MAJBobby Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 There really isn't much left to say after this... Yet there is. Standard have to diminish the good because it hurts the bad narrative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 not bad but my premise is that Rex drove last year's draft. I don't have a way to prove it but he is a very will full hands on roster coach and i love that draft. miller might develop, darby is a horrible first pick, o'leary is ST / third string player and the jury is out on cardale. I think Darby's struggles this year more a result of Rex's defense putting more pressure on the secondary also let's not forget he was a 2nd Round pick. Again I was only comparing draft's in terms of percentage of still on roster compare to other teams since being named GM as you seemed to infer that he was below average when in reality he's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Sure look no further than The first page of this thread. And look up some of the the people flaming whaley on their defense of TT I don't see any TT praise on the first page. Chickenshit statements like "the same people saying x said y," is a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jethro_tull Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 On paper, I like Whaley's picks and FA pickups more often than not. But at some point, they need to produce results on the field. He gets one more year, before I start bitching about a replacement. Playoffs or bust next year. And yes, that means our next HC needs to make the playoffs next year as well. There's no excuse, we have a good offense, all we need is a slightly better defense. No playoffs next year means blow it all up. a very reasonable position and probably for the best heading into the next draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I don't see any TT praise on the first page. Chickenshit statements like "the same people saying x said y," is a waste of time. Yeah because their posting history means nothing. Just mine. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jethro_tull Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I think Darby's struggles this year more a result of Rex's defense putting more pressure on the secondary also let's not forget he was a 2nd Round pick. Again I was only comparing draft's in terms of percentage of still on roster compare to other teams since being named GM as you seemed to infer that he was below average when in reality he's not. hard to disagree. most of the blame goes to prior regimes. this next draft will be a good indicator of what he can do on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) Ranking TBD's worst threads, this one is near the top. And that is saying something. On paper, I like Whaley's picks and FA pickups more often than not. But at some point, they need to produce results on the field. He gets one more year, before I start bitching about a replacement. Playoffs or bust next year. And yes, that means our next HC needs to make the playoffs next year as well. There's no excuse, we have a good offense, all we need is a slightly better defense. No playoffs next year means blow it all up. That's all the GM can do. To reverse what Bill Parcells once said, if you buy the best ingredients at the grocery store, but the chef cant cook, it's still going to taste like garbage. Personnel is the one department in this organization that has actually held up their end of the bargain. Edited January 2, 2017 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Yeah because their posting history means nothing. Just mine. Got it. They all matter. However if folks have seen the light on TT, I don't see why they can't go after Whaley. You're making a sweeping call on EVERYONE going after Whaley and it's just not accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 NFL Football... "It's a violent game that I personally don't think humans are supposed to play." 2013, Colin Brown was an Andy Levitre replacement that lasted around 4 games before being benched and released because he was so bad. Sam Young was another wasted roster spot as he came in the game for Brown on a couple of series and allowed a sack and hits so he also was benched and released after 4 games. That year Whaley signed Doug Legursky to be the backup center and because all the other OG backup players were so bad... Legursky became the starting LG for most of the season and needless to say this guy was the worst graded player on the Bills line and didn't return for another year. The Bills were exceedingly lucky that Legursky lasted an entire season because the rest of the backups that year were right off the street. 2014, Signing OG Chris Williams for 5 mill guaranteed to see him play only three games before being released by the team because of a back injury! Kraig Urbik moved to LG and Erik Pears played RG in 2014. Glenn, Urbik, Wood, Pears, Henderson was ranked as the very worst offensive line in the NFL for most of that season! This with basically three rookie QB's on the roster! 2015, Rex Ryan vouches for OG Richie Incognito and the Bills sign him to see a talent that elevates the play of the two players on either side of him. So, after two years the Bills finally replace Levitre with a quality player at LG. It was also Rex Ryan that wanted Tyrod Taylor in Buffalo. The bottom line was that Whaley allowed the team to go into the 2013 season with EJ, Lewis and Tuel and no veteran QB on the roster and no QB coach on the team. The only person these young QB's had to learn the NFL ropes from was Nathaniel Hackett who was an NFL rookie OC himself. After drafting Sammy Watkins, Whaley decides to trade for WR Mike Williams ( for a 6th)and trade away WR Stevie Johnson (for a 4th) because while Johnson didn't always run precise routes he was usually always open. Kyle Orton could have really used a WR that was always open. Sammy in his first season battling injuries all year long was used a lot as a decoy. WR Mike Williams contribution to the team, 8 rec for 142 yards, 1 TD. In 2014 the Bills traded for RB Bryce Brown for a 4th round pick. Browns contribution to the team 2 game starts 36 rushes for 126 yards, 16 receptions for 116 yards. The trade for Jerry Hughes was initiated by the Colts GM who wanted the last first round pick of Bill Polian off the team and Whaley was just incredibly lucky that the Colts called him. Wanna talk incredibly lucky? How about that Whaley offered CJ Spiller a decent offer to stay in Buffalo and like the fool that he is Spiller instead went to New Orleans... thank the good lord! Wanna talk more good luck? Eagles HC Chip Kelly offering to trade LeSean McCoy to Buffalo in the first place. This worked out great because the team has such difficulty in finding star RB talent in the draft. Skipping a lot of other things. The Watkins trade in dealing away three draft picks, two number ones for a WR when the team still didn't have it's franchise QB! If Whaley or his scouts actually knew what they were looking at in regards to college talent the Bills could have stayed at the #9 pick in 2014 and drafted all-pro LBer Anthony Barr, all-pro OT Taylor Lewan, all-pro WR Odel Beckham Jr, all-pro DT Aaron Donald, all-pro OG Zack Martin, all-pro LBer CJ Mosley, all-pro S Haha Clinton-Dix, all-pro CB Jason Verrett and then traded up in the second round for all-pro QB Derek Carr. After the last four seasons of such ineptitude, I have no idea how or why the guy still has a job as an NFL GM. Although, EJ certainly has been happy that Doug Whaley has kept his job all this time. This should be tagged or something and we can keep adding to it. There are literally so many that you forget about little things like Mike Williams or going into the 2nd Marrone training camp with EJ, Thad Lewis, and Jeff Tuel at QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Letting Rex take the first three picks this year was bad and will hurt. Watkins is the most talented player on the team other than maybe McCoy. Stop complaining about him. Ragland may make Maybin look like a good pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tomcat Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I go both ways with Whaley. (not that way lol) A few points in no particular order I think that everyone knew there was no way Aaron Williams wasn't making it thru 16 games. Whaley not getting that position filled is a huge reason we gave up 200 yards on the ground multiple times this year. This is a huge checkmark in the bad column. Shady fell in his lap. They were sitting in Florida on the veranda when the call came in. Whaley didn't have anything to do with anything but saying ok. I don't put much stock in how many players are still on the team. The Pat's have more picks then anyone. They know its a crapshoot for the most part and cut bait all the time. EJ was not his pick in my opinion. He signed off it but Nix even said after the pick he was the one to point the finger at good or bad. I can't believe how horrible EJ looked yesterday. Almost like it was on purpose. I thought he'd be the perfect backup but I'm not in that camp anymore. He needs to go. Whaley is a GREAT pro personnel guy. He understands talent and how it translates to this team. When I was watching Shag this year, It seemed he was the perfect body type for 4-3 DE. With Ragland being a true inside backer I think this team is primed for a bounce back defense. Finally, If a big name coach comes in, don't they want BOTH the GM and Coach job like Belicheck? It puts a coach in a spot when he benches or punishes a player, they go to the GM and a division is created. By not getting rid of Whaley, it limits the attractiveness to the new coach. (don't know why Russ is still connected to this team either-another layer that should be elimiated. Just some random thoughts I've had about the situation. Flame on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Who signed him. Jesus people Want to pin EJ on him, but wont give credit for Hughes Want to scream Byrce Brown for a 4th, wont give him credit for Shady (also essentially part of EJ) Want to put Shaq on him, no credit for the good moves that was Rex Now tell me again there isnt a narrative being pushed End thread In my world, there's a big difference between success based on inbound inquiries and outbound inquiries. Did the Bills pound on the Colts door for Hughes, or were the Colts desperate to unload Hughes? How many backup RBs with a spotty track record get traded for 4th round picks? A big knock against Whaley is not that he's willing to take risks to improve the team, it's that he's too loose with giving up draft picks to get the players he's enamored with, knowing that the draft is mostly a crapshoot. And for the QB search, how many QBs drafted by NE have started in the NFL, after Brady was in place compared to Bills' draftees? How many QB prospects were passed over because EJ just needed more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I posted this elsewhere...Here's a list of our draft picks since Whaley was named GM in May of 2013. In bold are guys on the current 53 man roster, Italics are guys still part of team whether it be on IR or PS etc. Shaq Lawson Reggie Ragland Adolphus Washington Cardale Jones Jonathan Williams Kolby Listenbee Kevon Seymour Ronald Darby John Miller Karlos Williams Tony Steward Nick O'Leary Dezmin Lewis Sammy Watkins Cyrus Kouandjio Preston Brown Ross Cockrell Cyril Richardson Randell Johnson Seantrel Henderson 15/20 = 75% Let's compare that to another GM who earned his position in 2013, Steve Keim of the Arizona Cardinals. Of note he was named GM 5 months before Whaley and named Executive of the Year in 2013 but again only going to compare draft classes since 2014 and who remains on their roster for this comparison. Robert Nkemdiche Brandon Williams Evan Boehm Marqui Christian Cole Toner Harlan Miller D.J. Humphries Markus Golden David Johnson Rodney Gunter Shaquille Riddick J.J. Nelson Gerald Christian Deone Bucannon Troy Niklas Kareem Martin John Brown Logan Thomas Ed Stinson Walt Powell 15/20 = 75% and what about the Green Bay Packers who are well known as a team that builds within? Kenny Clark Jason Spriggs Kyler Fackrell Blake Martinez Deon Lowry Trevor Davis Kyle Murphy Damarious Randall Quinten Rollins Ty Montgomery Jake Ryan Brett Hundley Aaron Ripkowski Christian Ringo Kennard Backman Ha Ha Clinton-Dix Davante Adams Khyri Thornton Richard Rodgers Carl Bradford Corey Linsley Jared Abbrederis Demetri Goodson Jeff Janis 18/24= 75% how about another middling team like the Philly Eagles then? Carson Wentz Isaac Seumalo Wendell Smallwood Halapoulivaati Vaitai Blake Countess Jalen Mills Alex McCalister Joe Walker Nelson Agholor Eric Rowe Jordan Hicks JaCorey Shepherd Randall Evans Marcus Smith Jordan Matthews Josh Huff Jaylen Watkins Taylor Hart Ed Reynolds Beau Allen 13/20 = 65% and lastly one of the top 3 GMs in recent memory; John Schneider and the Seattle Seahawks Germain Ifedi Jarran Reed C.J. Prosise Nick Vannett Rees Odhiambo Quinton Jefferson Alex Collins Joey Hunt Zac Brooks Frank Clark Tyler Lockett Terry Poole Mark Glowinski Tye Smith Obum Gwachum Kristjan Sokoli Ryan Murphy Paul Richardson Justin Britt Cassius Marsh Kevin Norwood Kevin Pierre-Louis Garrett Scott Eric Pinkins Kiero Small 14/25= 56% Is Whaley really doing that bad at drafting when compare him to his counterparts? Thanks and great post! Evidence is troubling to some. In my world, there's a big difference between success based on inbound inquiries and outbound inquiries. Did the Bills pound on the Colts door for Hughes, or were the Colts desperate to unload Hughes? How many backup RBs with a spotty track record get traded for 4th round picks? A big knock against Whaley is not that he's willing to take risks to improve the team, it's that he's too loose with giving up draft picks to get the players he's enamored with, knowing that the draft is mostly a crapshoot. And for the QB search, how many QBs drafted by NE have started in the NFL, after Brady was in place compared to Bills' draftees? How many QB prospects were passed over because EJ just needed more time. You know what's missing from this discussion is that nobody acknowledges the uncertainty with acquiring players. To put it in simpler terms there is a lot of luck, a hell of a lot. I bet a coin flip would do better than alot of GMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 In what universe is drafting a running back in the fifth round who scored nine TD's as a rookie, while averaging over 5 yards a carry, and then releasing him at exactly the right time, a bad move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 In what universe is drafting a running back in the fifth round who scored nine TD's as a rookie, while averaging over 5 yards a carry, and then releasing him at exactly the right time, a bad move? 2BD universe of course Metz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffaloed in Pa Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Although not disturbed by Rex's firing (defense went south and poor game time decisions), I think the problem starts with Whaley. For the year, we've been hit by the spin that were a quality team without discipline. Really, what's so talented about our defense. I don't pretend to be an expert on this or remember all the moves, so please chime in with more. 1) Drafting EJ Manuel 1st and never realizing that he's not a player... (Continuing to fail to realize that EJ has neither escapability, pocket presence, or accuracy) 2) Spending a fortune on Dareus, who barely plays 3) Doubling down on EJ by giving up multiple first round picks for Watkins 4) Getting and then keeping Karlos WIlliams (lost Fred Jackson instead) 1Didn`t draft E.J. remember Buddy ??? 2Injured,will be back. 3 Watkins will heal and with a passing QB will produce 4Fred was TOAST. 5 Shaq will pan out Rex pick 6 Reach for help..low cost 7 Not much too pick from at his time or spot.Oh before you run your mouth about Dak Alot of teams passed on him and we don`t have the offensive talent of Dallas. Keep it real dude. 5) Drafting Shaq with a bum shoulder 6) Percy Harvin not just once, but twice 7) Not prioritizing quarterbacks in draft picks (besides EJ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Trading a 4th round pick for Bryce Brown Having EJ, Thad and Tuel as his QBs Shoving EJ down our throats Trading up for Watkins to justify EJ as a QB Actually, you can give him "credit" for Kevin Kolb too. But all of those -- yes, even EJ -- were defensible at the time. What was never defensible at any time was signing the Dareus extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 And the worst is probably yet to come. Whaley is going to hire the next Bills HC, which should be a terrifying thought. Whaley seems to not get along with HC's , so he will choose the devil he knows rather than what's actually best for the team to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofton80 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 One of my favorites was dicking around with 2 kickers. Apparently, every 2 weeks it was important to have a kick off specialist. Unfortunately, Miami was one of the off weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Trading Sheppard for Hughes Picking InCognito off trash heap Trading Kiko for McCoy Ronald Darby - granted looked alot better before this year Tyrod Taylor Letting Byrd Walk Zach Brown Lorenzo Alexander Dustin Hopkins Yeah of course he doesnt get credit for Tyrod. You have to stay on narrative People really need to think that McCoy trade through. He had one year on his contract at the time of the trade. They rented McCoy for one year, and he certainly gave the Bills their money's worth in 2015. Everything else is the extension (which I still don't like even though he continued to perform at a very high level in 2016), so that's akin to signing a free agent. As far as Incognito: I agree. I mention it because we have these endless debates here on whether a certain player was really "Nix's guy" (EJ) or "Rex's guy" (Richie). They're all Whaley's guys as far as I'm concerned, the good and the bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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