JoeF Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13290743/green-bay-packers-financial-records-reveal-2264m-nfl-revenue-sharing Back of the envelope: Bills costs of operations are likely about $250 million in salaries/bonuses, game day ops, lease, etc. Revenue Share: $227 million Tickets: $100 million (70,000 seats at $1500 per) Concessions/Parking: $20 million Local Marketing agreements: $5 million Other (miscellaneous events): $2 million $354 million Net Profit: $100 million -- tax factor brings it to $80 million -- Pegulas buying price was a donation to us... but the team produces positive cash flow...no way they ever get a great return on the capital though.. Thank you Terry and Kim.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13290743/green-bay-packers-financial-records-reveal-2264m-nfl-revenue-sharing Back of the envelope: Bills costs of operations are likely about $250 million in salaries/bonuses, game day ops, lease, etc. Revenue Share: $227 million Tickets: $100 million (70,000 seats at $1500 per) Concessions/Parking: $20 million Local Marketing agreements: $5 million Other (miscellaneous events): $2 million $354 million Net Profit: $100 million -- tax factor brings it to $80 million -- Pegulas buying price was a donation to us... but the team produces positive cash flow...no way they ever get a great return on the capital though.. Thank you Terry and Kim.. It was a great present to all of us Buffalo Bills fans. Thank you Kim and Terry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwalter Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 0.1 BN / 1.4 BN = 7% is a little low, but for a relatively safe investment, it's not a terrible ROI. typically though, you are correct, if it was just about the money they'd likely have looked for something closer to 15%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecarter Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I pretty sure the return will continue to grow. And the assets value is stable. What $1.4B investment is almost risk free and returns 7%? Trust me I love that they bought the Bills, but this is not charity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Isnt this a investment that will pay for itself (and then some) over time? Isnt that the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13290743/green-bay-packers-financial-records-reveal-2264m-nfl-revenue-sharing Back of the envelope: Bills costs of operations are likely about $250 million in salaries/bonuses, game day ops, lease, etc. Revenue Share: $227 million Tickets: $100 million (70,000 seats at $1500 per) Concessions/Parking: $20 million Local Marketing agreements: $5 million Other (miscellaneous events): $2 million $354 million Net Profit: $100 million -- tax factor brings it to $80 million -- Pegulas buying price was a donation to us... but the team produces positive cash flow...no way they ever get a great return on the capital though.. Thank you Terry and Kim.. Aren't your average ticket costs wildly high? And the rest completely made up too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The average season ticket is $187+ per game? Box seats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) http://business.time.com/2012/03/09/why-1-5-billion-for-the-dodgers-might-turn-out-to-be-a-bargain/ . . . according to the The U.S. Professional Sports Market & Franchise Value Report 2011, average franchise values in the first decade of this millennium increased 141% for the NFL (from $423 million to $1 billion) . . . * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To understand the economics of team ownership—and to see why owners and league officials aren’t to be trusted when it comes to money—you must understand a peculiarity of U.S. tax law. It’s complicated, but team owners can basically write off the entire purchase price of their teams over 15 years, on whatever schedule they like. As Keating noted, “This is a fabulous way to make profits disappear for tax purposes—or during labor negotiations.” In other words, when owners tell unions (and you) that player salaries are killing them, they conveniently fail to mention that those salaries also provide a key tax break, the so-called Roster Depreciation Allowance. This affects accounting in various ways, all of which are completely legal and totally advantageous to owners. Most importantly, owners get to deduct player salaries twice over, as an actual expense (since they’re actually paying them) and as a depreciating asset (like GM would for a factory or FedEx a jet). The result? Ledgers that routinely show lower profits (or even losses) than in reality exist. Historical perspective at: http://www.chicagonow.com/white-sox-observer/2012/06/the-hustler-bill-veeck-and-roster-depreciation-allowance/ Edited July 21, 2015 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeF Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 Aren't your average ticket costs wildly high? And the rest completely made up too? Hence the phrase back of the envelope.....but my 2 nosebleeds this year were $1200 ($600 average) and balance that out with 2/3 of the seats in the stadium being double my price or more -- I don't think its that far off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I thought that regular ticket sales were part of the revenue sharing, and only premium seats went straight to the teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I'd be very curious to know how the revenue breaks down in terms of percentages between TV deals, tickets, concessions, parking, naming rights, etc. How significant are ticket sales compared to the TV money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I'd be very curious to know how the revenue breaks down in terms of percentages between TV deals, tickets, concessions, parking, naming rights, etc. How significant are ticket sales compared to the TV money? My guess is ticket sales dwarf in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I'd guess Bills total costs are not much more than $200m considering the county and state pick up most of the costs of operating the stadium with Bills paying very little in rent. Left with basically player, coach, and admin salaries. I'd guess Bills pull in around $8m per home game in tickets, parking, concessions, merchandise. So $227m revenue sharing basically covers all the team's expenses with all the gameday revenue as profit ($8m times 8 home games plus 2 pre-season games probably gets you to $70m). Doesn't sound like NFL owners pay much if any taxes on that profit either. Not a bad racket. Owning Bills is like owning a tax free AAA-rated bond that pays 5% per year and appreciates in value. Not gonna find many better ways to invest $1.4 billion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Hence the phrase back of the envelope.....but my 2 nosebleeds this year were $1200 ($600 average) and balance that out with 2/3 of the seats in the stadium being double my price or more -- I don't think its that far off...i dont think 2/3 of the stadium is double or more your $600. the average non-premium ticket last year was $62, with the average premium (ie club) being $202. if the stadium were split 50-50 (its not) that would average down to $130. Realistically, far less than 50% make up that high end price. additionally, as someone mentioned, a portion of ticket revenue is in that calculation is shared (as are a variety of others that i think you may have double counted). and i think you pulled a few numbers out of thin air. Edited July 21, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) i dont think 2/3 of the stadium is double or more your $600. the average non-premium ticket last year was $62, with the average premium (ie club) being $202. if the stadium were split 50-50 (its not) that would average down to $130. Realistically, far less than 50% make up that high end price. additionally, as someone mentioned, a portion of ticket revenue is in that calculation is shared (as are a variety of others that i think you may have double counted). and i think you pulled a few numbers out of thin air. You are right on your numbers but don't a third (or maybe 40%) of the tix sales go to away teams and a third or 40% of the Bills tix revenues come from their away game revenues with drastically higher prices in a lot of places that would raise ours? Edited July 21, 2015 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I've always suspected they could have gotten the team for less given the suspect competition, but this is a solid return on investment. The annual shared revenue will likely keep going up every year, so will their margin. Also, the value of the team will continue to increase in value. The TV money per team in 2016 is at least 181 million. This is probably the safest investment in the world, if you have the ability to get in on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 You are right on your numbers but don't a third (or maybe 40%) of the tix sales go to away teams and a third or 40% of the Bills tix revenues come from their away game revenues with drastically higher prices in a lot of places that would raise ours? yea, something along those lines. I suppose my point was the numbers seemed pulled out of thin air to a large degree, so folks calculating ROI based off them are probably getting ahead of themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13290743/green-bay-packers-financial-records-reveal-2264m-nfl-revenue-sharing Back of the envelope: Bills costs of operations are likely about $250 million in salaries/bonuses, game day ops, lease, etc. Revenue Share: $227 million Tickets: $100 million (70,000 seats at $1500 per) Concessions/Parking: $20 million Local Marketing agreements: $5 million Other (miscellaneous events): $2 million $354 million Net Profit: $100 million -- tax factor brings it to $80 million -- Pegulas buying price was a donation to us... but the team produces positive cash flow...no way they ever get a great return on the capital though.. Thank you Terry and Kim.. I'll bet it doesn't in Dallas !! Thats why Jerry gets pissed at teams like the Bills !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeF Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 From Forbes Sports Franchise Value Last year. Should have looked this up before I gave a wild ass guess. Seems I personally offended NoSaint so I apologize. Revenue2 : $252 M Operating Income3 : $38 M Debt/Value4 : 13% Player Expenses5 : $138 M Gate Receipts6 : $46 M Wins-to-player cost ratio7 : 74 Revenue per Fan8 : $76 Metro Area Population: 1.1 M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 <p> From Forbes Sports Franchise Value Last year. Should have looked this up before I gave a wild ass guess. Seems I personally offended NoSaint so I apologize. Revenue2 : $252 M Operating Income3 : $38 M Debt/Value4 : 13% Player Expenses5 : $138 M Gate Receipts6 : $46 M Wins-to-player cost ratio7 : 74 Revenue per Fan8 : $76 Metro Area Population: 1.1 M If I'm correct in assuming their gate receipts are an accurate comp to your ticket sales, you were only 54 million off on that line item. I'm not sure you get to call me out for saying something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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