IDBillzFan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 You actually want the answer, or you want to wait for Joe to respond? Well, I've been working on this with him for an hour, so I'd like to see him bring it home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Actually, yes...but by definition. "Murder" is wrong across cultures because it's defined as a killing that's illegal or immoral. What constitutes murder varies from culture to culture, pretty widely. I was wondering when Hammurabi would get dragged in to this. Joe pretty much proved his point with that: morality isn't strictly Abrahamic. Don't know why he was too stupid to bring it up earlier. Probably because anyone with a brain knows that legality does not equal morality. Moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Well, I've been working on this with him for an hour, so I'd like to see him bring it home. Thought so. Probably because anyone with a brain knows that legality does not equal morality. Moron. So what is morality, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 It's larger than human psychology. It's a sociological and cultural construct. And it's what almost all people and cultures believed for almost all of history. That attitude only started to change 200 years ago in Europe and North America, and only really gained traction in the past 70. That's maybe 3% of recorded history. Like I said, outlier. It's a tough concept to articulate. Describe how "murder" isn't "murder?" It's too easy to make a rhetorically circular definition. I had a tough time expressing it as succinctly as I did. You actually want the answer, or you want to wait for Joe to respond? It's biological. Babies are born without the concept of empathy. They only learn it through development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 This may be the most painful thread I've ever read. I need to go lie down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 It's biological. Babies are born without the concept of empathy. They only learn it through development. Prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Thought so. So what is morality, then? A particular system of values and principles of conduct with the distinction between right and wrong. Legality defines what is permissive, not what is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 This may be the most painful thread I've ever read. I need to go lie down Never read the rettata thread, did you? Or the DVD burning thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Prove it. Already done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally%E2%80%93Anne_test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 A particular system of values and principles of conduct with the distinction between right and wrong. Legality defines what is permissive, not what is right. And what defines "right" and "wrong?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 And what defines "right" and "wrong?" Your own personal system of values and principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 And what defines "right" and "wrong?" So far, it looks like the answer is Hammurabi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Already done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally%E2%80%93Anne_test That doesn't prove what you said. In fact, it could prove opposite of what you said - if autistic children lack empathy, it demonstrates a biological basis, rather than developmental. Unless you're going to argue that the causes of autism are strictly behavioral, and not biological. Your own personal system of values and principles. So...morality defines right and wrong, which in turn defines morality? You've made a circular argument that hasn't defined anything. Maybe you'd like to start over, and try a definition of "morality" that's not copied and pasted from the OED web site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 That doesn't prove what you said. In fact, it could prove opposite of what you said - if autistic children lack empathy, it demonstrates a biological basis, rather than developmental. Unless you're going to argue that the causes of autism are strictly behavioral, and not biological. So...morality defines right and wrong, which in turn defines morality? You've made a circular argument that hasn't defined anything. Maybe you'd like to start over, and try a definition of "morality" that's not copied and pasted from the OED web site? It doesn't. I assume you'd be able educate yourself if I pointed you in the right direction. Biologically normal children fail that test before the age of 4. That and developmental processes are at least partially affected by biological ones. It's multifactorial. Do you need a link to lead poisoning too? I defined morality and it's distinction from legality. Your attempts to drag me down your rabbit hole to evade from the fact that they are fundamentally different concepts are futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) Never read the rettata thread, did you? Or the DVD burning thread? My recollection of "retard rettata" conjures more memories of hilarity than pain. Watching a bunch of idiots take to the Socratic method to explore morality with Joe on the other hand... I can't seem to look away though Edited February 15, 2017 by SWATeam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Correct. There is literally NO shame in believing your culture is better than others. My culture gave the world Da Vinci, Chopin, Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson, Beethoven, Brunaleschi. My culture evolved the idea of universal sufferage. My culture ENDED slavery. No shame in trumpeting those virtues. You've just crossed over from being morally superior to culturally superior. How'd that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 It doesn't. I assume you'd be able educate yourself if I pointed you in the right direction. Biologically normal children fail that test before the age of 4. That and developmental processes are at least partially affected by biological ones. It's multifactorial. Do you need a link to lead poisoning too? No. That's what I was getting at: psychology is multifactorial. Which you ignored in your earlier post. I defined morality and it's distinction from legality. Your attempts to drag me down your rabbit hole to evade from the fact that they are fundamentally different concepts are futile. In as much as you defined morality at all (you didn't, you just said "morality is morality") you defined it as "A particular system of values and conduct..." Which 1) was a definition of the word, not the concept, and 2) sounds suspiciously like "laws." Isn't a legal code a "particular system of values and conduct?" Or, to put a finer and more concrete point on it: point me to where Hammurabi's Code does not define values or conduct? And it's not my rabbit hole: you're the one attempting a comparative definition of "morality" and "legality" without a definition of "morality." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) No. That's what I was getting at: psychology is multifactorial. Which you ignored in your earlier post. In as much as you defined morality at all (you didn't, you just said "morality is morality") you defined it as "A particular system of values and conduct..." Which 1) was a definition of the word, not the concept, and 2) sounds suspiciously like "laws." Isn't a legal code a "particular system of values and conduct?" Or, to put a finer and more concrete point on it: point me to where Hammurabi's Code does not define values or conduct? And it's not my rabbit hole: you're the one attempting a comparative definition of "morality" and "legality" without a definition of "morality." I did not. I just showed you that if you are born without the ability to empathize, eventually learning how to is developmental. See my earlier post that says exactly that. You tried to tell me that an inability to empathize is a cultural and social construct. I proved you wrong. Unless you'd like to point out which cultural and social practices lead to the inability for a baby to realize it's not the only person on the Earth while its in the womb? I defined morality and its distinction form legality. Would it help if I took my earlier post and pieced it together for you? "Your own personal system of values and principles of conduct with the distinction between right and wrong." Let me know where Hammurabi's code dictated what was "right" versus "wrong" instead of "allowed" and "not allowed." You conflated morality and legality. They are not the same. Edited February 15, 2017 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Sorry to interrupt............. BREAKING. Andy Puzder To Withdraw His Nomination As Labor Secretary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Never read the rettata thread, did you? Or the DVD burning thread? Thank you!! I was trying to come up with something to cook this weekend I've not done in a while. It's a three day weekend so I'll have plenty of time for some Rettata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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