Conservatism's Successes

[TH3]

If you'd like to start a new thread, I'll gladly engage you.

As long as this board bases liberalism - what has "conservatism" brought us since the Reagan revolution?

• Cut taxes for high earners
  
• Lowered union power
  
• NAFTA
  
• Fought SSM
  
• Unfunded wars in the ME
  
• Voter ID laws
  
• Gun rights
  
• Citizens United
  
• Fought environmental conservatism
  
• Lower regulation for the financial industry
  

We essentially live in an era of conservative fiscal policies right now - low taxes, deregulation. free trade. Federal budget not balanced and the middle class going nowhere.

Perhaps the posters who want to vote out dissent can point us to some conservative wins and policies that have resulted in benefits for the middle class or financial gains for the country,

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

If you'd like to start a new thread, I'll gladly engage you.

As long as this board bases liberalism - what has "conservatism" brought us since the Reagan revolution?

... snip...

 

We essentially live in an era of conservative fiscal policies right now - low taxes, deregulation. free trade. Federal budget not balanced and the middle class going nowhere.

Perhaps the posters who want to vote out dissent can point us to some conservative wins and policies that have resulted in benefits for the middle class or financial gains for the country,

 

I'll start off by once again pointing out that calls for the banning of a particular poster have nothing at all to do with his political positions. You'll note that no other poster is receiving such calls. The reason that a ban has been brought up is because he sets out to intentionally downgrade all threads, and derail them. As often as I and others have disagreed with, say, birddog or yourself, no one has ever called for their posting privileges to be removed. Why is that, do you think?

 

Now, onto the purpose of this thread:

 

The country has been drifting to the left since it's inception, and the further to the left it has drifted, the worse our economy has become, and the weaker our moral standards have become. Government programs, failed or otherwise, become the legacy of their legislators, and are nearly never scrapped. Government spending increases every year, as does our debt.

 

"Cut taxes for high earners"

 

Taxes on all earners should be cut. An individual's success does not somehow entitle the government to a higher percentage of their wage. The insistence that it does is immoral.

 

"Lowered union power"

 

I can only assume you're speaking to removal of compulsory membership in a work place, and mandatory dues for non-members in a workplace. This is a good thing as it empowers individual workers.

 

"NAFTA"

 

The overwhelming majority of American citizens benefit from NAFTA. It's also important to point out that NAFTA was the work of two subsequent administrations, one Republican and one Democratic.

 

"Fought SSM"

 

The acknowledgement that Social Security and Medicare are broken and unsustainable is central to either fixing them, or scrapping them in favor of a plan that is workable and sustainable. Anything else is simply jamming your head into the sand and ignoring reality.

 

"Unfunded wars in the ME"

 

Is this a critique of our economic system or of the war itself? Our government is always taking unfunded action. We don't even have a budget process anymore. The reality is that sometimes a nation has to go to war. We (the larger we, not you and I) may disagree over the necessity of the war, but the reality is that as a spending issue, it will be accounted for the same way everything is accounted for within our government.

 

"Voter ID laws"

 

The franchise is an exclusive privilege. I believe it to be very reasonable that individuals should have to prove that they are actually supposed to be permitted to participate in American democracy, before we allow them to participate. If the vote is sacred, it should be treated as such.

 

"Gun rights"

 

Gun ownership is guaranteed to us by the Constitution, and is a cornerstone of free society, which has only existed in the whole history of the world which was prior dominated by Totalitarianism, for 240 years. Conservatives are on the right side of this issue.

 

"Citizens United"

 

Again, free speech is guaranteed to us by the Constitution, and political speech is the most important type of speech there is. I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

 

Money absolutely is speech as long as different mediums for speech have different costs associated with them. One person's inability to afford a particular medium of speech does not somehow magically invalidate another individual's explicit right to use that medium himself.

 

This is absolutely problematic, but it is far more problematic to have a system in which the government is empowered to restrict political speech, which is the most important type of free speech there is.

 

The only way to prevent this sort of spending in politics is to limit the scope of government, such that there is no influence to purchase.

 

You'll note that limiting the scope of government is another thing that conservatives are right about.

 

"Fought environmental conservatism"

 

Do you mean "fought against the decimation of the domestic and global economy by religious zealots"?

 

"Lower regulation for the financial industry"

 

Fought against ham handed and poor regulation. Removing bad regulations is not synonymous with "lowering regulations".

[B-Man]

Well TYTT has responded fully and accurately to all of Baskin's misconceptions.

 

I just want to reiterate one of his main points.

 

The only way to prevent this sort of spending in politics is to limit the scope of government, such that there is no influence to purchase.

 

 

 

Without the belief in an ever-expanding state, there is no Left.

 

Without a belief in limited government, there is no conservatism. (and yes, I am aware of the poor job some 'conservatives' have done with this.)

 

Moreover, this difference is one that all people should comprehend in order to know whether they are on the right or the left.

 

The Left believes that the state should be the most powerful force in society. It should be in control of educating every child; it should provide all the health care for all its citizens; and it should supervise just about all other areas of society. There should be no competing power. As to the all-important question of how much government is too much government, I have never encountered a person of the Left who had an answer to that question.

Conservatives believe that the individual, not government, is the essential component of a good society. The government’s role in society should be limited to absolute necessities such as national defense and the resource of last resort to help citizens who cannot be helped by other citizens, private organizations, or charities.

Conservatives understand that as governments grow in size and power, the following will inevitably — yes, inevitably — happen:

1. There will be ever-increasing amounts of corruption. Power and money breed corruption. People in government will sell government influence for personal gain. This is as true for America as it is for Africa and Latin America, where government corruption is the single biggest factor holding nations back from materially progressing.

2. Individual liberty (outside of sexual behavior and abortion) will decline. Liberty is less important to the Left than to the Right. This is neither an opinion nor a criticism. It is simple logic. The more control the government has over people’s lives, the less liberty people have.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

Finally, the moral impact of big government on its citizens is awful. Not only do people stop taking care of others — after all, they know the government will do that — they stop taking care of themselves as well. And the more people come to rely on government, the more they develop a sense of entitlement, which then leads to a nation of ingrates.

.

[Tiberius]

I'll start off by once again pointing out that calls for the banning of a particular poster have nothing at all to do with his political positions. You'll note that no other poster is receiving such calls. The reason that a ban has been brought up is because he sets out to intentionally downgrade all threads, and derail them. As often as I and others have disagreed with, say, birddog or yourself, no one has ever called for their posting privileges to be removed. Why is that, do you think?

s".

It's because I fight back more forcefully and I post more than the other liberals here. And wouldn't you be guilty of "derailing" a thread here? You could have posted the above quote in my inquisition thread

[3rdnlng]

It's because I fight back more forcefully and I post more than the other liberals here. And wouldn't you be guilty of "derailing" a thread here? You could have posted the above quote in my inquisition thread

Tell yourself that if you want, but you are already trying to derail this thread with your special brand of ignorance.

[Tiberius]

Tell yourself that if you want, but you are already trying to derail this thread with your special brand of ignorance.

By replying to what he wrote or just me being me?

[TH3]

I'll start off by once again pointing out that calls for the banning of a particular poster have nothing at all to do with his political positions. You'll note that no other poster is receiving such calls. The reason that a ban has been brought up is because he sets out to intentionally downgrade all threads, and derail them. As often as I and others have disagreed with, say, birddog or yourself, no one has ever called for their posting privileges to be removed. Why is that, do you think?

 

Now, onto the purpose of this thread:

 

The country has been drifting to the left since it's inception, and the further to the left it has drifted, the worse our economy has become, and the weaker our moral standards have become. Government programs, failed or otherwise, become the legacy of their legislators, and are nearly never scrapped. Government spending increases every year, as does our debt.

 

"Cut taxes for high earners"

 

Taxes on all earners should be cut. An individual's success does not somehow entitle the government to a higher percentage of their wage. The insistence that it does is immoral.

 

"Lowered union power"

 

I can only assume you're speaking to removal of compulsory membership in a work place, and mandatory dues for non-members in a workplace. This is a good thing as it empowers individual workers.

 

"NAFTA"

 

The overwhelming majority of American citizens benefit from NAFTA. It's also important to point out that NAFTA was the work of two subsequent administrations, one Republican and one Democratic.

 

"Fought SSM"

 

The acknowledgement that Social Security and Medicare are broken and unsustainable is central to either fixing them, or scrapping them in favor of a plan that is workable and sustainable. Anything else is simply jamming your head into the sand and ignoring reality.

 

"Unfunded wars in the ME"

 

Is this a critique of our economic system or of the war itself? Our government is always taking unfunded action. We don't even have a budget process anymore. The reality is that sometimes a nation has to go to war. We (the larger we, not you and I) may disagree over the necessity of the war, but the reality is that as a spending issue, it will be accounted for the same way everything is accounted for within our government.

 

"Voter ID laws"

 

The franchise is an exclusive privilege. I believe it to be very reasonable that individuals should have to prove that they are actually supposed to be permitted to participate in American democracy, before we allow them to participate. If the vote is sacred, it should be treated as such.

 

"Gun rights"

 

Gun ownership is guaranteed to us by the Constitution, and is a cornerstone of free society, which has only existed in the whole history of the world which was prior dominated by Totalitarianism, for 240 years. Conservatives are on the right side of this issue.

 

"Citizens United"

 

Again, free speech is guaranteed to us by the Constitution, and political speech is the most important type of speech there is. I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

 

Money absolutely is speech as long as different mediums for speech have different costs associated with them. One person's inability to afford a particular medium of speech does not somehow magically invalidate another individual's explicit right to use that medium himself.

 

This is absolutely problematic, but it is far more problematic to have a system in which the government is empowered to restrict political speech, which is the most important type of free speech there is.

 

The only way to prevent this sort of spending in politics is to limit the scope of government, such that there is no influence to purchase.

 

You'll note that limiting the scope of government is another thing that conservatives are right about.

 

"Fought environmental conservatism"

 

Do you mean "fought against the decimation of the domestic and global economy by religious zealots"?

 

"Lower regulation for the financial industry"

 

Fought against ham handed and poor regulation. Removing bad regulations is not synonymous with "lowering regulations".

 

 

Ok - Where are the metrics that the middle class is better off after all this? I base the success of a country on how its middle class is doing - and for that - they have stalled/slid backwards since Reagan.

 

The fight against same sex marriage/deregulation/lowering taxes for the well off/fighting unfunded wars/citizens united/checking ID at the voting booth....has resulted in .....what? What metric is better?

[FireChan]

By replying to what he wrote or just me being me?

 

TYTT responded to Baskin about the topic at hand as well, you dolt.

 

You come screaming in ignoring the OP.

[TakeYouToTasker]

TYTT responded to Baskin about the topic at hand as well, you dolt.

 

You come screaming in ignoring the OP.

You'll note that baskin also mentioned the banning of a certain poster in his OP.

 

"Perhaps the posters who want to vote out dissent"

[Tiberius]

TYTT responded to Baskin about the topic at hand as well, you dolt.

 

You come screaming in ignoring the OP.

Before that he addressed another issue. He's a hypocrite

[FireChan]

You'll note that baskin also mentioned the banning of a certain poster in his OP.

 

"Perhaps the posters who want to vote out dissent"

I skimmed. Whoops.

Before that he addressed another issue. He's a hypocrite

 

If I ask nicely for you to stop, will you?

 

Compare the substance of your posts to Tasker's and honestly tell me you're contributing to this thread as much as him.

Edited April 14, 2016 by FireChan

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

 

Ok - Where are the metrics that the middle class is better off after all this? I base the success of a country on how its middle class is doing - and for that - they have stalled/slid backwards since Reagan.

 

The fight against same sex marriage/deregulation/lowering taxes for the well off/fighting unfunded wars/citizens united/checking ID at the voting booth....has resulted in .....what? What metric is better?

I see you're shifting the goal posts, making bare assertions, and offering post hoc fallacies.

 

The middle class in this country has already been decimated. The people you now refer to as middle class are actually working class.

 

If you want to reflect on why this is, then I suggest you start by examining our economic system, and then move on to our confiscatory tax system.

 

And now, using your own standard, please show metrics demonstrating a causal relationship between all of the things you've listed and a worsening middle/working class.

Edited April 14, 2016 by TakeYouToTasker

[Deranged Rhino]

It's because I fight back more forcefully and I post more than the other liberals here.

 

False and false.

[Magox]

 

 

is? I base the success of a country on how its middle class is doing - and for that - they have stalled/slid backwards since Reagan.

 

 

 

Yes, the Carter administration was the peak of the middle class.

 

Good times.

[unbillievable]

The easiest way to lower the crime rate is to stop reporting crimes to the police.

[Keukasmallies]

By replying to what he wrote or just me being me?

 

Yes

[ExiledInIllinois]

From the dark, dank minds of the delusional do-nothing's:

 

"The country has been drifting to the left since it's inception, and the further to the left it has drifted, the worse our economy has become, and the weaker our moral standards have become."

 

Let's break this down a little:

 

"...drifting to the left since it's INCEPTION..."

 

The 1920's is calling and has something to say.

 

Then there is this beauty:

 

"...and the weaker our moral standards have become."

 

The pre-emancipation days are calling and has something to say.

 

Yes, the Carter administration was the peak of the middle class.

 

Good times.

You have to look @ other major factors. Like generational groups. The late 1970's was right before the early Boomers hit their prime earning years. Reagan, to his credit, in the right place @ the right time and he seized upon it.

[B-Large]

Ok - Where are the metrics that the middle class is better off after all this? I base the success of a country on how its middle class is doing - and for that - they have stalled/slid backwards since Reagan.

 

The fight against same sex marriage/deregulation/lowering taxes for the well off/fighting unfunded wars/citizens united/checking ID at the voting booth....has resulted in .....what? What metric is better?

 

Mostly what I see are middle class people making poor decisions. Like 2008 never happened, I see middle class people in bidding situations for top of the market real estate against here in Denver. I see people who could have easily purchased a vehicle outright taking 60 month leases on expensive vehicles. I see middle class people sending their kids to private schools when there is a public school next to their home. I see middle class families hiring a nanny and housekeeper when they have no business doing so, because their friend are or have been duped into thinking they should. I see Zililly or other Amazon purchases piled in their foyer (of their 600-700 heavily financed home) that appears to be filling this empty void in their material lives. I see them buying 4-5 coffees each day. I see them eating out almost daily for every meal, or using expensive delivery services instead of time managing and grocery shopping. I see watched, rings, tailored clothing, the newest phone, iPad, Apple Watch, etc...

 

And I wonder. Is this middle class sadness story complete self inflicted BS?

[ExiledInIllinois]

You know why this country "moves left?" Because the Age of Enlightement was a leftist, progressive experiment. It seemed to have stuck rather nicely...

 

...Nothing stays static... Change is everwhere. Progressive represents change. Conservatism is stagnant. I am not saying change for the sake of change... That's where progressivism runs off the rails. When progressivism start running to fast, cobsetvatism is a nice brake. Since the inceptiob of this country, the progressive train in running and it should never be stopped totally.

 

Conservatism, a nice safety brake.

[GG]

Mostly what I see are middle class people making poor decisions. Like 2008 never happened, I see middle class people in bidding situations for top of the market real estate against here in Denver. I see people who could have easily purchased a vehicle outright taking 60 month leases on expensive vehicles. I see middle class people sending their kids to private schools when there is a public school next to their home. I see middle class families hiring a nanny and housekeeper when they have no business doing so, because their friend are or have been duped into thinking they should. I see Zililly or other Amazon purchases piled in their foyer (of their 600-700 heavily financed home) that appears to be filling this empty void in their material lives. I see them buying 4-5 coffees each day. I see them eating out almost daily for every meal, or using expensive delivery services instead of time managing and grocery shopping. I see watched, rings, tailored clothing, the newest phone, iPad, Apple Watch, etc...

 

And I wonder. Is this middle class sadness story complete self inflicted BS?

Good luck with that reason on the campaign trail. It's never a good thing to blame the public even though they contribute to the problem. it's rarely the fault of just the government or the companies, but people don't like hearing that they're part of the issue.

 

People usually don't really know what they want. But they're very good in knowing what they don't want, and the finalists in this election are tapping into that vein. That's why there's so much negativity being thrown around

 

And as I said before, the middle class will be much worse off with the policies that Bernie and Trump are tossing out there. They'll definitely get creamed if Bernie gets everything he wants.

[4merper4mer]

If this country started out as socialist/commie like many seem to want, how would it look today, 200+ years out?

 

To have claims that "conservatism" has hurt the middle class is a joke. The middle class barely exited before capitalism. If we started with the system that so many want to move toward, there would be nothing to whine about because we'd all be destitute and/or in servitude.

[IDBillzFan]

I see you're shifting the goal posts, making bare assertions, and offering post hoc fallacies.

 

Which is why responding to his requests are useless. He has no intention of being educated or swayed. He intends, as most die-hard SoProgs often do, to make noise, rattle cages, question results, and then piss himself as he moves the goal posts when someone provides a thoughtful response.

 

Much like gatorman, if your'e not telling him something he already believes, you are unequivocally wrong.