Gilmore: The Shadow Knows

[Jerry Jabber]

No, I got the joke--it was lame as a joke, but even lamer as a response

 

Thanks for the rankings from 6 weeks ago--great stuff

 

PFF's grades often don't match up with their own advanced stats.

 

They themselves have Gilmore at 2 TDs allowed and a 67 passer rating against.

 

Yet somehow that doesn't compare to Sean Smith, who routinely gets abused in coverage.

 

Ever remember Gilmore allowing a 98-yard TD? Yeah, me neither.

 

Find me another corner with those numbers...believe it or not, it'll bolster your stance better than a lame joke.

The only one that's lame is you with your obsession with Gilmore. Anytime anyone says anything bad about Gilmore, you defend him to death. So what it is, are you an obsessed Gilmore fan, a family member of his, you have a man-crush on him? Keep defending Superman, that way he can go somewhere and get the elite payday he is looking for.

[FireChan]

AB only getting 5 targets is more the story than anything Gilly did that game.

[thebandit27]

The only one that's lame is you with your obsession with Gilmore. Anytime anyone says anything bad about Gilmore, you defend him to death. So what it is, are you an obsessed Gilmore fan, a family member of his, you have a man-crush on him? Keep defending Superman, that way he can go somewhere and get the elite payday he is looking for.

It's obsession...with having to debunk false narratives.

 

I was among the first to call out his horrendous play against the Jets and Patriots, so your supposition that I am somehow biased in his favor is simply wrong.

 

I call it like it is, and it rankles me when folks can't see what's right in front of their faces, choosing instead to perpetuate a myth about a guy's level of play.

 

I do the same with any player, in any direction.

 

If someone tries to tell me that Zach Brown had a great season, I'm going to point out the dozen or so times that he missed his assignment in pass coverage, etc.

 

Stick to the facts and build opinion off of that--not the other way around.

[dave mcbride]

The only one that's lame is you with your obsession with Gilmore. Anytime anyone says anything bad about Gilmore, you defend him to death. So what it is, are you an obsessed Gilmore fan, a family member of his, you have a man-crush on him? Keep defending Superman, that way he can go somewhere and get the elite payday he is looking for.

No offense, but you're not making a fact-based argument here.

[thebandit27]

AB only getting 5 targets is more the story than anything Gilly did that game.

5 targets in the 18 pass routes he ran in the 31 plays during which he was matched against Gilmore--just clarifying

[FireChan]

5 targets in the 18 pass routes he ran in the 31 plays during which he was matched against Gilmore--just clarifying

He was matched with Gilmore on 18 of the 31 pass plays and only was targeted 5 times. He was targeted 6 times the rest of the game for a total of 11.

 

Hardly "shadowing" when you see less than half the dudes targets.

[Jerry Jabber]

No offense, but you're not making a fact-based argument here.

I did previously when I discussed Gilmore's stats from the first Jets game. You can't argue with someone who has a biased opinion stuck in their mind that a player is elite, even though you show evidence that disproves that idea.

 

Gilmore is a good CB, but he is inconsistent as his play has shown throughout his career. There are games, especially early on in the season where it looks like he regressed significantly, then there are games where he looks borderline dominant.

[PatsFanNH]

More like you are trying to use one (or two actually ) bad game to marginalize an entire season of great play.

 

Anyone that looks at his numbers and calls him average is loony.

 

2 TDs allowed all season and a 67 passer rating allowed.

 

Average?

 

Who had more tackles this year: Gilmore or Richard Sherman?

 

Who had more INTs?

 

Who had a lower passer rating allowed?

 

Who allowed more TDs?

 

I eagerly await your response.

Sherman >>>>>>>> Gilmore and it isn't even close. I take Sherman everyday and twice on Sunday before Gilmore and that isn't saying Gilmore sucks.

[thebandit27]

I did previously when I discussed Gilmore's stats from the first Jets game. You can't argue with someone who has a biased opinion stuck in their mind that a player is elite, even though you show evidence that disproves that idea.

 

Gilmore is a good CB, but he is inconsistent as his play has shown throughout his career. There are games, especially early on in the season where it looks like he regressed significantly, then there are games where he looks borderline dominant.

If you were so focused on facts, then why look only at the Jets game and refuse to acknowledge the rest of the season for contextual purposes?

 

You know what that's called?

 

Confirmation bias.

 

Interesting that you would cast such an aspersion without recognizing it in your own argument.

Sherman >>>>>>>> Gilmore and it isn't even close. I take Sherman everyday and twice on Sunday before Gilmore and that isn't saying Gilmore sucks.

It's a lot closer than you think, even though I agree that Sherman is better.

 

The point is this: if we evaluate every corner the same way this board does with Gilmore, then we'd hear about how Sherman is "average at best" because he has fewer INTs, fewer tackles, more TDs allowed, and got roasted repeatedly by Robert Woods on MNF.

 

But, when we take his entire body of work into account, he's an excellent player.

 

Unfortunately for discussion's purposes, many folks on this board miss the part about context and body of work.

[Mr. WEO]

LOL, Pryor shut down...

[MDH]

Bills fans thought process on if a player is good:

 

Does he make big money?

 

Yes. - He is not good

No - All-star, blue collar guy, embraces the city of Buffalo.

 

 

This is pretty much it.

[thebandit27]

LOL, Pryor shut down...

 

Not sure if you didn't see him play this year, but he gave some pretty good corners fits. He had 4 catches in the first half against Josh Norman, and had his way with the Giants' big-money secondary.

[Webster Guy]

Yea he is good and all that but his lack of tackling ability sure makes it tough to appreciate his other skills.

 

No character. Average cover skills, weak tackler, afraid of big runners. Antoine Winfield throws up every time he watches Gilmore play.

 

Jarius Byrd 2.0

 

See Ya. Bring on Seymour and use the Gimore money to sign a stud WR or safety

[CommonCents]

Hey look another running back just hurdled Gilmore. That must be embarrassing when they all sit down and watch the tape.

[MDH]

 

No character. Average cover skills, weak tackler, afraid of big runners. Antoine Winfield throws up every time he watches Gilmore play.

 

Jarius Byrd 2.0

 

See Ya. Bring on Seymour and use the Gimore money to sign a stud WR or safety

 

I don't think you have a clue what "average coverage skills" means if you think that describes Gilmore.

 

I'm not claiming the Bills should tag him or give him a top 5 contract (I think it's a very tough decision given their cap status) but the guy is a top 10 CB in the league.

 

I think the problem Bills' fans have is their investment in the team. When they watch the Bills every completion against Gilmore gets a "Jesus, Gilmore again!" type response. Do that 40 times a year and you've convinced yourself he sucks. When they watch other teams they don't even pay attention to who is getting thrown on and are more likely to look at it as, "that was a great pass!"

 

The numbers against Gilmore don't lie, people who hate him just focus so much on the bad that they don't appreciate his worth.

[thebandit27]

 

No character. Average cover skills, weak tackler, afraid of big runners. Antoine Winfield throws up every time he watches Gilmore play.

 

Jarius Byrd 2.0

 

See Ya. Bring on Seymour and use the Gimore money to sign a stud WR or safety

 

Posts like this are the exact type of make-stuff-up content that add nothing to the discussion.

 

Hey look another running back just hurdled Gilmore. That must be embarrassing when they all sit down and watch the tape.

 

Good thing this doesn't happen practically every week...

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/watch-eddie-lacy-steals-ezekiel-elliotts-move-hurdles-cowboys-defenders-twice/

http://www.patspulpit.com/2016/9/18/12960756/watch-patriots-rb-legarrette-blount-hurdles-over-a-dolphins-defender-for-a-big-gain

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000709935/Ezekiel-Elliott-hurdles-defender-for-14-yards

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/10/nfl-david-johnson-arizona-cardinals-hurdle-panthers

 

But as is customary with this board: Gilmore is the only DB in the NFL that ever has negative plays. Ever.

 

The numbers against Gilmore don't lie, people who hate him just focus so much on the bad that they don't appreciate his worth.

 

Correct.

I was reliably informed that Stephon Gilmore is crap. How can these stats be? Erik must be lying

 

On a serious note, let me his rattle off his full stats (courtesy of PFF). Also, a comparison to 2015.

 

2015 (12 games) - 92 targets, 50 receptions (54.3% completion rate), 666 yards (13.3 YPC), 190 YAC, 5 TDs allowed, 3 INT, 6 PD.

 

2016 (15 games) - 69 targets (nice!), 40 receptions (58% completion rate), 627 yards (15.7 YPC), 188 YAC, 2 TDs allowed, 5 INT, 7 PD.

 

For comparison:

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-why-beasley-rodgers-and-other-top-players-didnt-make-pffs-all-pro-team/

 

2. Patrick Peterson, CB, Arizona Cardinals

Peterson routinely has as tough an assignment as any corner in the game. He will play a lot of man coverage, and is one of the few corners asked to track receivers all over the field – including to the slot. As a consequence you often have to weight his performance in the light of other players that have an easier role within their defensive scheme, and in the past it has been enough to leap him above players into PFF All-Pro and Pro Bowl teams, but not this year.

Peterson has been good this year, but he has allowed as many touchdowns (three) as he has interceptions, and allowed 60.6 percent of the passes thrown his way to be caught, a career high. When targeted he allowed a passer rating of 80.7, which wasn’t bad, but ranks 30th in the league and not in the same ballpark as players like Aqib Talib, who led the NFL at 47.0.

------------------------------------------------

Gilmore had more interceptions, fewer TDs allowed, and a lower passer rating against than Patrick Peterson, and yet I'm reading about how he has average coverage skills.

[hondo in seattle]

 

He had a couple of bad games early on, but really played well almost all season long. The Bills will certainly miss him if he moves on.

 

Agreed.

 

I think too often we fans require perfection from our players instead of thinking about comparative ability.

 

Gilmore, flaws and all, is likely better than the man who would replace him if he signs elsewhere.

 

I would like a coach, though, to talk to him about his tackling technique.

Edited January 6, 2017 by hondo in seattle

[PatsFanNH]

Reading the posts I just have ONE big question. Could his numbers look so good because teams just didn't pass that much on the Bills? I do know they were ranked 30th against the run but 6th against the pass, which makes me think people pretty much BULLIED Rex's bullies.

[thebandit27]

Reading the posts I just have ONE big question. Could his numbers look so good because teams just didn't pass that much on the Bills? I do know they were ranked 30th against the run but 6th against the pass, which makes me think people pretty much BULLIED Rex's bullies.

 

Well, you could argue that because the team faced the fewest pass attempts in the NFL, the resultant number of coverage snaps he played bring the cumulative total of his numbers down, sure.

 

That would not, however, account for the fact that his passer rating allowed was lower than other "elite" corners, nor would it correlate to him having more INTs than guys like Sherman--who faced more pass attempts.

[PatsFanNH]

 

Well, you could argue that because the team faced the fewest pass attempts in the NFL, the resultant number of coverage snaps he played bring the cumulative total of his numbers down, sure.

 

That would not, however, account for the fact that his passer rating allowed was lower than other "elite" corners, nor would it correlate to him having more INTs than guys like Sherman--who faced more pass attempts.

What I was getting at is since he had fewer coverage snaps it inflates those snaps as the teams who are passing well probably aren't that good. It's not like he shut down Brown but rather the Steelers used Bell to smash the Bills thus instead of his usual 15 attempts to Brown he only got 5. Meanwhile Gilmore performed poorly in taking down Bell..(as did everyone else) thus how everyone here is stating he is a poor tackler.. using a player I see all the time, Butler, he is a dang good cover corner but he also lays the wood down on RB as well so does Logan Ryan (who is not that good lol)