History Repeats Itself -- and it's confusing

[Doc]

Excellent defenses are measured by their ability to make a play when their team needs them to. This defense has come up consistently short in that regard and it's not debatable.

 

If you want to get into a semantic debate over whether the defense was "excellent," fine. But was is less debatable that if the Bills had the defense from last year, they'd be in the playoffs this year. Again, that's on Ryan. I slammed Marrone for his offense being poor, considering it was supposedly his forte, and I'll do the same for Ryan.

[Max997]

The defense wasn't excellent. With the exception of the Packers' game, the defense got lit up against good teams in much the same manner it did this season. If the Packers' coaching staff hadn't inexplicably stopped running the ball in that game, that game likely looks much different too.

 

1. San Diego dominated the game in Buffalo.

2. New England dominated the game in Buffalo.

3. They couldn't stop the Raiders in a must win game.

4. With the game on the line in the 4th quarter against Houston, they gave up a five minute FG drive and then on the ensuing possession needing the ball back gave up a short pass that was turned into a first down.

5. To open the fourth quarter against Minnesota, gave up a 28 yard pass on 3rd and 18. That drive ended in a FG that ended up forcing the BILLS to have to score a TD with no time left to win the game.

6. With a 9-3 lead in the third quarter in Miami, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 22-9 loss.

7. With a 13-3 lead late in the third quarter against Kansas City, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 17-13 loss.

 

The defense last season had more sacks but they suffered from the same "coming up small when it matters" thing that happens to most teams that don't make the playoffs.

They were not the '85 Bears but the defense under Schwartz was really good with with the exception of the Pats game in Buffalo. You can pick them apart for a play here and there but the defense was number 4 in the league overall and led the league in sacks.

 

Rex was supposed to be this defensive genius but ended up being a micro manager with an over complicated defensive scheme that had his players thinking instead of reacting which is never good.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Max997

[Alaska Darin]

 

If you want to get into a semantic debate over whether the defense was "excellent," fine. But was is less debatable that if the Bills had the defense from last year, they'd be in the playoffs this year. Again, that's on Ryan. I slammed Marrone for his offense being poor, considering it was supposedly his forte, and I'll do the same for Ryan.

Based on what? They had essentially the very same problems against quality opponents that they did this season. Everyone is pining for something that was statistical, not real. That defense wasn't EXCELLENT. Excellent defenses don't get dominated by the Raiders or lose 2 score leads late in the second half.

They were not the '85 Bears and with the exception of the Pats game in Buffalo the defense under Schwartz was really good. You can pick them apart for a play here and there but the defense was number 4 in the league overall and led the league in sacks.

It wasn't "really good". It was the product of a favorable schedule and consistently came up small when it mattered.

 

The only thing "number 4 ranked" and "led the league in sacks" tells us is that we need to look deeper to see why they didn't play well when it mattered most.

[HamSandwhich]

Exactly! For the first part and I've been attempting to relay that to Bills fans since week two against the Patriots. Marcell Dareus has been publicly stating the same thing since training camp.

 

It's beyond moronic to take three pro bowl D-linemen who are being paid 250 million dollars to rush the passer and then to basically ask them to NOT rush the passer and instead control the gaps so the teams crappy linebackers can make the plays

 

If this year's scheme was run intending to get the fan base mad at their 100 million dollar DE in Mario Williams.., it worked! But it was also what he was asked to do in Wrex Ryans scheme and he wasn't happy about it either. So now the team and fan base will happily see Mario on a different team for the 2016 season. The fans thinking he had a bad attitude and the FO happy they have cap room! Meanwhile, the Bills lose their best pass rushing defensive end since Bruce Smith all because a moron of a supposed defensive genius only knows how to run his scheme.

 

Frankly, calling Rex Ryan a moron is an insult to morons everywhere because this man is being paid 4.25 million per to screw up a playoff caliber defense and he is even below a sub-morons mentality for doing that. Now, I don't know what to think of this new ownership who's command over their team looks to be so minimal that they allow themselves to be led around by the teams GM & CEO like a calf with a nose ring. Rex Ryan should have been fired and every single person in the entire league that understands how an NFL defense works knows this now.

 

If it were just the defense it wouldn't be so bad as the team would have been comparable to George Edwards defense only he didn't have Jerry Hughes or Mario Williams and yet he still managed more sacks.

Ryan 21 sacks vs Edwards 29 & 27 sacks. Did I mention that the Bills defense didn't have Jerry Hughes or Mario Williams in 2010-2011?

• It was the penalties
• It was the undisciplined play
• it was the defensive play call coming in so late that even the slowest offenses would hurry to the line because they knew the Bills wouldn't be ready
• it was the marginal game / red flag management during different games
• it was watching the substitute defensive linemen jumping all over so when the ball was snapped they would be out of position
• it was the loud mouthed blowhard giving the opponents bulletin board material as if teams needed more reasons to play harder against Buffalo
• and the list could go on and on...

 

As for the second part, the Bills really didn't have those linemen dropping into pass coverage on every defensive play. But it was enough so that the players themselves complained publically! Just to give some insight into just how stupid it was to have a 331 DT dropping into pass coverage and nevermind that this player isn't supposed to run sideline to sideline even though he can. He does his best work pass rushing in a phone booth type space but now he is asked to play in a 20+ yard area chasing down a TE or RB In that Kansas City game Marcell Dareus was dropped into pass coverage instead of rushing the passer on two of KC's TD passes!!

 

How Rex Ryan managed to retain his job this season is something I'll never understand and now Wrex has hired his brother Rob who was fired in NO for having the leagues near worst defense. Only in Buffalo...

I really can't give any credence to a person who is clearly on a crusade. It's year 1, there are growing pains. The D took a major step back, but I'm interested to see what Rex and co. can do with some continuity and some more players that fit Rex's system. Rex has been a defensive genius his entire career in the NFL. This season is an anomaly in my opinion.

[Max997]

Based on what? They had essentially the very same problems against quality opponents that they did this season. Everyone is pining for something that was statistical, not real. That defense wasn't EXCELLENT. Excellent defenses don't get dominated by the Raiders or lose 2 score leads late in the second half.

 

It wasn't "really good". It was the product of a favorable schedule and consistently came up small when it mattered.

 

The only thing "number 4 ranked" and "led the league in sacks" tells us is that we need to look deeper to see why they didn't play well when it mattered most.

If the defensive success in 2014 was based on a favorable schedule then why wasn't the defense better this year vs a more favorable schedule which included the NFC East and AFC South?

 

Your conclusion that a defense can be a product of a favorable schedule is severely flawed

Edited January 17, 2016 by Max997

[Alaska Darin]

If the defensive success in 2014 was based on a favorable schedule then why wasn't the defense better this year vs a more favorable schedule which included the NFC East and AFC South?

 

Your conclusion that a defense can be a product of a favorable schedule is severely flawed

So you're saying a defense can't be the product of a favorable schedule?

 

The defense this season was disappointing given the schedule but there are a variety of reasons, not just the coaching/scheme change. The reality of the NFL is that teams adapt to what you do so you have to evolve. Obviously there were injuries to key players (especially Kyle and Aaron Williams) and the loss of Searcy didn't look as bad on paper as it turned out to be on the field (our safety play was terrible).

 

The biggest disappointment this season was Mario Williams because he was consistently singled and wasn't able to beat his man. If he'd played with half the passion of Jerry Hughes our defense would have been light years better.

[Doc]

So you're saying a defense can't be the product of a favorable schedule?

 

The defense this season was disappointing given the schedule but there are a variety of reasons, not just the coaching/scheme change. The reality of the NFL is that teams adapt to what you do so you have to evolve. Obviously there were injuries to key players (especially Kyle and Aaron Williams) and the loss of Searcy didn't look as bad on paper as it turned out to be on the field (our safety play was terrible).

 

The biggest disappointment this season was Mario Williams because he was consistently singled and wasn't able to beat his man. If he'd played with half the passion of Jerry Hughes our defense would have been light years better.

 

The problems were far greater than just Mario. And it all starts with the HC, who is supposed to a defensive guru. Now that he's added his crappy brother as DC, I don't expect things to get much better. But there's always hope.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

doomed we have been flopping between defense schemes for years now every year changing coordinators etc. I hate to say it but lets give rex four years to try to make this team good and if that fails blow up and start again. its gonna make for crappy watching again.

[FireChan]

Based on what? They had essentially the very same problems against quality opponents that they did this season. Everyone is pining for something that was statistical, not real. That defense wasn't EXCELLENT. Excellent defenses don't get dominated by the Raiders or lose 2 score leads late in the second half.

 

It wasn't "really good". It was the product of a favorable schedule and consistently came up small when it mattered.

 

The only thing "number 4 ranked" and "led the league in sacks" tells us is that we need to look deeper to see why they didn't play well when it mattered most.

How did they consistently come up small when it mattered?

 

Has there been an excellent or very good defenses in the NFL in the last 5 years? Examples?

Edited January 17, 2016 by FireChan

[machine gun kelly]

The really sad thing is each year I was a little more hopeful watching us slowly improve in talent and feel we were on our way finally to the playoffs.

 

Now, I feel we will be worse next year with a harder schedule. We played the crappy NFCE, and AFCS. Two of the worst divisions in the NFL and we barely hit 8-8. Next year we get to play the NFCW (that should be fun, not), and AFCN. Won't that be a fun record playing:

 

Cardinals

Seahawks

Steelers

Bengals

Rams

Ravens (they have been a playoff team 7 of the last 9 years - I'm sure they will be back)

 

Oh and BTW, the Pats twice and an improved Jets team.

 

Can anyone honestly say we will be better than 6-10 or 5-11? If there was a quiet ultimatum, Rex should out his house up for sale now. He'll go in the media, make serious money and never come back, as he'll know he really was a failure. His type of defense has passed by, and he doesn't know squat about offense, or clock management. He also can't seem to know how to coach his players not to make absolutely stupid mistakes causing penalties.

He's entertaining though so will end up on ESPN with Boomer, CBS with the Chin, or with Bradshaw. He will immediately get the best spot on the media side, and probably will be very good at it.

 

We'll rebuild again and only if good hiring decisions are made might make the playoffs by 2019. God I need to start drinking now. Just kidding.

[FLFan]

The defense wasn't excellent. With the exception of the Packers' game, the defense got lit up against good teams in much the same manner it did this season. If the Packers' coaching staff hadn't inexplicably stopped running the ball in that game, that game likely looks much different too.

 

1. San Diego dominated the game in Buffalo.

2. New England dominated the game in Buffalo.

3. They couldn't stop the Raiders in a must win game.

4. With the game on the line in the 4th quarter against Houston, they gave up a five minute FG drive and then on the ensuing possession needing the ball back gave up a short pass that was turned into a first down.

5. To open the fourth quarter against Minnesota, gave up a 28 yard pass on 3rd and 18. That drive ended in a FG that ended up forcing the BILLS to have to score a TD with no time left to win the game.

6. With a 9-3 lead in the third quarter in Miami, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 22-9 loss.

7. With a 13-3 lead late in the third quarter against Kansas City, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 17-13 loss.

 

The defense last season had more sacks but they suffered from the same "coming up small when it matters" thing that happens to most teams that don't make the playoffs.

This is one of the few rational posts I have seen on this subject, not only in this thread, but in the myriad others suggeting Rex Ryan is the sole reason for the seeming regression of the defense. Let me also point out that on last year's defense, while they were good against the run early, in the last half of the season they were giving up running yards in big chunks. Last year's defense had better stats but their accomplishments are overblown by fans on this board, and in fact, did lose the Bills their share of games. They were not a dominant defense, although they could be at times, just as this year's could.

 

The change in coaching and scheme no doubt had some impact. I think the loss of Aaron Wiliams early had a huge impact, as did the loss of Kyle Williams fairly early in the season. Not having McKelvin also hurt, although many fans here seem to think otherwise. To me there is also no question that some of the Billls star players underperformed. Mario is at the head of this queue, but Dareus lacked consistent effort. Hughes seems to come around in the last half, but Brown and Bradham were largely ineffective, and regressed dramatically.

 

Is that all scheme? Did Ryan forget how to coach? How much was due to these factors, and how much was due to the players not being up to it, is the key question and while I do not know the answer,I am sure it is not as simple as one or other. What is saw from a number of individual players on this team this year is guys believing more in their own press clippings and caring more about their own stats than the success of the team. This gets to the heart of Alaska's post. Last year's team ultimately also failed, and the defense was a part of that failure. Perhaps they are just not as good as they think they are.

 

In any case it is clear to me that the Bills need to start purging this team of players who will not buy in, will not play hard for their teammates, will not show leadership either by their actions or their vocal support. Starting with Mario Williams.

How did they consistently come up small when it mattered?

 

Has there been an excellent or very good defenses in the NFL in the last 5 years? Examples?

I think most would say Seattle had an outstanding run of dominant defense although they seemed to slip a little this year. Arizona is also pretty darn good, as is Denver this year. All three of those examples are better than anything the Bills have fielded, and not necessarily because they have more supposed talent.

[bobobonators]

 

The defense was excellent last year and this year it was a disaster. That's on Rex, for reasons mentioned above. There's no way around it.

 

Talk about being dramatic.

[FireChan]

This is one of the few rational posts I have seen on this subject, not only in this thread, but in the myriad others suggeting Rex Ryan is the sole reason for the seeming regression of the defense. Let me also point out that on last year's defense, while they were good against the run early, in the last half of the season they were giving up running yards in big chunks. Last year's defense had better stats but their accomplishments are overblown by fans on this board, and in fact, did lose the Bills their share of games. They were not a dominant defense, although they could be at times, just as this year's could.

 

The change in coaching and scheme no doubt had some impact. I think the loss of Aaron Wiliams early had a huge impact, as did the loss of Kyle Williams fairly early in the season. Not having McKelvin also hurt, although many fans here seem to think otherwise. To me there is also no question that some of the Billls star players underperformed. Mario is at the head of this queue, but Dareus lacked consistent effort. Hughes seems to come around in the last half, but Brown and Bradham were largely ineffective, and regressed dramatically.

 

Is that all scheme? Did Ryan forget how to coach? How much was due to these factors, and how much was due to the players not being up to it, is the key question and while I do not know the answer,I am sure it is not as simple as one or other. What is saw from a number of individual players on this team this year is guys believing more in their own press clippings and caring more about their own stats than the success of the team. This gets to the heart of Alaska's post. Last year's team ultimately also failed, and the defense was a part of that failure. Perhaps they are just not as good as they think they are.

 

In any case it is clear to me that the Bills need to start purging this team of players who will not buy in, will not play hard for their teammates, will not show leadership either by their actions or their vocal support. Starting with Mario Williams.

I think most would say Seattle had an outstanding run of dominant defense although they seemed to slip a little this year. Arizona is also pretty darn good, as is Denver this year. All three of those examples are better than anything the Bills have fielded, and not necessarily because they have more supposed talent.

I was specifically asking AD, but thank you.

Edited January 17, 2016 by FireChan

[Doc]

Talk about being dramatic.

 

Perhaps. But going from 4th to 15th in PPG, under a defensive-minded coach, isn't good no matter what you want to call it.

[FLFan]

I was specifically asking AD, but thank you.

Your welcome.

[What a Tuel]

If the defensive success in 2014 was based on a favorable schedule then why wasn't the defense better this year vs a more favorable schedule which included the NFC East and AFC South?

 

Your conclusion that a defense can be a product of a favorable schedule is severely flawed

 

The defense actually played very well against the Titans, Giants, Jaguars, Colts, Pats 2, Dolphins 1 and 2, Jets 1 and 2 despite the lack of sacks. No one will admit it though.

 

Against the Giants, one play defined that loss, and it wasn't scheme, it was a missed tackle. Jaguars, despite Manuel spotting them 20 points the defense held them to 14 points.

 

As for Mario, statistically Mario gave up after the BYE week, and although I am sure his complaints about scheme are valid, I wonder what would've happened those last 9 games if he had played. Not playing sure hurt worse than scheme.

 

Post Bye Week (9 games - Mario 8 games)

Mario 5 tackles (2 sacks)

Dareus 21 tackles (1 sack)

Bryant 15 tackles (0 sacks)

Hughes 23 tackles (4 sacks)

 

Pre Bye Week Mario (7 games)

Mario 10 tackles (3 sacks)

Dareus 17 tackles (1 sack)

Williams/Bryant 19 tackles (0 sacks)

Hughes 14 tackles (1 sack)

Edited January 17, 2016 by What a Tuel

[The Big Cat]

I was specifically asking AD, but thank you.

 

[CookieG]

The defense wasn't excellent. With the exception of the Packers' game, the defense got lit up against good teams in much the same manner it did this season. If the Packers' coaching staff hadn't inexplicably stopped running the ball in that game, that game likely looks much different too.

 

1. San Diego dominated the game in Buffalo.

2. New England dominated the game in Buffalo.

3. They couldn't stop the Raiders in a must win game.

4. With the game on the line in the 4th quarter against Houston, they gave up a five minute FG drive and then on the ensuing possession needing the ball back gave up a short pass that was turned into a first down.

5. To open the fourth quarter against Minnesota, gave up a 28 yard pass on 3rd and 18. That drive ended in a FG that ended up forcing the BILLS to have to score a TD with no time left to win the game.

6. With a 9-3 lead in the third quarter in Miami, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 22-9 loss.

7. With a 13-3 lead late in the third quarter against Kansas City, gave up back-to-back TD drives in what ended up a 17-13 loss.

 

The defense last season had more sacks but they suffered from the same "coming up small when it matters" thing that happens to most teams that don't make the playoffs.

 

This is a bit of cherry picking (well, more than a bit). I mean, in 2 of your 7 examples...you're complaining about the D giving up a field goal.

 

Against SD, Rivers dominated ..for a half. After giving up a TD to start the 2nd half, the Bills D caused 5 consecutive 3 and outs. It would have been a tough comeback, but it was still winnable. The offense responded with a single TD. "dominating" by allowing 2 TD's is a reach, especially if you want to use the "when it mattered" argument. If the 2nd half is "when it matters" argument...5 consecutive 3 and outs.

 

The D held Houston to a single TD and caused 3 turnovers. But you want to focus on a single drive that ended up in a FG as "coming up small". Yes, they denied the offense the opportunity for another 3 and out or a pick 6.

 

Minnesota...another game in which the D gave up a single touchdown the entire game and caused 2 turnovers. "When it mattered", they gave up 3 points the entire 2nd half.

 

Miami...they gave up 2 TD's..one of the FG's they gave up was on a drive started at Buff's 12 yard line. Did it matter? The offense failed to score a single TD.

 

Kansas City....one of the 2 TD drives started around the Bills' 20 or so, thanks to Leodis. They caused the Chiefs to punt 8 times and caused a fumble. The Bills scored a single TD in the entire game and a whopping 3 points in the entire 2nd half.

 

NE certainly dominated them in game 1. Wouldn't be the first time its happened.

 

As far as "couldn't stop the Raiders" it certainly wasnt their best game. On the other hand, they had 5 3 and outs in the first half. Too bad the Buffalo offense matched the Raiders 3 and outs for the first half.

 

I don't know...this isn't the 1970's any more, where teams regularly win games 10-3. Other teams do score touchdowns...and usually do it on a regular basis. More games are won on a 30-27 basis than they are 10-3.

 

And when you have an offense that's continually giving the ball back to an opposing offense via 3 and out, you're putting wayyyyyy too much pressure on your D.

[The Big Cat]

 

The defense was excellent last year and this year it was a disaster. That's on Rex, for reasons mentioned above. There's no way around it.

 

We're talking about Mario.

 

 

so, how much does rex pay you to be his hype man? because you're beyond ridiculous with pumping him up and blaming the players for something any coach could have done better with by simply leaving it alone.

 

We're talking about Mario.

 

You can ignore his patterned behavior and make it about Rex, that's fine. It's curious. But it's fine.

[boyst]

 

We're talking about Mario.

 

 

We're talking about Mario.

 

You can ignore his patterned behavior and make it about Rex, that's fine. It's curious. But it's fine.

yep, we are talking about mario's attitude which is a byproduct of a moron named rex ryan who ruined an all star.

yep, it's all about mario.

 

what has rex done?