Let's stop the Watkins is a bust nonsense...its WRONG...

[Gugny]

I would argue none. The last three of last year he definitely was not 100%, and he dominated. Healthier than most times but his foot was still very very sore. And he was hobbling.

 

I think he hobbled off the field on Sunday because he knew if he stayed out there he was going to get killed. The pass that EJ threw behind him on the right side of the field was deadly.

 

Sammy Watkins' fragility (not criticizing; it's just a fact) is another solid reason why keeping Tyrod is not a good idea.

[Cripple Creek]

There are many receivers I would choose over Watkins, even some who are long in the tooth.

 

He has not lived up to expectations. (this cannot be denied) I don't know what that makes him, but, to this point you cannot say he was a worthwhile pick.

[Kirby Jackson]

There are many receivers I would choose over Watkins, even some who are long in the tooth.

 

He has not lived up to expectations. (this cannot be denied) I don't know what that makes him, but, to this point you cannot say he was a worthwhile pick.

Are they guys that you prefer as players or because they play more? It's a big distinction. When he is on the field he is in the league with the top guys. The 2nd half of 2015 and his per target numbers support that. The problem is that he has played just over 12 games a year and has left multiple games early. If you prefer other guys because you can depend on them more, that is fair to this point.

[Cripple Creek]

Are they guys that you prefer as players or because they play more? It's a big distinction. When he is on the field he is in the league with the top guys. The 2nd half of 2015 and his per target numbers support that. The problem is that he has played just over 12 games a year and has left multiple games early. If you prefer other guys because you can depend on them more, that is fair to this point.

of course, production matters over all else, doesn't it?

 

General ??? At what point does potential become wasted potential (whether through personal stupidity, injury, scheme etc)?

[Kirby Jackson]

of course, production matters over all else, doesn't it?

 

General ??? At what point does potential become wasted potential (whether through personal stupidity, injury, scheme etc)?

We aren't talking about potential. His per target production ranks with anyone. His snap count does not. That is why I asked the question.

[Nuncha]

He can't stay heathy and he plays soft.....Not good qualities for your number 1 WR.

 

A bust? Maybe not but he certainly wasn't worth TWO number 1 picks coming from a draft that was VERY deep at WR.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Azucho98

[thebandit27]

He can't stay heathy and he plays soft.....Not good qualities for your number 1 WR.

 

A bust? Maybe not but he certainly wasn't worth TWO number 1 picks coming from a draft that was VERY deep at WR.

He plays SOFT?

 

I'll await an example of that, while reminding you that he's played through rib, hip, groin, and foot injuries for 37 games.

[Cripple Creek]

We aren't talking about potential. His per target production ranks with anyone. His snap count does not. That is why I asked the question.

that may be your criteria, don't push it on me. Has he live up to his draft status? No. could he still? Yes, but the window is closing. His current production at the price paid say he was not worth it. You can throw out per snap this, per series that...doesn't matter to me. His overall production will be the determining factor on whether he was a "bust" or not.

[What a Tuel]

that may be your criteria, don't push it on me. Has he live up to his draft status? No. could he still? Yes, but the window is closing. His current production at the price paid say he was not worth it. You can throw out per snap this, per series that...doesn't matter to me. His overall production will be the determining factor on whether he was a "bust" or not.

 

There are two distinctions here that you are ignoring. Sammy Watkins is a top WR when he is healthy and on the field. That is unquestionable. To say you don't believe he has that talent because he doesn't produce on the level that you believe he should is nonsensical. You either make the distinction that he doesn't have the talent, or you stick with your point that he isn't producing because he isn't consistently on the field.

 

In a lot of people's opinion he has the talent, and has proven it on the field when healthy, he just needs to stay healthy and then he will be great for the Bills. Let's hope that starts this year after getting his foot right.

Edited January 3, 2017 by What a Tuel

[CardinalScotts]

I'll just say this he's 23 and we havent seem the best of him even start. Hopefully good health in 2017

[Alphadawg7]

He plays SOFT?

 

I'll await an example of that, while reminding you that he's played through rib, hip, groin, and foot injuries for 37 games.

 

I have to say Bandit, you are one of the few I respect around here by keeping a level head about things. The simple lack of logic and reason by so many posters around here is astonishing. How anyone can say Sammy plays soft is beyond me. He was one of the most dominant and productive receivers in football last year after he got healthy (and most the people slamming him also say Taylor is terrible, which would actually make Sammy that much better if he accomplished so much with what they call a terrible QB). The kid has played through all those injuries you mentioned where a lot of guys would have sat out. He goes over the middle, makes tough catches, etc. Enough with the Sammy bashing, he is an immense talent, and hopefully he can get the foot right this off season and be ready to a force like we KNOW he can be when healthy next year.

[Nuncha]

He plays SOFT?

 

I'll await an example of that, while reminding you that he's played through rib, hip, groin, and foot injuries for 37 games.

You don't see him duck out of bounds way ahead of defenders so he doesn't get hit? TV announcers notice and comment about it...he never goes and gets all he can.

[fansince88]

I like Watkins a lot and it is a shame he cant stay healthy.

 

With that said, he isn't a bust, but I think at this point he would have to be seen as a reach. 2 first rounders given up for him, (QB issues aside) and evans and OBJ (and arguably others) picked after him have been more productive.

 

Not saying he is a bust, but I don't think he was worth what we gave up, which I guess is a reach.

 

If he can somehow stay healthy, he will help this team get on the right track. huge if at this point

Agree. He isnt a bust but is a dissapointnent

[Cripple Creek]

There are two distinctions here that you are ignoring. Sammy Watkins is a top WR when he is healthy and on the field. That is unquestionable. To say you don't believe he has that talent because he doesn't produce on the level that you believe he should is nonsensical. You either make the distinction that he doesn't have the talent, or you stick with your point that he isn't producing because he isn't consistently on the field.

 

In a lot of people's opinion he has the talent, and has proven it on the field when healthy, he just needs to stay healthy and then he will be great for the Bills. Let's hope that starts this year after getting his foot right.

I'm not ignoring anything. He's good when on the field, really good. If he can't overcome the injury bug and put up numbers worthy of a 2 first round pick WR then he is lacking. Someone who does not live up to their draft status is by definition "a bust." The window hasn't closed, but, it is creeping down those runners.

[thebandit27]

 

I have to say Bandit, you are one of the few I respect around here by keeping a level head about things. The simple lack of logic and reason by so many posters around here is astonishing. How anyone can say Sammy plays soft is beyond me. He was one of the most dominant and productive receivers in football last year after he got healthy (and most the people slamming him also say Taylor is terrible, which would actually make Sammy that much better if he accomplished so much with what they call a terrible QB). The kid has played through all those injuries you mentioned where a lot of guys would have sat out. He goes over the middle, makes tough catches, etc. Enough with the Sammy bashing, he is an immense talent, and hopefully he can get the foot right this off season and be ready to a force like we KNOW he can be when healthy next year.

Thanks man.

 

As I've said, I have no issue with folks saying that the investment hasn't paid off due to lack of availability on the field.

 

His production when on the field (when taken in context) cannot possibly be questioned.

[Cripple Creek]

So let me get this straight:

A guy can be termed a bust despite producing over 2,500 yards and 17 TDs in 3 seasons while playing through injuries in an offense that throws the ball less than literally every other offense in the NFL?

That makes absolutely no sense.

He's not a bust by any definition.

In fact, through 2015, he lead the NFL in yards per target since he entered the league.

#contextmatters

Was he worth 2 first round picks? If not, then bust...if not with the Bills but with someone else then still a bust from a Bills draft perspective. It's really simple, you either live up to your draft status or you do not. The question "was he worth it" depends on the numbers he puts up.

[Alphadawg7]

that may be your criteria, don't push it on me. Has he live up to his draft status? No. could he still? Yes, but the window is closing. His current production at the price paid say he was not worth it. You can throw out per snap this, per series that...doesn't matter to me. His overall production will be the determining factor on whether he was a "bust" or not.

 

The only bust here is your posts:

 

He has appeared in 37 career games, and several of those he was not 100% healthy but played through pain and a few he had to exit early. Half of those games he played in he was saddled with those train wreck QB's of either EJ or Orton.

 

2459 yards, 16.1 YPC, 153 receptions, and 17 TDs.

 

How anyone can think that is bust material given he spent half of the games he played in catching passes from either EJ Manuel or Kyle Orton is beyond me. Factor in that is OC for 16 games was that joke Hackett, 18 games were by a run first OC who was fired in week 2 in Roman, and that he played several games hurt and that is actually quite remarkable.

 

In 7 of the final 9 games he played in last year he had at least 80 yards, and including 5 over 100 and 2 over 150 along with 7 TD's. He had a slow start to the year when he was not 100% healthy, and also missed 2 games. But when he was healthy and on the field, his production was in the top 3 of the entire NFL, and that was with a first time starting QB in Taylor that so many of you around here label as "terrible" (i do not share that opinion either).

 

Bust he is NOT, and its not even remotely debatable. He has PROVEN his talent was worth the cost, however, bad luck on injuries (he was NOT injury prone coming into the NFL) has slowed him a bit, but he is far from a bust. The biggest issue with his injuries has been how tough he is and trying to play through them causing some to linger. Hopefully, this offseason puts the foot issue behind him and he can be 100% this time by start of season. No reason to think he can't stay healthy considering he doesn't have a history of injuries prior to this.

Was he worth 2 first round picks? If not, then bust...if not with the Bills but with someone else then still a bust from a Bills draft perspective. It's really simple, you either live up to your draft status or you do not. The question "was he worth it" depends on the numbers he puts up.

 

Yes he is absolutely worth 2 first round picks from a talent perspective. His talent has proven that on the field. You can not predict injuries, especially on a guy who had no injury history. Just like you can not predict whether he will continue to be injured. His talent was worth the cost, period. That is all you can evaluate on right now.

 

Not to mention its not Sammys fault that he spent half of his career games catching passes from losers like EJ and Orton, dealing with three different OC in 3 years, and been on a the top rushing team in the NFL over those 3 years in a run first system.

[thebandit27]

You don't see him duck out of bounds way ahead of defenders so he doesn't get hit? TV announcers notice and comment about it...he never goes and gets all he can.

That's a nebulous and untrue criticism:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=icjA5DfVwE4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d40Ao1qf96g

 

And by the way, Marvin Harrison made a career out of getting down and out of bounds early.

 

Soft is hardly the way to describe a guy that's played through as many injuries as he has.

Was he worth 2 first round picks? If not, then bust...if not with the Bills but with someone else then still a bust from a Bills draft perspective. It's really simple, you either live up to your draft status or you do not. The question "was he worth it" depends on the numbers he puts up.

So neither facts not context matter?

 

Gotcha.

 

He's not a bust.

 

Carson Palmer was a QB picked first overall, yet he never won a Super Bowl...bust?

 

No, because that would be a dumb way to define it.

 

He's producing on par with other #1 WRs when given the opportunity

[Cripple Creek]

The only bust here is your posts:

 

He has appeared in 37 career games, and several of those he was not 100% healthy but played through pain and a few he had to exit early. Half of those games he played in he was saddled with those train wreck QB's of either EJ or Orton.

 

2459 yards, 16.1 YPC, 153 receptions, and 17 TDs.

 

How anyone can think that is bust material given he spent half of the games he played in catching passes from either EJ Manuel or Kyle Orton is beyond me. Factor in that is OC for 16 games was that joke Hackett, 18 games were by a run first OC who was fired in week 2 in Roman, and that he played several games hurt and that is actually quite remarkable.

 

In 7 of the final 9 games he played in last year he had at least 80 yards, and including 5 over 100 and 2 over 150 along with 7 TD's. He had a slow start to the year when he was not 100% healthy, and also missed 2 games. But when he was healthy and on the field, his production was in the top 3 of the entire NFL, and that was with a first time starting QB in Taylor that so many of you around here label as "terrible" (i do not share that opinion either).

 

Bust he is NOT, and its not even remotely debatable. He has PROVEN his talent was worth the cost, however, bad luck on injuries (he was NOT injury prone coming into the NFL) has slowed him a bit, but he is far from a bust. The biggest issue with his injuries has been how tough he is and trying to play through them causing some to linger. Hopefully, this offseason puts the foot issue behind him and he can be 100% this time by start of season. No reason to think he can't stay healthy considering he doesn't have a history of injuries prior to this.

 

Yes he is absolutely worth 2 first round picks from a talent perspective. His talent has proven that on the field. You can not predict injuries, especially on a guy who had no injury history. Just like you can not predict whether he will continue to be injured. His talent was worth the cost, period. That is all you can evaluate on right now.

 

Not to mention its not Sammys fault that he spent half of his career games catching passes from losers like EJ and Orton, dealing with three different OC in 3 years, and been on a the top rushing team in the NFL over those 3 years in a run first system.

 

I apologize for having higher (winning) expectations than you do. If you feel, today, that Sammy Watkins was worth the price paid then we have nothing to talk about. Your mind is made up, mine waits to see results.

[Freddie's Dead]

You don't see him duck out of bounds way ahead of defenders so he doesn't get hit? TV announcers notice and comment about it...he never goes and gets all he can.

2nd and pu$$y against the Fish, two plays before the punt heard round the world.