History Repeats Itself -- and it's confusing

[Vinaccia]

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/53830/mike-pettines-dilemma-3-4-or-4-3-defense

 

This article details how the 4-3 failed under Wannstedt and discusses Pettines options when he was hired. It then states how Mario Williams was unhappy in a 3-4 defense in Houston and that the defense should tailor towards him who was our best defensive player at the time. That being said Mike Pettine chose to run a 4-3 under taken from Ryan (often mislabeled a 3-4) and the defense was effective in it. Schwartz came the following year with a wide 9 4-3 and the defense was still good. Rex Ryan implements a 4-3 under and the defense wasn't impressive and then he is blamed for a bad scheme.

 

Who knows what the answer is? For me Rex Ryan's 4-3 under still utilizes the 4 defensive linemen and then another linebacker next to them. I have no idea why this didn't work.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/53830/mike-pettines-dilemma-3-4-or-4-3-defense

 

This article details how the 4-3 failed under Wannstedt and discusses Pettines options when he was hired. It then states how Mario Williams was unhappy in a 3-4 defense in Houston and that the defense should tailor towards him who was our best defensive player at the time. That being said Mike Pettine chose to run a 4-3 under taken from Ryan (often mislabeled a 3-4) and the defense was effective in it. Schwartz came the following year with a wide 9 4-3 and the defense was still good. Rex Ryan implements a 4-3 under and the defense wasn't impressive and then he is blamed for a bad scheme.

 

Who knows what the answer is? For me Rex Ryan's 4-3 under still utilizes the 4 defensive linemen and then another linebacker next to them. I have no idea why this didn't work.

 

because Rex has them doing two gap instead of single, which allows for more penetration, attacking and simplicity. Plus Mario said he dropped backed in coverage on every play so there's that.

[Nihilarian]

 

because Rex has them doing two gap instead of single, which allows for more penetration, attacking and simplicity. Plus Mario said he dropped backed in coverage on every play so there's that.

Exactly! For the first part and I've been attempting to relay that to Bills fans since week two against the Patriots. Marcell Dareus has been publicly stating the same thing since training camp.

 

It's beyond moronic to take three pro bowl D-linemen who are being paid 250 million dollars to rush the passer and then to basically ask them to NOT rush the passer and instead control the gaps so the teams crappy linebackers can make the plays

 

If this year's scheme was run intending to get the fan base mad at their 100 million dollar DE in Mario Williams.., it worked! But it was also what he was asked to do in Wrex Ryans scheme and he wasn't happy about it either. So now the team and fan base will happily see Mario on a different team for the 2016 season. The fans thinking he had a bad attitude and the FO happy they have cap room! Meanwhile, the Bills lose their best pass rushing defensive end since Bruce Smith all because a moron of a supposed defensive genius only knows how to run his scheme.

 

Frankly, calling Rex Ryan a moron is an insult to morons everywhere because this man is being paid 4.25 million per to screw up a playoff caliber defense and he is even below a sub-morons mentality for doing that. Now, I don't know what to think of this new ownership who's command over their team looks to be so minimal that they allow themselves to be led around by the teams GM & CEO like a calf with a nose ring. Rex Ryan should have been fired and every single person in the entire league that understands how an NFL defense works knows this now.

 

If it were just the defense it wouldn't be so bad as the team would have been comparable to George Edwards defense only he didn't have Jerry Hughes or Mario Williams and yet he still managed more sacks.

Ryan 21 sacks vs Edwards 29 & 27 sacks. Did I mention that the Bills defense didn't have Jerry Hughes or Mario Williams in 2010-2011?

• It was the penalties
• It was the undisciplined play
• it was the defensive play call coming in so late that even the slowest offenses would hurry to the line because they knew the Bills wouldn't be ready
• it was the marginal game / red flag management during different games
• it was watching the substitute defensive linemen jumping all over so when the ball was snapped they would be out of position
• it was the loud mouthed blowhard giving the opponents bulletin board material as if teams needed more reasons to play harder against Buffalo
• and the list could go on and on...

 

As for the second part, the Bills really didn't have those linemen dropping into pass coverage on every defensive play. But it was enough so that the players themselves complained publically! Just to give some insight into just how stupid it was to have a 331 DT dropping into pass coverage and nevermind that this player isn't supposed to run sideline to sideline even though he can. He does his best work pass rushing in a phone booth type space but now he is asked to play in a 20+ yard area chasing down a TE or RB In that Kansas City game Marcell Dareus was dropped into pass coverage instead of rushing the passer on two of KC's TD passes!!

 

How Rex Ryan managed to retain his job this season is something I'll never understand and now Wrex has hired his brother Rob who was fired in NO for having the leagues near worst defense. Only in Buffalo...

[Prickly Pete]

And now we get to see the defense dismantled. And likely see a first pick spent on a D-lineman to replace the perfectly good D-lineman they will run out of town. Set the team back a couple years.

Edited January 17, 2016 by HoF Watkins

[Hapless Bills Fan]

And now we get to see the defense dismantled. And likely see a first pick spent on a D-lineman to replace the perfectly good D-lineman they will run out of town. Set the team back a couple years.

 

I don't like all the anti-Mario stuff. I do like Ty Dunne, and if the "anonymous player" quoted as saying Mario has checked out is truly the "tip of the iceberg" there's that, but it begs the question "why did one of the best DE's in football get to a place where he checked out?" All the stuff about not wanting to do conditioning tests in camp is only an issue if he doesn't perform as expected during the year. Bruce Smith training camps, 'nuff said.

 

Still, the Cold Hard Cap Facts are that there never was, no matter how lights-out Mario played, a way that we could keep everybody and sign Glenn, Incognito, and extend Gilmore, even with a bunch of restructures. So you come down to balancing what the D needs against what the O needs, and the fact that Rex apparently doesn't know what to do with an all-pro DL clinches it. Mario was on his way out of Buffalo no matter what.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Hopeful

[The Big Cat]

 

I don't like all the anti-Mario stuff. I do like Ty Dunne, and if the "anonymous player" quoted as saying Mario has checked out is truly the "tip of the iceberg" there's that, but it begs the question "why did one of the best DE's in football get to a place where he checked out?" All the stuff about not wanting to do conditioning tests in camp is only an issue if he doesn't perform as expected during the year. Bruce Smith training camps, 'nuff said.

 

Still, the Cold Hard Cap Facts are that there never was, no matter how lights-out Mario played, a way that we could keep everybody and sign Glenn, Incognito, and extend Gilmore, even with a bunch of restructures. So you come down to balancing what the D needs against what the O needs, and the fact that Rex apparently doesn't know what to do with an all-pro DL clinches it. Mario was on his way out of Buffalo no matter what.

 

If you're still asking the question in bold, it's because you won't accept the answer. My guess is because you want very badly to somehow pin his selfish behavior (which left him with very few friends in Houston, as we all know) on Rex.

 

It's not that difficult: the guy is kind of a putz.

[Doc]

 

If you're still asking the question in bold, it's because you won't accept the answer. My guess is because you want very badly to somehow pin his selfish behavior (which left him with very few friends in Houston, as we all know) on Rex.

 

It's not that difficult: the guy is kind of a putz.

 

The defense was excellent last year and this year it was a disaster. That's on Rex, for reasons mentioned above. There's no way around it.

[die hard bills fan]

Exactly! For the first part and I've been attempting to relay that to Bills fans since week two against the Patriots. Marcell Dareus has been publicly stating the same thing since training camp.

 

It's beyond moronic to take three pro bowl D-linemen who are being paid 250 million dollars to rush the passer and then to basically ask them to NOT rush the passer and instead control the gaps so the teams crappy linebackers can make the plays

 

If this year's scheme was run intending to get the fan base mad at their 100 million dollar DE in Mario Williams.., it worked! But it was also what he was asked to do in Wrex Ryans scheme and he wasn't happy about it either. So now the team and fan base will happily see Mario on a different team for the 2016 season. The fans thinking he had a bad attitude and the FO happy they have cap room! Meanwhile, the Bills lose their best pass rushing defensive end since Bruce Smith all because a moron of a supposed defensive genius only knows how to run his scheme.

 

Frankly, calling Rex Ryan a moron is an insult to morons everywhere because this man is being paid 4.25 million per to screw up a playoff caliber defense and he is even below a sub-morons mentality for doing that. Now, I don't know what to think of this new ownership who's command over their team looks to be so minimal that they allow themselves to be led around by the teams GM & CEO like a calf with a nose ring. Rex Ryan should have been fired and every single person in the entire league that understands how an NFL defense works knows this now.

 

If it were just the defense it wouldn't be so bad as the team would have been comparable to George Edwards defense only he didn't have Jerry Hughes or Mario Williams and yet he still managed more sacks.

Ryan 21 sacks vs Edwards 29 & 27 sacks. Did I mention that the Bills defense didn't have Jerry Hughes or Mario Williams in 2010-2011?

• It was the penalties
• It was the undisciplined play
• it was the defensive play call coming in so late that even the slowest offenses would hurry to the line because they knew the Bills wouldn't be ready
• it was the marginal game / red flag management during different games
• it was watching the substitute defensive linemen jumping all over so when the ball was snapped they would be out of position
• it was the loud mouthed blowhard giving the opponents bulletin board material as if teams needed more reasons to play harder against Buffalo
• and the list could go on and on...

 

As for the second part, the Bills really didn't have those linemen dropping into pass coverage on every defensive play. But it was enough so that the players themselves complained publically! Just to give some insight into just how stupid it was to have a 331 DT dropping into pass coverage and nevermind that this player isn't supposed to run sideline to sideline even though he can. He does his best work pass rushing in a phone booth type space but now he is asked to play in a 20+ yard area chasing down a TE or RB In that Kansas City game Marcell Dareus was dropped into pass coverage instead of rushing the passer on two of KC's TD passes!!

 

How Rex Ryan managed to retain his job this season is something I'll never understand and now Wrex has hired his brother Rob who was fired in NO for having the leagues near worst defense. Only in Buffalo...

Gotta agree with everything you said. Look for the D to be even worse next year.

[26CornerBlitz]

Good to see we're covering new ground here.

[Best Player Available]

And now we get to see the defense dismantled. And likely see a first pick spent on a D-lineman to replace the perfectly good D-lineman they will run out of town. Set the team back a couple years.

there's that. But assuming 94's replacement will even be worth the pick and succeed in the league is yet to be determined.

Assuming the first pick or second pick is indeed a D- lineman. What a mess.

[CardinalScotts]

a huge difference is the responsibility of the DE's ....stand the offensive tackle up, shredd the block make the tackle - do not fly upfield...both williams and hughes struggled to do this. IMO by week 10 hughes had figured it out. Mario never tried to

[boyst]

i don't want to beat a dead horse, but this is ALL on Rex Ryan.

 

 

If you're still asking the question in bold, it's because you won't accept the answer. My guess is because you want very badly to somehow pin his selfish behavior (which left him with very few friends in Houston, as we all know) on Rex.

 

It's not that difficult: the guy is kind of a putz.

so, how much does rex pay you to be his hype man? because you're beyond ridiculous with pumping him up and blaming the players for something any coach could have done better with by simply leaving it alone.

a huge difference is the responsibility of the DE's ....stand the offensive tackle up, shredd the block make the tackle - do not fly upfield...both williams and hughes struggled to do this. IMO by week 10 hughes had figured it out. Mario never tried to

hughes didn't figure it out by week 10.

 

hughes seemed to just stop doing what he was assigned. he blew a lot of tackles. remember last year he got much better at holding the edge for contain? this year he started off doing fair to above average but regressed. he saw he wasn't getting the pressure he wanted.

 

by mid season he just started rushing the passer like he did last year and succeeded - but this was often when he was on the strong side and had help - but he still made mistakes.

 

 

why would rex think his best players are going to be satisfied not rushing the passer when it is what gets them paid? rex is a moron.

[hondo in seattle]

Exactly! For the first part and I've been attempting to relay that to Bills fans since week two against the Patriots. Marcell Dareus has been publicly stating the same thing since training camp.

 

It's beyond moronic to take three pro bowl D-linemen who are being paid 250 million dollars to rush the passer and then to basically ask them to NOT rush the passer and instead control the gaps so the teams crappy linebackers can make the plays

 

If this year's scheme was run intending to get the fan base mad at their 100 million dollar DE in Mario Williams.., it worked! But it was also what he was asked to do in Wrex Ryans scheme and he wasn't happy about it either. So now the team and fan base will happily see Mario on a different team for the 2016 season. The fans thinking he had a bad attitude and the FO happy they have cap room! Meanwhile, the Bills lose their best pass rushing defensive end since Bruce Smith all because a moron of a supposed defensive genius only knows how to run his scheme.

 

Frankly, calling Rex Ryan a moron is an insult to morons everywhere because this man is being paid 4.25 million per to screw up a playoff caliber defense and he is even below a sub-morons mentality for doing that. Now, I don't know what to think of this new ownership who's command over their team looks to be so minimal that they allow themselves to be led around by the teams GM & CEO like a calf with a nose ring. Rex Ryan should have been fired and every single person in the entire league that understands how an NFL defense works knows this now.

 

If it were just the defense it wouldn't be so bad as the team would have been comparable to George Edwards defense only he didn't have Jerry Hughes or Mario Williams and yet he still managed more sacks.

Ryan 21 sacks vs Edwards 29 & 27 sacks. Did I mention that the Bills defense didn't have Jerry Hughes or Mario Williams in 2010-2011?

• It was the penalties
• It was the undisciplined play
• it was the defensive play call coming in so late that even the slowest offenses would hurry to the line because they knew the Bills wouldn't be ready
• it was the marginal game / red flag management during different games
• it was watching the substitute defensive linemen jumping all over so when the ball was snapped they would be out of position
• it was the loud mouthed blowhard giving the opponents bulletin board material as if teams needed more reasons to play harder against Buffalo
• and the list could go on and on...

 

As for the second part, the Bills really didn't have those linemen dropping into pass coverage on every defensive play. But it was enough so that the players themselves complained publically! Just to give some insight into just how stupid it was to have a 331 DT dropping into pass coverage and nevermind that this player isn't supposed to run sideline to sideline even though he can. He does his best work pass rushing in a phone booth type space but now he is asked to play in a 20+ yard area chasing down a TE or RB In that Kansas City game Marcell Dareus was dropped into pass coverage instead of rushing the passer on two of KC's TD passes!!

 

How Rex Ryan managed to retain his job this season is something I'll never understand and now Wrex has hired his brother Rob who was fired in NO for having the leagues near worst defense. Only in Buffalo...

 

This is a really good analysis. (But I wish I knew more about actual assignments: two-gap versus one-gap: Is Rex really universally two-gap?).

 

I can't agree with the sentiment in the last sentence however. If you blow up the coaching staff every year, you won't ever win many games and you won't be able to attract good coaches or players. Continuity is important for players - they need time to excel in a system.

 

But it's also important for coaches. Coaches want to work some place where they'll be able to keep a job for a few years, settle into the community, allow their kids to enjoy normal friendships and after-school activities. No good coach wants to work for an owner with a one-year leash.

 

Given's Roman's good track record with offenses, and Rex's good track record with defenses (last year's debacle excepted), it makes sense to keep these guys together to see what they can do in Year 2.

 

Every coach has outlier years. No coach can be defined by his first or worst season.

 

Marv Levy went 31-42 with the Chiefs. He went 9-13 his first season and a half with the Bills. Thankfully, Ralph didn't give Marv a short-lease and the following year the Bills went 12-4. Continuity matters.

Edited January 17, 2016 by hondo in seattle

[boyst]

 

This is a really good analysis. (But I wish I knew more about actual assignments: two-gap versus one-gap: Is Rex really universally two-gap?).

 

I can't agree with the sentiment in the last sentence however. If you blow up the coaching staff every year, you won't ever win many games and you won't be able to attract good coaches or players. Continuity is important for players - they need time to excel in a system.

 

But it's also important for coaches. Coaches want to work some place where they'll be able to keep a job for a few years, settle into the community, allow their kids to enjoy normal friendships and after-school activities. No good coach wants to work for an owner with a one-year leash.

 

Given's Roman's good track record with offenses, and Rex's good track record with defenses (last year's debacle excepted), it makes sense to keep these guys together to see what they can do in Year 2.

 

Every coach has outlier years. No coach can be defined by his first or worst season.

 

Marv Levy went 31-42 with the Chiefs. He went 9-13 his first season and a half with the Bills. Thankfully, Ralph didn't give Marv a short-lease and the following year the Bills went 12-4. Continuity matters.

the blow up the coaching staff every year gets a little played out.

 

the best teams lose coordinators every year and generally continue to succeed and it is not solely on the head coach.

[87168]

a 4-3 ran by one DC may differ from a 4-3 ran by another. it has less to do with the scheme's label and more with execution. as we saw throughout this entire season, their execution was poor. this was even pointed out by Brown.

[Max997]

Pettine tried to run a 3-4 at the beginning of that season but it wasn't working so he went with more 4-3 rest of the year and the defense played better although still couldn't stop the run

 

The only part of a base defense that really matters anymore is the Dline since defenses are in the nickel more often than not these days. It's also what the defense is asking the Dline to do as Rex's defense wants his Dlineman to take up blockers where Schwartz's was more about penetrating and disrupting.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Max997

[Alaska Darin]

 

The defense was excellent last year and this year it was a disaster. That's on Rex, for reasons mentioned above. There's no way around it.

The defense wasn't excellent. With the exception of the Packers' game, the defense got lit up against good teams in much the same manner it did this season. If the Packers' coaching staff hadn't inexplicably stopped running the ball in that game, that game likely looks much different too.

 

1. San Diego dominated the game in Buffalo.

2. New England dominated the game in Buffalo.

3. They couldn't stop the Raiders in a must win game.

4. With the game on the line in the 4th quarter against Houston, they gave up a five minute FG drive and then on the ensuing possession needing the ball back gave up a short pass that was turned into a first down.

5. To open the fourth quarter against Minnesota, gave up a 28 yard pass on 3rd and 18. That drive ended in a FG that ended up forcing the BILLS to have to score a TD with no time left to win the game.

6. With a 9-3 lead in the third quarter in Miami, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 22-9 loss.

7. With a 13-3 lead late in the third quarter against Kansas City, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 17-13 loss.

 

The defense last season had more sacks but they suffered from the same "coming up small when it matters" thing that happens to most teams that don't make the playoffs.

[bmur66]

The Bro Ryan Defense try's to confuse the offense and gain an advantage by substituting players after the offense tips their hand. It's a complex scheme that requires smart players to implement. Sounds like something that would suit a team with inferior talent. Different than the 2014 defense whose strength was the front 4 lining up and beating their man with their God given talent.

I don't know crap but that's my take on it. Not too hard to understand why it didn't take well.

[Doc]

The defense wasn't excellent. With the exception of the Packers' game, the defense got lit up against good teams in much the same manner it did this season.

 

1. San Diego dominated the game in Buffalo.

2. New England dominated the game in Buffalo.

3. They couldn't stop the Raiders in a must win game.

4. With the game on the line in the 4th quarter against Houston, they gave up a five minute FG drive and then on the ensuing possession gave up a short pass that was turned into a first down.

5. To open the fourth quarter against Minnesota, gave up a 28 yard pass on 3rd and 18. That drive ended in a FG that ended up forcing the BILLS to have to score a TD with no time left to win the game.

6. With a 9-3 lead in the third quarter in Miami, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 22-9 loss.

7. With a 13-3 lead late in the third quarter against Kansas City, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 17-13 loss.

 

The problems with the team last year were mostly on offense. When your defense allows 20 or fewer points, like it did in 4 of the games mentioned above, the team should win.

[Alaska Darin]

 

The problems with the team last year were mostly on offense. When your defense allows 20 or fewer points, like it did in 4 of the games mentioned above, the team should win.

Excellent defenses are measured by their ability to make a play when their team needs them to. This defense has come up consistently short in that regard and it's not debatable.