Dorkington Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 I don't think he would have been all that useful with EJ or Tyrod.... *maybe* Orton, but I don't think our offense was really designed for Stevies routes. Here is a chart comparing the top receivers in the league over the last 9 weeks:http://i0.wp.com/nysportsbiz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/WR-EXCEL-SHEET.png?resize=768%2C223His performance stands right there with anyone despite less opportunities. Tasker has an agenda that Jauronimo has pretty much destroyed him for. He says lots of nothing and think that the "lots" makes it substance. For those that didn't click the link... Thing that stands out to me, Sammy has the second highest catch %, and the highest yards per reception. But, according to our resident expert, Sammy is a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB Bills Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Stevie is a unique talent in that those talents aren't quite measurable. He's not especially fast, strong or tall. So of course you're going to have some people saying he's no good because he doesn't fit into one of those three categories. The guy put up three straight 1,000 yard seasons with fitzpicksix as his QB. And then they went from a crap QB to one that was ten times worse with ej. I'd love to see what he could do on this team as a slot receicer, assuming they open up the playbook for Tyrod. And the Watkins trade was a good one in retrospect. Not necessarily because of the value nor the selection (I would have rather taken Mack). But simply because Whaley and co were going to blow the later pick by taking Ebron instead of Beckham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMan Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 SJ was a liability. Bad penalties, bad drops. Move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Stevie Johnson: 10 games, 45 Rec, 497 Yds, 3 TDs, 1 Fum Robert Woods: 14 games, 47 Rec, 552 Yds, 3 TDs, 2 Fum I'm not sure how anyone can say that the first guy listed above sucks and wasn't worth keeping, but the second one deserves to be our #2 WR. Cap # 1st of all. SD throws the football a lot more. IN SF which happened to be the same OC he had 35 catches in 13 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Alright, so I wanted to take a look at just how much of a bust Sammy Watkins is, since that seems to be the going opinion (or you know, one person yelling loudly and repeatedly). First off lets set this up: Bills Team Ranks: Passing Attempts: 31st Passing Completions: 30th Passing Yards: 28th Net Yards/Attempt: 13th We're clearly a run first offense, but when we pass, we're pretty efficient as a whole. I took the top 50 players as far as catches, here are Sammy's ranks in various categories: Receptions: 50th Targets 45th Catch %: 32nd Yards/Reception: 1st Yards/Game: 10th Ok, so a bit of a mix when it comes to totals. I can see why people would be disappointed looking at things in a vacuum. But what about his value relative to our offensive mix? Is he held back by a run first offense? How important is Sammy to our passing attack? Stats relative to totals Pass Target Percentage: 21st Pass Yards Percentage: 10th Pass TD Percentage: 6th What does this tell me overall? He's a top 10 talent, and extremely efficient. Oh, and he's tied for 2nd youngest at 22 years of age. I can understand being disappointed in his *totals*, but its pretty clear by either watching the game, or examining the numbers, that he's a very large/important part of our offensive attack. Edited July 13, 2016 by Dorkington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Groin injuries took away his explosive change of direction which was his best attribute, I think it was a decent trade if you don't think SJ was going to return to form - I'm always of a mixed mind when players continue playing injured, I have to wonder how much additional damage SJ did to himself hobbling around the field in a brave but futile attempt to keep the Bills going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyHorseAteTheKid Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 I hoped he would go on to have a great career, but that didn't happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr1 Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 the guy from the Toyota commercial > Stevie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Stevie Johnson: 10 games, 45 Rec, 497 Yds, 3 TDs, 1 Fum Robert Woods: 14 games, 47 Rec, 552 Yds, 3 TDs, 2 Fum I'm not sure how anyone can say that the first guy listed above sucks and wasn't worth keeping, but the second one deserves to be our #2 WR. BarleyNY, it's been well established that Woods played hurt the entire year, in a "run first" offense with a first year starting QB. Oh, and there's that little thing about Stevie playing with an All-Pro at QB. In other words, I don't think this sort of a comparison carries much weight in the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster Guy Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Im not a fan of trading up for a WR, no matter how good Watkins becomes. I wont support the move. Trading Stevie however was a good move. Time to move on. The Bills still do things that I dont understand, trading up for WRs and spending big assets on RBs. You mean like how Atlanta traded a 2nd, 4th and next years 1st and 4th to Cleveland for Julio Jones and the Browns have ZERO players left on their team from that trade and Atlanta has an elite receiver that singlehandedly got them in the playoffs. We paid less than that for the Sammy and now we have an elite, game changer out there that gets us wins. Its ridiculous to say trading up for a WR is an enequivocal mistake. Depends on what you give up, what you get, what your needs are, draft board position--a million factors. Edited July 13, 2016 by Webster Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 You mean like how Atlanta traded a 2nd, 4th and next years 1st and 4th to Cleveland for Julio Jones and the Browns have ZERO players left on their team from that trade and Atlanta has an elite receiver that singlehandedly got them in the playoffs. We paid less than that for the Sammy and now we have an elite, game changer out there that gets us wins. Its ridiculous to say trading up for a WR is an enequivocal mistake. Depends on what you give up, what you get, what your needs are, draft board position--a million factors. You wont change my opinion. I would never trade up for a WR. Sit where you are and take one. Pretty much the only position I would trade up for is a QB, but even then its unrealistic. Not many teams in position to draft an elite QB are going to pass. Basically I probably never trade up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 BarleyNY, it's been well established that Woods played hurt the entire year, in a "run first" offense with a first year starting QB. Oh, and there's that little thing about Stevie playing with an All-Pro at QB. In other words, I don't think this sort of a comparison carries much weight in the discussion. I totally disagree. SJ got 8 starts and played in 10 games with 593 offensive snaps. Woods got 9 starts and played in 14 games with 820 offensive snaps. Those extra snaps even up opportunities pretty well even with the run-first offense excuse. They look very comparable in my book for such a huge discrepancy in opinion. Beyond that, it seems dumb to think SJ couldn't help this team (regardless of whether or not he's better than Woods) since he'd easily be better than every other WR on the roster, Watkins obviously excepted. Honestly, you're comfortable with what our WR corps looks like now? How about when Watkins and/or Woods miss time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) I don't think he would have been all that useful with EJ or Tyrod.... *maybe* Orton, but I don't think our offense was really designed for Stevies routes. For those that didn't click the link... Thing that stands out to me, Sammy has the second highest catch %, and the highest yards per reception. But, according to our resident expert, Sammy is a bust. That same link has Stevie Johnson rated much higher than Robert Woods. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr And, again, I'm not even arguing that I think SJ is better than EW. Just that it seems dumb to say there's a huge difference and that SJ wouldn't be a big help to the Bills. Edited July 13, 2016 by BarleyNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 I totally disagree. SJ got 8 starts and played in 10 games with 593 offensive snaps. Woods got 9 starts and played in 14 games with 820 offensive snaps. Those extra snaps even up opportunities pretty well even with the run-first offense excuse. They look very comparable in my book for such a huge discrepancy in opinion. Beyond that, it seems dumb to think SJ couldn't help this team (regardless of whether or not he's better than Woods) since he'd easily be better than every other WR on the roster, Watkins obviously excepted. Honestly, you're comfortable with what our WR corps looks like now? How about when Watkins and/or Woods miss time? We'll just agree to disagree; I think Stevie was always overrated and Woods is underrated. And yes, I think that among the competitors at training camp we'll have a couple of guys emerge who can contribute. That same link has Stevie Johnson rated much higher than Robert Woods. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr And, again, I'm not even arguing that I think SJ is better than EW. Just that it seems dumb to say there's a huge difference and that SJ wouldn't be a big help to the Bills. Again -- Woods was injured for the entire year and gutted it out. Ask 32 GMs right now if they'd rather have Stevie Johnson or Robert Woods as their #2 WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 He's been a non-factor in the league for 3 seasons. Always seems to be hurt. Got rid of his contract too. Haven't thought about him for ages. Who was that poster who hated Stevie with a passion and had a SJ13 crusade? Anyone recall? Curitiba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 You wont change my opinion. I would never trade up for a WR. Sit where you are and take one. Pretty much the only position I would trade up for is a QB, but even then its unrealistic. Not many teams in position to draft an elite QB are going to pass. Basically I probably never trade up. I don't think it's about wanting to change your opinion. It's about how wrong your opinion is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 You wont change my opinion. I would never trade up for a WR. Sit where you are and take one. Pretty much the only position I would trade up for is a QB, but even then its unrealistic. Not many teams in position to draft an elite QB are going to pass. Basically I probably never trade up. But put yourself in a mind-set of someone who isn't so wedded to a position of not trading up and ask yourself whether you can see a logic in the trade. That is what we should all be trying to do. Not saying "what would I do?" but ask "is there some evidence of a reasonable logic?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 I think that Stevie is a better player than Robert Woods. He would have been a great #2 (assuming that is a role that he was willing to accept). The Bills seem pretty intent on getting younger at the WR position. How many times, this offseason, has one of us suggested Anquan Boldin (or someone like him)? I still think that they need a #2 but I am not sure Stevie would have readily accepted it. I voted "no" and "yes" above. It doesn't have to be Stevie to me (even though I like him) it has to be him or someone like hm. They still haven't added that guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 We'll just agree to disagree; I think Stevie was always overrated and Woods is underrated. And yes, I think that among the competitors at training camp we'll have a couple of guys emerge who can contribute. Again -- Woods was injured for the entire year and gutted it out. Ask 32 GMs right now if they'd rather have Stevie Johnson or Robert Woods as their #2 WR. You seem to be changing my arguement substantially. Please stick to what I said. I'm not arguing who's better, just that there isn't a huge difference between the two and that SJ could help the Bills. Respond to that. The "played injured" card is very weak sauce. Wow, you know what a player on your team went through. How about SJ? Did you look to see if he played hurt? Every player has to suit up with injury of some kind during the season. Woods did. Johnson did. It's part of the game. Had Woods played substantially below what he previously did, then maybe injury could be a big consideration. But that wasn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 I think that Stevie is a better player than Robert Woods. He would have been a great #2 (assuming that is a role that he was willing to accept). The Bills seem pretty intent on getting younger at the WR position. How many times, this offseason, has one of us suggested Anquan Boldin (or someone like him)? I still think that they need a #2 but I am not sure Stevie would have readily accepted it. I voted "no" and "yes" above. It doesn't have to be Stevie to me (even though I like him) it has to be him or someone like hm. They still haven't added that guy. And I am not sure Stevie's skillset really fits Roman.... but he is more talented than Robert Woods I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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