Donald Jones says coaches do not teach players fundamentals

[CardinalScotts]

i really think it depends on the coach, do you have teachers on your staff ? Do you feel like you need them ? Rexs guys to me more about prep and expecting guys to know or learn from other players. I'd say the same about Bellichik staff.....but KC is a teach staff, I think Seattle is a teach staff, Atlanta teach staff. I think it goes both ways key is to know your players

[Beef Jerky]

I'm not buying it. We see tape of guys working on technique in OTA's and training camp all the time. Perhaps during the season it is all about the playbook, gameplan, and situational awareness for that week.

Yea players are working on Technique... they shouldn't need their hand held for everything. Coaches don't have the time to teach technique anymore, you barely have time to teach the playbook. Donaldson should blame the practice schedule and the players association for the new CBA.

[PolishDave]

How on earth would Pegula know which of his coaches were or were not teaching "technique"?

 

This is a guy who fell asleep when he watched film with Rex.

 

That's not what I meant. I meant - If Pegula knows what Donald Jones said about coaches in the NFL. I didn't mean Pegula would supervise the position coaches in some way.

 

However he could find that information out by having his own team hired trainers on staff who sit in on practices and training camp.

 

Makes me wonder how the Pats can get guys from a dumpster and turn them into all stars. Maybe the coaches emphasize different aspects of the game. Maybe their playbook is simpler, and it is up to the players to execute. Maybe they coach technique along with the plays. I have no idea. I just don't understand how one team can dominate so much in the parity league. I know the easy answer is that Brady is the key, but I think there is more to it than that.

 

In my opinion, the Patriots are as good as they are (on offense) because they drill the same plays over and over and over again year after year. At least that is how it appears to me. And they have a QB who can execute his part of the play with extremely high precision. And those plays are well designed plays that are very hard to defend when you are playing against a QB who can execute at his extremely high level.

 

 

Fans make a lot of assumptions about the professionalism and competence of NFL players......coaches.......and scouts.

 

The reality is that the players are mostly just free-wheeling 20-something young men that don't always make "professional decisions".......don't always give full effort......and often don't enjoy the game.

 

The coaches and scouts are often just glorified phys ed teachers........many of them lunkheads with a specialty in certain aspects of the game of football.

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist.......but that is why a really astute football mind like Belichick can routinely "pants" a lot of these guys over and over.

 

I suppose you are right. Coaches and players are just regular people. A lot of them probably do the least amount of work possible on and off the field. A small percentage of them try to become the best at their job.

[mead107]

You always hear about them teaching foot work

[BarleyNY]

Listening to John Murphy show yesterday while driving around - I heard Donald talk about players being developed in the NFL.

 

Donald said that "a lot" of coaches in the NFL do not actually teach technique to players. Instead they just make sure the players know the playbook.

 

He explained that some coaches are more interested in keeping their job and moving up the ladder. That is the reason he used as why the coaches focus on the playbook. If you think about it, it makes sense. If a player has bad technique, the player gets blamed for failure. If the player doesn't know the play, then it looks like the position coach is not doing his job.

 

Donald went on to explain that a lot of times, the player is what he is when he is drafted. And the player is left to succeed or fail based on his own ability.

 

You would think that every position coach is there to teach proper technique and that would be their primary focus. Apparently it isn't.

 

He did specifically credit Sanjay Lal (Bills wide receiver coach) as being a great coach who actually teaches techniques and route running.

 

I wonder what kind of coaches McDermott has brought in here? Are they technique teachers or are they playbook guys?

 

Explains a lot. And also explains why some players don't get better. I hope we have technique teachers.

First, thanks for sharing what you heard and starting a thread on a worthwhile topic (which are pretty rare right now). Last year I caught a related tidbit about the Browns as one anonymous player noted that there was more coaching done at the first practice under Hue Jackson than there had been by the previous 3 coaching regimes combined. That says a lot about why they have been so bad for so long. I really hope McD and his staff are the right kind of coaches and do well here.

[dave mcbride]

Fans make a lot of assumptions about the professionalism and competence of NFL players......coaches.......and scouts.

 

The reality is that the players are mostly just free-wheeling 20-something young men that don't always make "professional decisions".......don't always give full effort......and often don't enjoy the game.

 

The coaches and scouts are often just glorified phys ed teachers........many of them lunkheads with a specialty in certain aspects of the game of football.

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist.......but that is why a really astute football mind like Belichick can routinely "pants" a lot of these guys over and over.

+1. Been saying this for years (as have you)! You just know that the bills defensive coaches under rex were focused on scheme over technique (and it showed). They had to, i guess, given the complexity of the scheme and the defensive squad's low overall intelligence level.

[3rdand12]

First, thanks for sharing what you heard and starting a thread on a worthwhile topic (which are pretty rare right now). Last year I caught a related tidbit about the Browns as one anonymous player noted that there was more coaching done at the first practice under Hue Jackson than there had been by the previous 3 coaching regimes combined. That says a lot about why they have been so bad for so long. I really hope McD and his staff are the right kind of coaches and do well here.

It is a decent subject matter. Something I had not considered in depth whatsoever.

[machine gun kelly]

Funny as player after player retired and active for the Patriots always say they work on the fundamentals daily. Maybe that's the difference between the great teams and the mediocre ones.

 

Just remember though this is one guy's opinion. Also, if I'm in the NFL and I'm fighting for the big second contract, after a month off to heal, I would work non-Stop at conditioning and technique on my own dime. Very few players ever get to a third contract.

[3rdand12]

Funny as player after player retired and active for the Patriots always say they work on the fundamentals daily. Maybe that's the difference between the great teams and the mediocre ones.

 

Just remember though this is one guy's opinion. Also, if I'm in the NFL and I'm fighting for the big second contract, after a month off to heal, I would work non-Stop at conditioning and technique on my own dime. Very few players ever get to a third contract.

I wonder if it was a left handed reference to the Bills though?

[hondo in seattle]

Listening to John Murphy show yesterday while driving around - I heard Donald talk about players being developed in the NFL.

 

Donald said that "a lot" of coaches in the NFL do not actually teach technique to players. Instead they just make sure the players know the playbook.

 

He explained that some coaches are more interested in keeping their job and moving up the ladder. That is the reason he used as why the coaches focus on the playbook. If you think about it, it makes sense. If a player has bad technique, the player gets blamed for failure. If the player doesn't know the play, then it looks like the position coach is not doing his job.

 

Donald went on to explain that a lot of times, the player is what he is when he is drafted. And the player is left to succeed or fail based on his own ability.

 

You would think that every position coach is there to teach proper technique and that would be their primary focus. Apparently it isn't.

 

He did specifically credit Sanjay Lal (Bills wide receiver coach) as being a great coach who actually teaches techniques and route running.

 

I wonder what kind of coaches McDermott has brought in here? Are they technique teachers or are they playbook guys?

 

Explains a lot. And also explains why some players don't get better. I hope we have technique teachers.

 

This doesn't surprise me because we've heard it many times before.

 

Fitz said that the first time anyone tried to coach his mechanics was when he came to the Bills.

 

QBs have said they spend time with with QB gurus like Tom House because they don't get that kind of tutoring on fundamentals with their teams.

 

Etc.

 

I don't know if Donald Jones puts the blame in the right place. But he has no reason to lie about some position coaches not teaching technique. And Polish Dave is right in hoping our coaches are better than this. Guys don't come out of college with perfect technique. Someone needs to coach them up.

Edited February 12, 2017 by hondo in seattle

[PolishDave]

Funny as player after player retired and active for the Patriots always say they work on the fundamentals daily. Maybe that's the difference between the great teams and the mediocre ones.

 

Just remember though this is one guy's opinion. Also, if I'm in the NFL and I'm fighting for the big second contract, after a month off to heal, I would work non-Stop at conditioning and technique on my own dime. Very few players ever get to a third contract.

 

Donald was a wide receiver for the Bills and the Patriots. So it is about as credible as it gets. He was speaking from experience. It's not really his opinion, it is more fact. Unless you think he was lying for some reason - which I don't. If you listened to it you could tell he was speaking sincerely and honestly based on his own NFL experience.

 

I wonder if it was a left handed reference to the Bills though?

 

Could have been, even if it was unintentional. He did go out of his way to say that Sanjay Lal was a teacher though. He said that Sanjay has improved Sammy's technique a lot. He said when Sammy got drafted he was just a "go deep guy". Donald said Sanjay has coached Sammy to be able to run better routes so he can be used more effectively in more routes rather than just the deep ones. I think it makes sense.

 

I am sure that most of the players in the NFL realize what Donald said is exactly true. It's just not something that gets talked about because players aren't going to admit their skills are sub-par.

 

 

 

This doesn't surprise me because we've heard it many times before.

 

Fitz said that the first time anyone tried to coach his mechanics was when he came to the Bills.

 

QBs have said they spend time with with QB gurus like Tom House because they don't get that kind of tutoring on fundamentals with their teams.

 

Etc.

 

I don't know if Donald Jones puts the blame in the right place. But he has no reason to lie about some position coaches not teaching technique. And Polish Dave is right in hoping our coaches are better than this. Guys don't come out of college with perfect technique. Someone needs to coach them up.

 

The title of the thread may make it appear that Donald was making a bold statement about coaching in the NFL like he was on a mission or something. That isn't what happened. A caller called in and asked him about receivers in the draft and what is more important - technique and speed or things like body size and catching radius. Donald started talking about how important technique is because ....... That lead to the part where he explained some coaches place maximum emphasis on the playbook and not much emphasis on teaching technique and fundamentals. Those are my words paraphrasing obviously - not a quote word for word. That was the general gist of it.

 

Donald wasn't really blaming anybody for anything. That's not how I meant it to sound. He was simply revealing one of the insider bits of knowledge that only other players and coaches know about the NFL. It caught my attention because he explained it matter of factly - as if everyone in the NFL knows this except the fans.

 

Wow - on the Fitz comment. Shows it is probably more league wide.

 

I guess with the high amount of turnover in coaching, it shouldn't be all that surprising. If you are a position coach in the NFL - unless you manage to hitch your wagon to a really successful head coach, your career prospects are short term. No wonder that some guys are more concerned about moving up the ranks and saving their jobs rather than performing their job to the best interests of the team/players.

[John from Riverside]

 

 

How on earth would Pegula know which of his coaches were or were not teaching "technique"?

 

This is a guy who fell asleep when he watched film with Rex.

yeah really not pegulas job to know this

 

thats why u have a hc and gm

[CanadianFan]

There are a lot of college coaches that are "recruiters" and nothing else. It is a freaking shame.

 

Yeah I agree. Look at Tebow. He has all kinds of issues with mechanics. Heck I have a better throwing motion then he does. and in 4 years of college, what did his coach teach? I love Urban Meyer (i dont care for OSU) but him or his coaches didn't fix Tebow. But Meyer's a hell of a talker and motivator though so there's much to what you say.

[CanadianFan]

 

The reality is that the players are mostly just free-wheeling 20-something young men that don't always make "professional decisions"......

 

That's my point about Belicheat and the culture he cultivates in NE, what he gets right. He doesn't care for those types of players. He takes on one or two of those miscreants if he thinks he can change them. Remember Randy Moss? He had one monster year in that almost perfect season. The next year he started talking about himself and money, and he was gone mid-season. Then was out of the league for good. Moss was one exception to Pats' mold. Otherwise, that's not the type Belicheat goes after. players like Hogan, etc. are Belicheat's type.

 

You look at San Antonio Spurs, they choose personality of players over sheer talent. There's a certain mold to them. Kawhi Leonard is the most humble superstar in this game. Look at Duncan. Robinson. Nobody's Antonio Brown or wat'shisface with Giants. And my Toronto Raptors (WeTheNorth!) have been been choosing a certain type of persona with players as well - those who are humble down to earth, no brash "me first" attitude guys. While talent level with Raptors is NOT high (half the teams in Eastern Conference are more talented IMO), they have been successful due to worth ethic and sheer focus on player growth. While it was painful over the losing years, the transformation with the same set of core has been something to watch. There's VISIBLE GROWTH of each player each season. Each of them come back after the summer with an improvement to some aspect of their game and/or to their body because frankly, there just isn't enough time to work on their game during the season.

 

So this is where Whaley has to pick and be choosy about the type of players he picks. I'm glad he cut Karlos Williams. That also set an example to the rest of the players - if you don't do the work off season, you're not welcome. The task is to not waste a pick on that type of players.

[hondo in seattle]

 

Donald was a wide receiver for the Bills and the Patriots. So it is about as credible as it gets. He was speaking from experience. It's not really his opinion, it is more fact. Unless you think he was lying for some reason - which I don't. If you listened to it you could tell he was speaking sincerely and honestly based on his own NFL experience.

 

 

Could have been, even if it was unintentional. He did go out of his way to say that Sanjay Lal was a teacher though. He said that Sanjay has improved Sammy's technique a lot. He said when Sammy got drafted he was just a "go deep guy". Donald said Sanjay has coached Sammy to be able to run better routes so he can be used more effectively in more routes rather than just the deep ones. I think it makes sense.

 

I am sure that most of the players in the NFL realize what Donald said is exactly true. It's just not something that gets talked about because players aren't going to admit their skills are sub-par.

 

 

 

The title of the thread may make it appear that Donald was making a bold statement about coaching in the NFL like he was on a mission or something. That isn't what happened. A caller called in and asked him about receivers in the draft and what is more important - technique and speed or things like body size and catching radius. Donald started talking about how important technique is because ....... That lead to the part where he explained some coaches place maximum emphasis on the playbook and not much emphasis on teaching technique and fundamentals. Those are my words paraphrasing obviously - not a quote word for word. That was the general gist of it.

 

Donald wasn't really blaming anybody for anything. That's not how I meant it to sound. He was simply revealing one of the insider bits of knowledge that only other players and coaches know about the NFL. It caught my attention because he explained it matter of factly - as if everyone in the NFL knows this except the fans.

 

Wow - on the Fitz comment. Shows it is probably more league wide.

 

I guess with the high amount of turnover in coaching, it shouldn't be all that surprising. If you are a position coach in the NFL - unless you manage to hitch your wagon to a really successful head coach, your career prospects are short term. No wonder that some guys are more concerned about moving up the ranks and saving their jobs rather than performing their job to the best interests of the team/players.

 

Thanks for the clarification, PD. Good posts. For me, this is interesting stuff.

 

I think when we hear the word "coach," we automatically expect that NFL coaches are coaching technique. In fact, they all spend a lot of time getting players to memorize the plays, know the game plan, understand the scheme, learn tendencies from film study, etc. And players don't spend all their time with their position coaches. They also have time with the trainers and strength & conditioning coaches. So some coaches, depending on how they manage their time, don't actually have any to teach fundamentals.

Bill Walsh, an exception, said that the 49ers identified something like 30 individual techniques that a lineman had to master in order to excel in the NFL. So when he ran the club, they practiced those techniques over and over until they mastered them. They had a similar approach for each position. This seems like common sense, but apparently not.

[Big Turk]

Probably true to a great degree...so much going on during game weeks, no time for it. Better hope they can drill it home during OTA's, Minicamps and Training Camp...once the season starts it's kind of up to the players

[3rdand12]

 

Thanks for the clarification, PD. Good posts. For me, this is interesting stuff.

 

I think when we hear the word "coach," we automatically expect that NFL coaches are coaching technique. In fact, they all spend a lot of time getting players to memorize the plays, know the game plan, understand the scheme, learn tendencies from film study, etc. And players don't spend all their time with their position coaches. They also have time with the trainers and strength & conditioning coaches. So some coaches, depending on how they manage their time, don't actually have any to teach fundamentals.

Bill Walsh, an exception, said that the 49ers identified something like 30 individual techniques that a lineman had to master in order to excel in the NFL. So when he ran the club, they practiced those techniques over and over until they mastered them. They had a similar approach for each position. This seems like common sense, but apparently not.

good follow up hondo

[dave mcbride]

 

That's my point about Belicheat and the culture he cultivates in NE, what he gets right. He doesn't care for those types of players. He takes on one or two of those miscreants if he thinks he can change them. Remember Randy Moss? He had one monster year in that almost perfect season. The next year he started talking about himself and money, and he was gone mid-season. Then was out of the league for good. Moss was one exception to Pats' mold. Otherwise, that's not the type Belicheat goes after. players like Hogan, etc. are Belicheat's type.

 

 

This is not true. Moss had a great season in 2008 given who the QB was (Cassel), and he led the league in receiving TDs in 2009. He had three excellent seasons there.

[Malazan]

I'm not sure about this as there's a lot of evidence to the contrary from training camps each season. I didn't hear it, but it seems like there is more information needed.

[rant_and_go]

Two way street. NFL players are spoiled millionaires and stopped maturing as teenagers. Slightest misstep will ruin a relationship. Why increase the surface area of it by teaching stances or steps?