Deranged Rhino Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 7 minutes ago, garybusey said: No, Van Grack, an associate of Muellers, ordered the restrictions. The judge accepted them. Muellers team can adjust the restrictions. Take your logic and walk it out. If you believe Mueller was using Pap to spy on team Trump, why would that plan start by ordering Pap not to have any contact with Trump or his team? He was barred from having contact with anyone involved in the charges against him... why would Mueller make a motion to restrict Pap from doing one thing, then do a 180 later? What purpose would that serve? The answer is, there is no explanation that makes a lick of sense. Then there is of course the legal issues of a wire for Pap. Do you believe a witness could get close to the sitting POTUS while wearing a wire? Do you realize how many laws that would violate? So, we know from Mueller's order and the Judge's order that Pap wasn't allowed to contact anyone in Team Trump. We know the legal hurdles to have a cooperating witness wearing a wire near a sitting POTUS would be incredibly high. But you believe despite all this Pap was still targeting Team Trump because "Mueller can adjust the restrictions". That's fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: you gotta limit that election meddling to stuff we can all get behind...that made up ×#@%. That's where the magic happens. Oh, if they conspired to use stolen documents to defraud the United States election that's jail time for this whole crew 43 minutes ago, Doc said: Was there something to use in those emails? How could that be? Selectively leaked private messages that were used to drive a wedge between Bernie supporters and Clinton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, garybusey said: By who? People on both sides of the isle have said this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Zevon Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 18 minutes ago, njbuff said: People on both sides of the isle have said this. Source it or stuff it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, garybusey said: Source it or stuff it Do you have the internet? You can do the homework yourself to see I ain't lying. Plus, DR lays it out for you. I don't need to stuff anything, it isn't Thanksgiving yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Zevon Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 53 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: Take your logic and walk it out. If you believe Mueller was using Pap to spy on team Trump, why would that plan start by ordering Pap not to have any contact with Trump or his team? He was barred from having contact with anyone involved in the charges against him... why would Mueller make a motion to restrict Pap from doing one thing, then do a 180 later? What purpose would that serve? The answer is, there is no explanation that makes a lick of sense. Then there is of course the legal issues of a wire for Pap. Do you believe a witness could get close to the sitting POTUS while wearing a wire? Do you realize how many laws that would violate? So, we know from Mueller's order and the Judge's order that Pap wasn't allowed to contact anyone in Team Trump. We know the legal hurdles to have a cooperating witness wearing a wire near a sitting POTUS would be incredibly high. But you believe despite all this Pap was still targeting Team Trump because "Mueller can adjust the restrictions". That's fantasy. First, I have no idea if Papa wore a wire or not. I'm not going to speculate that point because we will undoubtedly find out in due time. The prosecution places restrictions on the indicted so he/she can be charged if they break the restrictions without consent from the prosecution. 2 minutes ago, njbuff said: Do you have the internet? You can do the homework yourself to see I ain't lying. Plus, DR lays it out for you. I don't need to stuff anything, it isn't Thanksgiving yet. I did earlier and quoted an article saying the investigation will go on for months. DR agreed but said that the investigation will end after the Horowitz report is filed. I'm curious where you're getting your information. If you could source your comment, please do so we can continue this conversation in a civil manner. Otherwise stuff it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, garybusey said: First, I have no idea if Papa wore a wire or not. I'm not going to speculate that point because we will undoubtedly find out in due time. The prosecution places restrictions on the indicted so he/she can be charged if they break the restrictions without consent from the prosecution. I did earlier and quoted an article saying the investigation will go on for months. DR agreed but said that the investigation will end after the Horowitz report is filed. I'm curious where you're getting your information. If you could source your comment, please do so we can continue this conversation in a civil manner. Otherwise stuff it. Grow up psycho. I guess you haven't heard people like Mark Gaetz, who is on top of this stuff. For example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Zevon Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Just now, njbuff said: Grow up psycho. I guess you haven't heard people like Mark Gaetz, who is on top of this stuff. For example. Who the !@#$ is Mark Gaetz? Do you mean this fine representative? Just now, njbuff said: Grow up psycho. I guess you haven't heard people like Mark Gaetz, who is on top of this stuff. For example. Also, I'm still waiting for you to source your comment from earlier. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, garybusey said: First, I have no idea if Papa wore a wire or not. I'm not going to speculate that point because we will undoubtedly find out in due time. The prosecution places restrictions on the indicted so he/she can be charged if they break the restrictions without consent from the prosecution. I agree we will find out in due time. But that he was wearing a wire is not in much of a dispute by either side. In fact, many in the left made a big deal about it on this very board and in the media. Even Pap's girlfriend has hinted as much in her social media rampage. It's clear from the hearing and the nature of his indictment being withheld from the press for months that Pap was being used by Mueller to gain intelligence and leverage against someone. The left, and many in this thread, assumed that someone was Trump and his team. But the restrictions given to Pap that day make this impossible since Trump and his team were who he was ordered to stay away from. You're correct that Mueller and the Judge could revise that list. That's possible. But there's no evidence it happened, and there's no reason why - in a closed session - Mueller and his team would need to hide their intent by lying or misleading the court about who they wanted Pap to go after. That is the ultimate point here. The hearing where we learned about the restrictions was a closed session which did not break in the media until after Pap was brought in from the cold (ie, until after he was done collecting evidence against whomever he was told to). There is no reason for Mueller's team in this session to mislead the court or hide their true intentions. What possible reason could there be for Mueller to prohibit Pap from contact with anyone related to the charges against him only to then do a 180 at a later point in time even though it's within his purview to change that list? It doesn't make any sense. The only thing that makes sense from that hearing is that Mueller was interested in Pap gathering intelligence about people unrelated to Trump and his campaign. Who might that be? We can't know for sure but the options are few... If you walk out the notion that Pap was a plant by the DNC and Fusion to undercut Trump, it makes far more sense that Mueller would use Pap against his handlers... a list that would include Manafort and Podesta on top of Simpson and probably a few in the DNC leadership. Those are the most likely targets. There's far more evidence to make this case than the other way around. Edited February 27, 2018 by Deranged Rhino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 24 minutes ago, garybusey said: Who the !@#$ is Mark Gaetz? Do you mean this fine representative? Also, I'm still waiting for you to source your comment from earlier. Thanks! He's had 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Zevon Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Just now, Deranged Rhino said: I agree we will find out in due time. But that he was wearing a wire is not in much of a dispute by either side. In fact, many in the left made a big deal about it on this very board and in the media. Even Pap's girlfriend has hinted as much in her social media rampage. It's clear from the hearing and the nature of his indictment being withheld from the press for months that Pap was being used by Mueller to gain intelligence and leverage against someone. The left, and many in this thread, assumed that someone was Trump and his team. But the restrictions given to Pap that day make this impossible since Trump and his team were who he was ordered to stay away from. You're correct that Mueller and the Judge could revise that list. That's possible. But there's no evidence it happened, and there's no reason why - in a closed session - Mueller and his team would need to hide their intent by lying or misleading the court about who they wanted Pap to go after. That is the ultimate point here. The hearing where we learned about the restrictions was a closed session which did not break in the media until after Pap was brought in from the cold (ie, until after he was done collecting evidence against whomever he was told to). There is no reason for Mueller's team in this session to mislead the court or hide their true intentions. What possible reason could there be for Mueller to prohibit Pap from contact with anyone related to the charges against him only to then do a 180 at a later point in time even though it's within his purview to change that list? It doesn't make any sense. The only thing that makes sense from that hearing is that Mueller was interested in Pap gathering intelligence about people unrelated to Trump and his campaign. Who might that be? We can't know for sure but the options are few... If you walk out the notion that Pap was a plant by the DNC and Fusion to undercut Trump, it makes far more sense that Mueller would use Pap against his handlers... a list that would include Manafort and Podesta on top of Simpson and probably a few in the DNC leadership. Those are the most likely targets. There's far more evidence to make this case than the other way around. Those are the only realistic targets Mueller and Pap could have had in mind when you look at all the scenarios revolving around Pap's indictment and re-release into the wild. I disagree they are hiding their intent. They are following procedure. It's common for the prosecution in any case to place restrictions on the indicted so he/she can be charged if they break the restrictions without consent from the prosecution. It's done in front of the judge so the judge is witness to the restriction agreement - which is the exact reason the judge reiterates these restrictions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 51 minutes ago, garybusey said: I disagree they are hiding their intent. They are following procedure. It's common for the prosecution in any case to place restrictions on the indicted so he/she can be charged if they break the restrictions without consent from the prosecution. It's done in front of the judge so the judge is witness to the restriction agreement - which is the exact reason the judge reiterates these restrictions. Was he sent into the "wild" to record Trump, someone on Trump's team, or someone else unrelated to Trump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Zevon Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Just now, Taro T said: Was he sent into the "wild" to record Trump, someone on Trump's team, or someone else unrelated to Trump? If you assume he wore a wire - If I had to guess, it's the bolded, but it's nothing more than an educated guess. Each Mueller indictment has had surprises nobody predicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 52 minutes ago, garybusey said: If you assume he wore a wire - If I had to guess, it's the bolded, but it's nothing more than an educated guess. Each Mueller indictment has had surprises nobody predicted. So, you're guess is that he was gather ingintel on someone other than Trump but that person/people could or could not be related to Trump. Guess that's fair enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koko78 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 2 hours ago, garybusey said: No, Van Grack, an associate of Muellers, ordered the restrictions. The judge accepted them. Muellers team can adjust the restrictions. Pretty sure you don't understand how courts work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Zevon Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 8 minutes ago, Koko78 said: Pretty sure you don't understand how courts work... What am I missing Professor Chaos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 30 minutes ago, garybusey said: What am I missing Professor Chaos? That the judge's acceptance makes them legally binding as a court order, meaning Mueller's team can't adjust them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, garybusey said: I disagree they are hiding their intent. They are following procedure. It's common for the prosecution in any case to place restrictions on the indicted so he/she can be charged if they break the restrictions without consent from the prosecution. It's done in front of the judge so the judge is witness to the restriction agreement - which is the exact reason the judge reiterates these restrictions. Now you've moved from addressing the question I raised to stating something that's tangential. I don't say that to be a dick, I say it to try to keep the conversation on track. I'm not saying they are hiding their intent, there is no need for them to hide it since the hearing was a closed session and it didn't break until after Pap was done. I was saying, and I could be wrong in which case I'd love for you to clarify, that if your answer to my question is accurate, then that means Mueller and company were deliberately misleading the court - the only reason I can come up with as to why they'd do that is in order to hide their true target. That seems silly to me, I don't agree with it, and I'm not saying you do either - just that it's the only way to make your explanation fit. Remember where this started: 3 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said: He also ignores, like others on here, that Papadopoulos was ordered not to have any contact with Trump or his team during the time he was allegedly "wearing a wire". So if he was wearing a wire and not able to talk to Trump or his team... who was Mueller trying to get Papadopoulos to spy on? There's never an answer given to this mystery by the partisans. 3 hours ago, garybusey said: The prosecution has the ability to adjust these restrictions as necessary. That was the exchange that got us here. I'm not trying to nitpick or win, I'm trying to engage you in an honest discussion rather than our normal bickering. You offered the above as an explanation, but it's not. Or if it is, you haven't explained it fully enough for me to grasp. 1 hour ago, garybusey said: If you assume he wore a wire - If I had to guess, it's the bolded, but it's nothing more than an educated guess. Each Mueller indictment has had surprises nobody predicted. I'm not trying to pin you down on Pap wearing a wire. You don't want to agree that he was, that's fine. You're right no one "knows" if he was. But we can discuss the hypothetical because it was something many people agreed on for months. More importantly, we DO know he was indicted and quickly released back into the wild to be a cooperative witness against someone. This is undeniable. And your answer to the above just brings us back full circle to the original question I posed that no one has yet to offer a good explanation for: Why was Pap ordered to not have any contact with Trump or his team if Mueller was using him to target Trump or his team? It doesn't make sense. Just because they can change the list doesn't explain this oddity. Can you explain it any other way, assuming for the sake of argument Pap was wearing a wire? The only thing that does make sense, all the way through, is that Mueller was using Pap to target people NOT associated with the charges against Pap. That leaves a very small circle of people, and none of them are connected to Trump or his team. This is an important bit to keep in mind because Pap is being heralded as the origin of the FBI investigation (a demonstrable lie) and the guy who will bring down Trump because he was secretly cooperating with Mueller for months unbeknownst to anyone in the press or Trump's team. That's not me making those claims, it's the NYT, the WaPo, dozens and dozens of talking heads in the MSM. They've made those claims, or variations of them, for MONTHS. Yet, none of them can rectify that incongruity: Pap was ordered by Mueller and the judge NOT to have contact with Trump or his team. Why would Mueller prohibit Pap from talking to the very people he's trying to investigate? Something doesn't add up. Wouldn't you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Same time as Trump? Joseph Mifsud, the professor who allegedly told ex-Trump aide George Papadopoulos about Russian “dirt” on Clinton has been off-the-radar since his name went public, according to BuzzFeed News interviews with Mifsud’s fiancée. At the time, Mifsud allegedly told his then-girlfriend “Anna” that he had dinner with Russian Minister Sergey Lavrov, that he had been questioned by the FBI, and that he was in Saudi Arabia and Sicily, Italy at the same time President Trump was in both cities. “Anna” had an on-and-off relationship with Mifsud for three years, with them meeting in places like Rome, Kiev, and Moscow, and proposed to her in October 2015. “Anna” eventually got pregnant, and Mifsud claimed he was unable to see her because of an illness related to the heart. After an Italian newspapernamed Mifsud on November 1 as the unidentified professor previously cited as having spoken to Papadopoulos, Mifsud went completely dark, ceasing to answer “Anna” altogether. The last time she heard from the professor was October 31, when “Anna” told him that she was being asked questions from a reporter in London. Mifsud responded: “Do not reply, please.” READ IT AT BUZZFEED NEWS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 ********************************************* Golly gee, who saw this coming? https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/27/politics/sessions-fisa-fbi-justice-carter-page-nunes-memo/index.html (Hint, Horowitz is already looking at this, and has been for awhile. As has Sessions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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