FireChan Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) I'd agree with you if it wasn't part of a plan laid out last year by Whaley and company. They spent big last year to reload the offense which needed it. In so doing, they were aware (and planned accordingly) that it would limit their ability to do anything but retain their own guys (Glenn, Gilmore, Dareus, Bradham at the time) this off season. The Pegulas brought a willingness to spend and a seemingly bottomless pit of dough, but with the NFL having a cap Whaley and JO had to decide how best to use their new funds. Some may disagree that spending to bring in Richie, Clay, Harvin, Taylor, and then on McCoy through trade was a good idea but I can't. Clay, McCoy, and (hopefully) Taylor will be three guys who will form the core of the team moving forward (all 27 or under) along with Watkins, Glenn, Dareus, and (hopefully) Gilmore on the defensive side. Hopefully #19 in the draft will become a core player as well (and Whaley needs him to be). That's a really solid core to build around. It requires trimming some fat from previous regimes and is most assuredly a two off season process (this being year 2), but I don't see how rational people could look at that plan and think it's a disaster. Perfect? No. But the plan being executed (which again, we were told about for the past 12 months and counting) is making this team better in the short term and long term (imo). Your making the argument that by virtue of there being a "plan," it is a good one. I disagree. Mostly because the plan didn't work, and they are, at best, in contingency mode. A two offseason process was never indicated prior to 2015. You are changing the narrative before our eyes. We went all in, win now in 2015, and now we're overhauling and re-tooling in a two year process. To say it's a disaster and the team is set back a decade is hyperbole, sure. To say the plan failed and failed miserably in 2015 is not. I don't disagree that we have a solid core still. I do disagree that we're better in the short term for it. How can we be when we are losing role players left and right? We are not better in 2016 than we were in 15. To me, that is the definition of being worse in the short term. Which Whaley seems pretty adept at finding wouldnt u say? I wouldn't. All of Whaley's LB's suck. Edited March 11, 2016 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) Whaley thinks very highly of Valles for whatever that's worth. I know. I know nothing of him though. Your making the argument that by virtue of there being a "plan," it is a good one. I disagree. Mostly because the plan didn't work, and they are, at best, in contingency mode. A two offseason process was never indicated prior to 2015. You are changing the narrative before our eyes. We went all in, win now in 2015, and now we're overhauling and re-tooling in a two year process. To say it's a disaster and the team is set back a decade is hyperbole, sure. To say the plan failed and failed miserably in 2015 is not. I don't disagree that we have a solid core still. I do disagree that we're better in the short term for it. How can we be when we are losing role players left and right? We are not better in 2016 than we were in 15. To me, that is the definition of being worse in the short term. I wouldn't. All of Whaley's LB's suck. Brown has taken a beating. But do admit i think he will come around this year. can't think of any others for some reason .. Edited March 11, 2016 by 3rdand12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I know. I know nothing of him though. Brown has taken a beating. But do admit i think he will come around this year. can't think of any others for some reason though.. Valles was seen as a guy that came out of Virginia a year (maybe even two) too early. Not refined at all, but an outstanding athlete. Very high upside guy, but it would surprise me if he were a realistic starting option in 2016. He could, however, be a contributor as a backup edge defender if indeed he's learned to improve his technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Valles was seen as a guy that came out of Virginia a year (maybe even two) too early. Not refined at all, but an outstanding athlete. Very high upside guy, but it would surprise me if he were a realistic starting option in 2016. He could, however, be a contributor as a backup edge defender if indeed he's learned to improve his technique. Thank you good sir !! so we still need an End i think. Wynn is healed up as i Carrington i hope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Thank you good sir !! so we still need an End i think. Wynn is healed up as i Carrington i hope? I liked Wynn in 2014. At the very least a good rotational DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Two additional picks in the draft just helped our chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I liked Wynn in 2014. At the very least a good rotational DE. Me too! key word being rotational. and we know how Rex struggles with substitutions ha HA!! Two additional picks in the draft just helped our chances. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Me too! key word being rotational. and we know how Rex struggles with substitutions ha HA!! ? http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/185385-compensatory-picks-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3893255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBillsBlues Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Valles was seen as a guy that came out of Virginia a year (maybe even two) too early. Not refined at all, but an outstanding athlete. Very high upside guy, but it would surprise me if he were a realistic starting option in 2016. He could, however, be a contributor as a backup edge defender if indeed he's learned to improve his technique. Let's hope that's the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/185385-compensatory-picks-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3893255 oh boy !! Thanks. I enjoy good news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Your making the argument that by virtue of there being a "plan," it is a good one. I disagree. Mostly because the plan didn't work, and they are, at best, in contingency mode. A two offseason process was never indicated prior to 2015. You are changing the narrative before our eyes. We went all in, win now in 2015, and now we're overhauling and re-tooling in a two year process. To say it's a disaster and the team is set back a decade is hyperbole, sure. To say the plan failed and failed miserably in 2015 is not. I don't disagree that we have a solid core still. I do disagree that we're better in the short term for it. How can we be when we are losing role players left and right? We are not better in 2016 than we were in 15. To me, that is the definition of being worse in the short term. The bolded is incorrect. As last off season was unfolding Whaley made it very clear what the plan was: reload the offense in 2015, resign our own in 2016. That's not changing the narrative, that's listening to it. There are plenty of sources that back this up. I'm not saying just because there's a plan it's good, I'm saying the plan is good. The plan was to rebuild an offense which had been woeful while leaving enough room cap wise to resign what Whaley believes to be the core of the team moving forward. They ABSOLUTELY expected / wanted to make the playoffs last year and were expecting Rex to maintain the defense at the very least while the offense gelled. The later didn't happen -- which falls on Rex more than it does on Whaley. Whaley's vision with the roster is sound. The talent on the roster has improved each year he's been in charge, it's hard to argue otherwise. I would quibble with the idea that we're losing "role players left and right" -- by definition role players can be found anywhere (on the team already, bargain bin UFAs, and of course the draft). I like Leo and Bradham more than most but their replacements are on the roster or will be found early in the draft. Ditto with Mario who, I think you would agree, while talented didn't make the team better in 2015. 2015 was a disappointment, but that doesn't mean the overall vision for where the team is going is flawed. Right now they've locked up (or are in the process of locking up) the core talent on the team with plenty of room to finish the job (and add pieces) next off season. Judging the roster before UFA or the draft has concluded is kind of stacking the deck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I do. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I don't see any reason why the roster can't be better. Mario had 3 good years in Buffalo prior to last year's dud of a 5 sack season. He simply does not fit into the defensive scheme that the Bills will be running now. Bradham hasn't started a whole season in 4 years. He can be replaced with what's already on the roster, free agency or even the draft. I like the addition of Boykin and Little. I'm pretty sure that they'll contribute more than Harvin did in his whole 5 games of service. They're both big guys that will help draw some of the coverage off of Watkins. Boykin was catching passes from Taylor in college to boot. I'm not sure why, year after year, that fans believe that the team can keep everyone that they had in the year before, grab 6 guys in free agency and then draft another 6-7 guys beyond that. It's fodder to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 I do. Thanks. Me too. Tyrod/McCoy/Sammy/AW all should have better seasons. The "realists" are coming on strong tho ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) The bolded is incorrect. As last off season was unfolding Whaley made it very clear what the plan was: reload the offense in 2015, resign our own in 2016. That's not changing the narrative, that's listening to it. There are plenty of sources that back this up. I'm not saying just because there's a plan it's good, I'm saying the plan is good. The plan was to rebuild an offense which had been woeful while leaving enough room cap wise to resign what Whaley believes to be the core of the team moving forward. They ABSOLUTELY expected / wanted to make the playoffs last year and were expecting Rex to maintain the defense at the very least while the offense gelled. The later didn't happen -- which falls on Rex more than it does on Whaley. Whaley's vision with the roster is sound. The talent on the roster has improved each year he's been in charge, it's hard to argue otherwise. I would quibble with the idea that we're losing "role players left and right" -- by definition role players can be found anywhere (on the team already, bargain bin UFAs, and of course the draft). I like Leo and Bradham more than most but their replacements are on the roster or will be found early in the draft. Ditto with Mario who, I think you would agree, while talented didn't make the team better in 2015. 2015 was a disappointment, but that doesn't mean the overall vision for where the team is going is flawed. Right now they've locked up (or are in the process of locking up) the core talent on the team with plenty of room to finish the job (and add pieces) next off season. Judging the roster before UFA or the draft has concluded is kind of stacking the deck. Oh no, you misunderstand. Clearly that was the plan. The team, however, was not supposed to be coming into '16 in need of a defensive overhaul. That's where the change in narrative applies. You're saying it was supposed to take 2 offseasons as a process. Since when? Since when was the plan "two years of Rex, overhauling the defense and drafting for his system" to make the playoffs? It wasn't. Not until 2015 got into full-swing. Hell, part of the reason the Pegulas wanted Rex hired was because he was veteran head coach who would hit the ground running and not have any rookie growing pains. To pretend that wasn't the "plan," is just disingenuous. The plan was spend in '15, be successful due to the massive dollars thrown around, then keep the roster together as much as possible in '16. You are glossing over the most important part of the plan. It having on the field success. Who is Bradham's replacement on the roster as starting LB? Who is McK's as a good #3 CB who can play outside? I'll leave Mario alone, because that issue is not as cut-and-dried as the rest, and no one wants to go down that rabbit hole. I'd argue that the vision of the team was to win in 2015. The disappointment of that season was proof positive that the Doug Whaley plan has not worked (yet). Now, we may bounce back. We may not. But I won't concede that Doug Whaley's main goal wasn't to make the playoffs in 2015 and he spent accordingly. Fair point on stacking the deck before UFA and the draft though. These are more my fears than anything, that the '16 team will be worse off, talent-wise than '15. That's how it appears to be going. For all we know, Whaley will find a 5th round All-Pro LB and all will be well. Go Bills. Edited March 11, 2016 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Dude Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 No i think we will be worst then last season and i expect both Whaley (made a mess of our cap) and Rex to be fired after the season. This team has lost way more then they have added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted March 11, 2016 Author Share Posted March 11, 2016 If the plan is depth from FA and 2-3 starters from the draft, I feel like the best we can hope for is a wash in talent. We lost starters at DE, LB, CB and needed a RT, another LB, arguably a #2 WR. I don't see how we can get better and we are banking on draft success. Which, based off the past few years, not impossible to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 If the plan is depth from FA and 2-3 starters from the draft, I feel like the best we can hope for is a wash in talent. We lost starters at DE, LB, CB and needed a RT, another LB, arguably a #2 WR. I don't see how we can get better and we are banking on draft success. Which, based off the past few years, not impossible to believe. Well obviously you are a super impartial in your view of the team as indicated by your name. We did not lose a starting CB, our starting CBs are Darby, Gilmore and Robey. We cut loose 2 players who are better suited to play in a 4-3 defense and had bad years last year. Please explain how a draft that is deep in D-line talent and has some pretty good linebackers in the early rounds will leave us with a "wash." We now have 5 picks in the first 4 rounds, I'd be shocked if we aren't a better team next year than this past year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jletha Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 No i think we will be worst then last season and i expect both Whaley (made a mess of our cap) and Rex to be fired after the season. This team has lost way more then they have added. Hogan? Brooks? Bradham? Were these guys difference makers last year? No. Signing Richie to a team friendly deal, tagging Glenn were good moves. When the dust settles we will add affordable players. All of our playmakers are still here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Oh no, you misunderstand. Clearly that was the plan. The team, however, was not supposed to be coming into '16 in need of a defensive overhaul. That's where the change in narrative applies. You're saying it was supposed to take 2 offseasons as a process. Since when? Since when was the plan "two years of Rex, overhauling the defense and drafting for his system" to make the playoffs? It wasn't. Not until 2015 got into full-swing. Hell, part of the reason the Pegulas wanted Rex hired was because he was veteran head coach who would hit the ground running and not have any rookie growing pains. To pretend that wasn't the "plan," is just disingenuous. The plan was spend in '15, be successful due to the massive dollars thrown around, then keep the roster together as much as possible in '16. You are glossing over the most important part of the plan. It having on the field success. Who is Bradham's replacement on the roster as starting LB? Who is McK's as a good #3 CB who can play outside? I'll leave Mario alone, because that issue is not as cut-and-dried as the rest, and no one wants to go down that rabbit hole. I'd argue that the vision of the team was to win in 2015. The disappointment of that season was proof positive that the Doug Whaley plan has not worked (yet). Now, we may bounce back. We may not. But I won't concede that Doug Whaley's main goal wasn't to make the playoffs in 2015 and he spent accordingly. Fair point on stacking the deck before UFA and the draft though. These are more my fears than anything, that the '16 team will be worse off, talent-wise than '15. That's how it appears to be going. For all we know, Whaley will find a 5th round All-Pro LB and all will be well. Go Bills. I guess my most immediate question is....how much of a overhaul do you think it needs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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