengths and weaknesses by now they have not been paying close attention.  

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, SinatraSinger said:

I went and looked at last years schedule and it says that the game was in Seattle, on a monday night, and that the Bills lost 25 to 31.  The box score also shows that the bills had the ball over 40 minutes had 30 first downs and somehow still only scored 25 points and lost the game.

So you think that these coaches change their whole offensive philosphy based on their players?  Or do you think that have a basic philosphy and try to find what works within their philosphy with the players they have.

 

Personally I think that Dennison has been trying to figure out how he can use Taylor within his philosphy but has just been unable to do so.  Finally gave up and now we will see Peterman.

 

You did the work, I was lazy and went with the label, I sit corrected.  It certainly wasn't a blowout, though.  30 first downs, 2:1 edge in TOP - a lot of offense in that game including 289 yds passing by TT

I think coaches have a basic philosophy and a big playbook, then smart coaches select from that playbook and tweak it according to the players they have.

 

I don't know how to say this politely to Dennison but while you may be correct, if he can't look at two years of tape and do a better job figuring out how to use Taylor and McCoy to better advantage, I think his "figuring" is deficient.

[The Now Moment]

To me, he needs a college system to play his best...designed runs, not under center...

Edited November 18, 2017 by Buffalo30

[dulles]

18 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

If you have Greg Roman or Andy Reid you can score 23 to 26 ppg with a QB like Taylor.  How many games you win depend on if your team can play defense and not get 11 penalties a game, make it's kicks ect.  If you have Hackett, Dennison, Marty ball type 0C's then you probably are going to want a different QB.

I think this is a pretty accurate assessment.  He is system/coach dependent.  Our system/coach don't mesh.  He'll be around the NFL for a lot longer.  In addition, he's a high character guy.  He works hard, studies hard, etc.  I would be SHOCKED if he is divisive in the locker room the rest of the way this year.  That is the perfect career backup.

[Jerome007]

Is he a starter? Hell yes in at least 15 teams. We'll see if Peterman is better, and hopefully he is, but Tyrod sure was better than any other Bills QB while he was here besides NP if he pans out. 

 

Is he a superstar? Nope. Lack of audibles, passes down the middle, lack of anticipation, not reading all the filed, etc. We all saw his limitations. But he sure had strengths too.

[Alphadawg7]

17 hours ago, kdiggz said:

Lol even the people that like Tyrod admit that you need a good defense and good special teams to win. That doesn't sound like a good QB to me

 

Yet guys like Eli Manning have 2 SB's when those facts were true.  There is MORE than one way to win in the NFL.  This notion that the only way to win a SB is with an Elite QB is a complete farce.  Even in 4 of the last 5 SB's there has either been a Winner or Participant who was a mediocre or worse passing team where the strength was D and Run game.  And thats just using only the Super Bowl as an example.  

 

TT...is he a guy who can carry your team?  Definitely Not.  Is he a guy you can win with if you put him in the right system that has a good D and some weapons to work with on offense...Yes. 

 

Honestly, I think he could make the playoffs on a team like Arizona, Denver, or Jacksonville.  He isn't capable of going to a team like Cle or SF and help turn them around, but he can win if he is in a good situation IMO.  And personally I think he will be a Bronco next year and we may just find out.  I don't think AZ will be in play unless Palmer retire which I doubt he does as I think he will play next season with Fitz apparently prepping for a 1 year extension.  

[SinatraSinger]

1 hour ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

If people do not know his strengths and weaknesses by now they have not been paying close attention.  

 

 

You mentioned that he has the "skill set" to be a back up QB.  I am asking you to tell me what this skill set is and you can't answer the question.  So many people have mention for so long that he has the skill set that it is nothing but coach speak and means nothing.  What skills do you see that he has that would make him a decent back up in the NFL?  Simple question.

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think coaches have a basic philosophy and a big playbook, then smart coaches select from that playbook and tweak it according to the players they have.

 

I don't know how to say this politely to Dennison but while you may be correct, if he can't look at two years of tape and do a better job figuring out how to use Taylor and McCoy to better advantage, I think his "figuring" is deficient.

 

I can get behind this.  Nice post.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You did the work, I was lazy and went with the label, I sit corrected.  It certainly wasn't a blowout, though.  30 first downs, 2:1 edge in TOP - a lot of offense in that game including 289 yds passing by TT

I think coaches have a basic philosophy and a big playbook, then smart coaches select from that playbook and tweak it according to the players they have.

 

I don't know how to say this politely to Dennison but while you may be correct, if he can't look at two years of tape and do a better job figuring out how to use Taylor and McCoy to better advantage, I think his "figuring" is deficient.

 

....guess my bigger question is "does he wants to"?.........probably my fickleness or senility, but I thought when Dennison flexed his "system" capitalizing on TT's mobility, Taylor actually produced two improved and more well rounded games, where he spread the wealth in one to 9 receivers....if the kid is NOT in your 2018 plan, so be it....but should't we be in WIN NOW mode with the personnel we have to work with?......not sure I understand his issue or rigidity with that......another Fairchild in the making?........

[Maine-iac]

These are the places I get upset with the team.  He plays his ass off in Miami.  Leads to a 4th qtr lead with 1:20.  Defense chokes.   Leads them back down the field in 0T.  Carpenter misses a kick.  Defense chokes.  They bench him the next week.  Fast forward to this year.  We play the Jets.  We are 5 and 2 and everyone is saying he's getting it.   By all accounts in a game where we have a rookie and then back ups and walk ons at WR/TE he plays pretty damn well.  If not for the fumbles and drops he easily throws for 300 and a couple of TD's to go with 35 yards rushing and a TD.  Shady is completely ineffective and the defense gives up 200 and multiple scores rushing.  Next week Taylor doesn't play well.  No excuses.  The defense is getting hammered into the floor.  Personally I couldn't figure out why they weren't throwing every down but either way the passing game wasn't good.  That said in what essentially was an off game for Taylor and a second horrendous showing for the defense the decide to bench Taylor.  If were 4 and 5 or Taylor had multiple bad games where it's clearly him making poor decisions.  March in Peterman.  Here we are at 5 and 4 in the playoff hunt.  Taylor has done enough to get us to 5 and 4 and the "help" just arrived this week.   I definately would have given it more time.  I've thought they would draft a legit prospect/competition this offseason from the outset.  Maybe McDermott doesn't think he can get the defense fixed and is throwing in the towel on the season and we might as well see Peterman.  Let's face it, the defense has been horrendous the last two weeks and Dennison isn't the most innovative 0C in the world.  It's not like Dennison is going to outscore anyone even with Peyton Manning.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Maine-iac

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....guess my bigger question is "does he wants to"?.........probably my fickleness or senility, but I thought when Dennison flexed his "system" capitalizing on TT's mobility, Taylor actually produced two improved and more well rounded games, where he spread the wealth in one to 9 receivers....if the kid is NOT in your 2018 plan, so be it....but should't we be in WIN NOW mode with the personnel we have to work with?......not sure I understand his issue or rigidity with that......another Fairchild in the making?........

 

IMO the answer to your question is "no, he does not want to".  But that's a rigidity that doesn't auger well for the Bills long term success.

6 hours ago, tonawandarock said:

this is a forum for opinions...please refrain from rebutting.  thanx hapless

 

This is a forum for discussion.  Sometimes we discuss facts, sometimes we discuss opinions, sometimes we discuss opinions dressed as facts or facts dressed as opinions.

 

But to toss out opinion without troubling to tie it to facts, then ask others to do the work for you and find some facts instead of just tossing their opinion back atcha, that's lukewarm.

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

IMO the answer to your question is "no, he does not want to".  But that's a rigidity that doesn't auger well for the Bills long term success.

 

...thanks bud....thought it was just me....if his "beloved system" takes precedence over "winning NOW with the personnel I have to work with", this azzclown needs to be gone......next year is a different story............