Kirby Jackson Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 19 minutes ago, Luka said: The debate isn't about whether or not the defense is bad, it's about whether or not Dareus mattered at all. I'm leaning towards he wouldn't have done a damn thing the past two games. This is way deeper than one player. This Cover 2 crap has proven time and time again that it just doesn't work without an ELITE front 4. Basically if you are a team that relies on the pass, this defense can be diced up. If you lean on the run, we can be run over. This is a scheme problem even more than it is a personnel problem. It’s certainly a bit of both. It’s really tough though to say that he wouldn’t have made any difference when the Bills took this giant step back and the Jags a step forward. I don’t believe the outcome would have been different yesterday especially but they wouldn’t have been bullied for 300 on the ground right at them. The whole line has taken a step back and there is one thing they are missing, a guy eating doubles. The pass rush might be missing it even more. This defense is scary bad right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said: It’s certainly a bit of both. It’s really tough though to say that he wouldn’t have made any difference when the Bills took this giant step back and the Jags a step forward. I don’t believe the outcome would have been different yesterday especially but they wouldn’t have been bullied for 300 on the ground right at them. The whole line has taken a step back and there is one thing they are missing, a guy eating doubles. The pass rush might be missing it even more. This defense is scary bad right now. He's played 38 snaps in two games for the Jags. Sorry but the Jags defense was good WAY before Dareus got there. They're currently 4th. 38 snaps by Dareus did not get them where they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, Luka said: He's played 38 snaps in two games for the Jags. Sorry but the Jags defense was good WAY before Dareus got there. They're currently 4th. 38 snaps by Dareus did not get them where they are. Look at their rush numbers before and after and his pff grades. He might be a part-time player right now but he’s having an impact on rushing plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Future Tom Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 27 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: What some fans fail to understand about players like Dareus and Sammy is their impact goes much further than just numbers. Coming into the year, those 2 plus McCoy were the only Bills to be considered blue chip players. Every opponent pays attention to blue chip players. Dareus Just being out there makes things easier for other players. Odds are we were getting smoked either way by NO. But if you make teams one dimensional, it makes games a lot easier. We were stopping the run early in the year and guys could force on Pass. Now, we are just a bad overall defense. #elitedecoy #notjustnumbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Look at their rush numbers before and after and his pff grades. He might be a part-time player right now but he’s having an impact on rushing plays. Facing teams 26th and 31st in rushing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Luka said: Facing teams 26th and 31st in rushing. You realize we played more than 2 games with Dareus right? Second, in the two games since we have traded him, our run D went to bottom of the league...and in the 2 games he's been a Jag, their run D plummeted up from the bottom of the league. So there are more than the 2 measly data points to consider on both our team and the team he went to. Edited November 13, 2017 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: You realize we played more than 2 games with Dareus right? Second, in the two games since we have traded him, our run D went to bottom of the league...and in the 2 games he's been a Jag, their run D plummeted up from the bottom of the league. So there are more than the 2 measly data points to consider on both our team and the team he went to. That was kind of the point. You said it well alpha. We can try to minimize the impact and justify whatever but the data says that run defenses with him have been better than without. That’s not up for debate. We can talk about how much is because of him but we can’t pretend that they haven’t been better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 What everyone is OVER LOOKING on the Dareus trade with regards to COST: Likely gonna cost us a 1st/2nd round pick in this deal too. 1. He wasn't a position of luxury or depth, he MUST be replaced in THIS draft or FA, and it will most likely be the draft. 2. All we got was a 6th that could become a 5th. The odds of us replacing Dareus with that draft pick effectively are probably less than 5% and probably closer to below 3%. 3. As a result of needing to replace him, we are more than likely going to have to use a higher draft pick on him, and with the acquisition of Kelvin Benjamin, I think DL is now going to be top of the list and likely use one of our first rounders and definitely within the first 2 rounds. 4. So not only do we LOSE a young talented DT locked up under contract, we also are likely going to be forced to use one of our high draft picks, probably a first rounder TRYING to replace him. And even using an early pick like a 1st, the odds of us finding an equal replacement are very low, and even a guy who is a solid replacement isnt very high as most first rounders bust or fall short of expectations. 5. And if that draft pick doesn't pan out, we will continue to need to invest draft capital moving forward searching for the hole we created...a hole that all we got back for was a 6th round pick. 6. Pretty good chance we need to replace Kyle Williams next year too (or at least should), making it 2 holes on the DL we may be searching for replacements in this draft for. If you really look at the whole picture, not only did we lose Dareus, but now we likely lost a high pick in this next draft we COULD have spent on many other holes just to try and replace someone we wouldn't have had to replace. We should have at least rode the season out to see if he and the new staff could find common ground before getting rid of him so cheap. Not to mention, if he continued to show strong this season, we could have gotten much better compensation, like at least a 2nd to help try and find a replacement. PS: I dont want to hear about cap crap in regards to trading now vs the off season. You don't give away talented young players locked up just to save a little on the cap one extra season, thats not how teams make the playoffs. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEHARDTRUTH Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: Just to clarify, I’m not talking with you because you don’t know what you are talking about, not because we don’t agree. I disagree with people here all of the time. You don’t even understand the Dareus situation that you are so passionate about. The guaranteed money paid out made it basically impossible to move on before the end of next year. There was little benefit to it. That’s why so many of us at the time didn’t like the move. It’s proven to be true. I fully understand the situation. The trade had minimal effect on our cap. Giving us little to no relief in the short term. I would also agree that the defense is more difficult to run against with Dareus than without. My position on this is pretty simple. Mcdermott and Beane both believe it is more important to have players who give their absolute best than it is to have players with talent who play hard if/when they feel like it. Its a position I happen to agree with. I do not believe that you can afford to pay a guy 16 million a year to play when he feels like it if your goal is to win titles. Its a philosophy that NFL many great NFL coaches and GMs agree with not to mention many of the fans who post on this site. Your implication that I know nothing about the game because I agree with that philosophy is incredibly arrogant, rude, AND WRONG. Another posters comment that I feel the way I do because I must know somebody in the front is just as ridiculous. Im looking at this solely from a cultural standpoint. Mcdermott and Beane both believe IMO that attitude and effort are equally if not more important than talent. And that If you want to be a consistent winner you cant have guys who dont but into philosophy. Terrel Owens was one of the most talented WRs in the game when he played. But he bounced around from team to team because he was to much of a headache. Dareus is no different. Ive been watching this game since 1970. Usually about 7-10 hours a week in the fall between college and pro. I was a season ticket holder for 15 years. I feel pretty comfortable about my knowledge of the game. I get that trading him gives us minimal to zero cap relief. I also agree that his presence on the field makes us a better defense but I firmly believe that attitude and effort are more important in the grand scheme of things. Tom Brady isnt great because of his talent alone. Hes great because of his talent AND work ethic. Collinsworth brought that up last night. That Bradys reputation for being the hardest worker on the team is a huge reason for his productivity and overall impact on that franchise. The FO is trying to instill that attitude in this team. They place a very high value on character. Something that is significantly lacking in Dareus. Do I think Dareus is a bad guy. Absolutely not. He just doesnt seem to love and respect the game the way a franchise would want from its highest paid and most talented defender. Mcdermott and Beane are looking beyond ability alone. They want guys who are willing to bring the right attitude because thats what wins championships. Dareus simply doesnt bring that to the table. He has hall of fame talent. Theres no doubt about it. But he also has a piss poor attitude that prevents him from being anywhere close to the player hes capable of being and in the mind of the Bills that appears to be very important. Having talent matters a great deal but in order to give yourself a shot at being the best you absolutely have to have an equally great attitude. Dareus doesnt have that. Why do you think we could only get a sixth round pick for him? Teams should have been lining up to get him. Even a third or fourth rounder would have been a steal if he played anywhere near his capabilities. They pretty much gave him away because they couldnt do any better and they did it because the headaches he brings off the field far outweigh the productivity he brings on it. This team has a ton of holes. Having Dareus on the team is not the difference between them being a contender for the Superbowl and looking like they did yesterday. They have far to many other problems. Tradavious White is the kind of guy they want. Hes productive but more importantly he wants to be great. He has a championship mentalllity. Always striving to be better. Never satisfied with his game. Those are the guys I want. Not someone whose always late for meetings and someone who rarely gives their best. Its much harder to win big when you have players like that. Edited November 13, 2017 by THEHARDTRUTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 1 minute ago, THEHARDTRUTH said: I fully understand the situation. The trade had minimal effect on our cap. Giving us little to no relief in the short term. I would also agree that the defense is more difficult to run against with Dareus than without. My position on this is pretty simple. Mcdermott and Beane both believe. It is more important to have players who give their absolute best than it is to have players with talent who play hard if/when they feel like it. Its a position I happen to agree with. I do not believe that you can afford to pay a guy 16 million a year to play when he feels like it if your goal is to win titles. Its a philosophy that NFL many great NFL coaches and GMs agree with not to mention many of the fans who post on this site. Your implication that I know nothing about the game because I agree with that philosophy is incredibly arrogant, rude, AND WRONG. Another posters comment that I feel the way I do because I must know somebody in the front is just as ridiculous. Im looking at this solely from a cultural standpoint. Mcdermott and Beane both believe IMO that attitude and effort are equally if not more important than talent. And that If you want to be a consistent winner you cant have guys who dont but into philosophy. Terrel Owens was one of the most talented WRs in the game when he played. But he bounced around from team to team because he was to much of a headache. Dareus is no different. Ive been watching this game since 1970. Usually about 7-10 hours a week in the fall between college and pro. I was a season ticket holder for 15 years. I feel pretty comfortable about my knowledge of the game. I get that trading him gives us minimal to zero cap relief. I also agree that his presence on the field makes us a better defense but I firmly believe that attitude and effort are more important in the grand scheme of things. Tom Brady isnt great because of his talent alone. Hes great because of his talent AND work ethic. Collinsworth brought that up last night. That Bradys reputation for being the hardest worker on the team is a huge reason for his productivity and overall impact on that franchise. The FO is trying to instill that attitude in this team. They place a very high value on character. Something that is significantly lacking in Dareus. Do I think Dareus is a bad guy. Absolutely not. He just doesnt seem to love and respect the game the way a franchise would want from its highest paid and most talented defender. Mcdermott and Beane are looking beyond ability alone. They want guys who are willing to bring the right attitude because thats what wins championships. Dareus simply doesnt bring that to the table. He has hall of fame talent. Theres no doubt about it. But he also has a piss poor attitude that prevents him from being anywhere close to the player hes capable of being and in the mind of the Bills that appears to be very important. Having talent matters a great deal but in order to give yourself a shot at being the best you absolutely have to have an equally great attitude. Dareus doesnt have that. Why do you think we could only get a sixth round pick for him? Teams should have been lining up to get him. Even a third or fourth rounder would have been a steal if he played anywhere near his capabilities. They pretty much gave him away because they couldnt do any better and they did it because the headaches he brings off the field far outweigh the productivity he brings on it. This team has a ton of holes. Having Dareus on the team is not the difference between them being a contender for the Superbowl. They have far to many other problems. Tradavious White is the kind of guy they want. Hes productive but more importantly he wants to be great. He has a championship mentalllity. Always striving to be better. Never satisfied with his game. Those are the guys I want. Not someone whose always late for meetings and someone who rarely gives their best. Its much harder to win big when you have players like that. Hurts my eyes... #ParagraphsPlease Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sven233 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 I'm just going to leave this here: Before Dareus trade, The Jags allowed 138 yards per game on the ground. After Dareus deal, they have allowed 116 yards rushing combined the last two weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 19 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: That was kind of the point. You said it well alpha. We can try to minimize the impact and justify whatever but the data says that run defenses with him have been better than without. That’s not up for debate. We can talk about how much is because of him but we can’t pretend that they haven’t been better. Not up for debate? LOL whatever you guys want to think I guess. Playing teams that can't run the ball has a lot more to do with their stats than a guy playing 12 snaps. You're delusional if you think 38 snaps out of 120+ is having a huge impact on anything. When we play teams that can't run the ball well, we also stop them. In fact both teams played the Bengals. In those games Marcel played roughly 35% of the snaps. The Bills allowed 82 yards and the Jags 29. The Bengals have had 1 100 yard rushing game. It's hardly a correlation. Good team plays bad team, good team has nice stats. Nothing to do with Dareus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Luka said: The debate isn't about whether or not the defense is bad, it's about whether or not Dareus mattered at all. I'm leaning towards he wouldn't have done a damn thing the past two games. This is way deeper than one player. This Cover 2 crap has proven time and time again that it just doesn't work without an ELITE front 4. Basically if you are a team that relies on the pass, this defense can be diced up. If you lean on the run, we can be run over. This is a scheme problem even more than it is a personnel problem. The front 4 lost arguably the most elite of its talent and attempted replacement with a 3rd rounder jag. If your cover two assessment is accurate, it must be an issue. These guys need to start scouring heaven and earth to find a very good DT or the season is over. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: The front 4 lost arguably the most elite of its talent and attempted replacement with a 3rd rounder jag. If your cover two assessment is accurate, it must be an issue. These guys need to start scouring heaven and earth to find a very good DT or the season is over. DT isn't nearly as important as having edge rushers. Huges and Lawson are probably the worst starting tandem in the entire league. Add to the fact that Kyle is basically done and you have a very poor situation, with or without Dareus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, Luka said: DT isn't nearly as important as having edge rushers. Huges and Lawson are probably the worst starting tandem in the entire league. Add to the fact that Kyle is basically done and you have a very poor situation, with or without Dareus. This is flat out false. Interior pass rush is what has made good d-lines great in recent years. It's how you beat Brady. Just look at Denver last night - they lost their interior pass rush from a couple of years ago and they were destroyed. The Giants destroyed Brady in 2 Super Bowls via interior DTs who could collapse the pocket. Watch what Seattle does with Michael Bennett on a weekly basis or Leonard Williams with the Jets now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Well then where were all the sacks when Marcel was here? Everyone keeps correlating everything to Dareus, so show me some proof. Where was the production when he was here? If we weren't giving up 100 yards or more on the ground, it was because we were giving up over 300 in the air. He did not make this defense good and his departure did not make it worse. It was already bad. I'm not blaming him for the defense being bad, it's clearly scheme and a lack of talent. My point is it did not get worse when he left, we just happened to play teams that can run the ball. And the Jags happened to play teams that can't run the ball against anyone, he didn't magically take them from worst to first all by himself. But anyways, I'm over it. I don't blame fans here for not knowing anything about football, the Bills are a terrible example. But trying to sell Dareus as the most important player on the team is just laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Luka said: Well then where were all the sacks when Marcel was here? Everyone keeps correlating everything to Dareus, so show me some proof. Where was the production when he was here? If we weren't giving up 100 yards or more on the ground, it was because we were giving up over 300 in the air. He did not make this defense good and his departure did not make it worse. It was already bad. I'm not blaming him for the defense being bad, it's clearly scheme and a lack of talent. My point is it did not get worse when he left, we just happened to play teams that can run the ball. And the Jags happened to play teams that can't run the ball against anyone, he didn't magically take them from worst to first all by himself. But anyways, I'm over it. I don't blame fans here for not knowing anything about football, the Bills are a terrible example. But trying to sell Dareus as the most important player on the team is just laughable. Saying people that you're engaging with know nothing about football is not a wise way to debate. Regarding Dareus' pass rush ability, it is the case that through 2014, he was one of the best interior pass rushers in the league. He was misused by Ryan, and moreover he has not played up to his immense ability since the beginning of the 2015 season. But the talent is presumably still there - a coach simply needs to get through to him. Maybe Marrone does. We'll find out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: This is flat out false. Interior pass rush is what has made good d-lines great in recent years. It's how you beat Brady. Just look at Denver last night - they lost their interior pass rush from a couple of years ago and they were destroyed. The Giants destroyed Brady in 2 Super Bowls via interior DTs who could collapse the pocket. Watch what Seattle does with Michael Bennett on a weekly basis or Leonard Williams with the Jets now. DT play is important to not only the run game but it also eliminates QBs from stepping up in the pocket as it collapses as you're intimating here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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