YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 You told the person you responded to that your opinion was that he was wrong. "I think EJ had a better cast" "I think it was a push" = "I think EJ had a better cast" "I think you're wrong" I wasn't trying to be rude, the way you worded those lines in that post just sounded funny. No, I didn't say his opinion was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Carr - decisive leader, made the best of what he had to work with in Oakland, student of the game, got better as year went on, accurate and can throw on the run Carr's 3 lowest completion percentage games were at the end of the season. Tell me again how he got better as the year went along? I think people see what they want to see. He had a nice rookie campaign and shows promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 No, I didn't say his opinion was wrong. Having a different opinion than someone on an issue is inherently the same as thinking their opinion is wrong. Or else, you'd think they were correct and agree with them. In order to have the opinion that the casts were a push, you must not think the 2013 Bills cast was better. Ergo, his opinion is not correct. You didn't spell it out, but it's a fundamental part of contradicting opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Carr's 3 lowest completion percentage games were at the end of the season. Tell me again how he got better as the year went along? I think people see what they want to see. He had a nice rookie campaign and shows promise. More goes into evaluating a QB than just comp% over 3 games. One of those completions was a roll out right and hit a deep one in Q4 in a win against bills, a top rated defense. And btw the thread asks for "perception" Edited February 17, 2015 by JTSP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Having a different opinion than someone on an issue is inherently the same as thinking their opinion is wrong. Or else, you'd think they were correct and agree with them. In order to have the opinion that the casts were a push, you must not think the 2013 Bills cast was better. Ergo, his opinion is not correct. You didn't spell it out, but it's a fundamental part of contradicting opinions. O__o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) O__o This got off track... Carr gets too much love though. I think Teddy will be better. Edited February 17, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not at the table Karlos Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don't see carr becoming a "franchise" quarterback. I also have no idea why everyone thinks he was good last season. People were praising him against the bills when he completed something like 45% of his passes. I think it is just people thinking that anything is better than ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The perception of Derek Carr is that he is a franchise QB in the making in Oakland, and the Raiders should build around him. The perception of EJ is he is a bust in the making in Buffalo and the Bills should replace him. I saw this tweet and it made me think that while most of us have reservations about EJ it doesn't make much sense to give up on him this early. @ChrisTrapasso: Reminder: #Bills QB EJ Manuel has played fewer games than Derek Carr. Manuel better comp %, TD %, YPA, QB rating. Carr better sack %, INT % The expectations around these two QBs were very different. The Raiders were rebuilding and not expected to win many games. There wasn't pressure on Carr to win. He wasn't asked to play not to lose, IMO. He didn't win his first game until November. He won 3 games total out of 16. None on the road. EJ's situation called for him to win now. He was not looked at as a developing player he was looked at immediately as the guy holding the team back because he was... Developing. Not saying that's wrong but the timing was not in his favor like it was for Guys like Carr and Bortles. They are not expected to be great right away because their teams are rebuilding. The Bills were already built. And coaches and GMs felt their jobs were on the line with new ownership. They didn't have time for a rookie QB. I wonder if roles were reversed - and EJ was drafted last year by Oakland and Carr by Buffalo, would the perceptions of the two players be the same? This is a bad time to give up on a young QB who has won games for you, because of the lack of obvious better options out there to replace him. I may be in the minority but I think this is a new start for EJ that he needed. If he can't win in this new system, it can be time to pull the plug. I don't know if Marrone's system was the best for him. He wasn't invested in developing EJ. I understand why they put Orton in when they did and agreed with the move at the time. But EJ is young and has upside. I feel if the offense was tailored more to his strengths he could win with this team. I think Roman is the right guy. Interesting post, Yolo. One factor that I think often gets overlooked between EJ's rookie season and last year (esp. at the start of the season) is the impact of the OL. While he showed promise last year, EJ seemed unable to chuck the ball downfield this year. 2013 OL: Glenn-Legursky/Brown-Wood-Urbik-Pears 2014 OL: Glenn-Richardson/Urbik-Wood-Pears-Henderson Legursky sucked, but IMO 2013 OL > 2014 OL especially in the games EJ played, before Urbik moved into the lineup. It was clear we needed upgrades esp. at LG, but why Marrone thought it a good idea to blow up the entire line and stick linemen who had shown some capability (ie Pears) into positions they had never before played, is a mystery to me. I'm rather glad EJ got the hook and wasn't left to struggle behind that OL. I only hope that we do see a significant improvement in OL this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 My biggest long term issue with E.j is that he has never been an accurate passer. I don't know if that gets fixed. I can see him improving on reading defenses ect but he needs to hit open receivers Agreed. He really regressed, even on short throws. I thought the one positive we would get with a shiny new QB was great accuracy; but that has not been the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don't see carr becoming a "franchise" quarterback. I also have no idea why everyone thinks he was good last season. People were praising him against the bills when he completed something like 45% of his passes. I think it is just people thinking that anything is better than ours.i think he has a great arm. I even started a thread about him before the Raiders game saying I really liked his potential as a rookie. But as you say he was inconsistent and rookie like, with bad plays and flashes. and I think the perception is interesting considering the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I wonder what other team's fans think of EJ... to me it seems like Bills fans are quick to call players busts (hell, even some suggested Watkins is crazy enough), but give other teams players a really long rope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) EJ has played fewer games than Carr because he was either hurt or benched. It's like people want to keep throwing around the fact that he's only started 14 games as if he's just coming off of a rookie season still. EJ had an entire offseason, training camp and pre-season to improve and he failed to do so. There was no difference between the EJ we saw in game 14 in year two than the one we saw in his very first start as a rookie. If people want to twist the stats around and compare a guy going into his third year to one who just finished as a rookie to try and feel better about EJ then go ahead. I think it's silly but have a blast doing it. Put EJ on literally any other team in the league and have him play the exact same way and I can say with certainty that there wouldn't be any Bills fans that thought this kid was a future franchise QB. The bar is getting set lower and lower with this kid. At first he was hyped as a franchise QB with a high ceiling and a ton of talent. Then the bar gets lowered after some poor games to "well he's a project so we have to be really, really patient with him". Now people are just hoping he can be average. Maybe if the bar gets set low enough he can actually meet expectations. Edited February 17, 2015 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladiebla Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) The truth of the matter is that a large portion of the fanbase is a major part of the problems with the QB position. A portion of the fans expect a hall of fame looking QB coming right out of college, they have no patience left to see the position developed. Then as the rookie in question continues to grow through making mistakes, the group gets larger which in turn makes the resistance against the QB larger which translates into more pressure on the rook as well as confidence issues when said things dont work out straight away, which then leads to the benching/cutting of said rook. And then the circle restarts, for another 15 years? Edited February 17, 2015 by bladiebla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The truth of the matter is that a large portion of the fanbase is a major part of the problems with the QB position. A portion of the fans expect a hall of fame looking QB coming right out of college, they have no patience left to see the position developed. Then as the rookie in question continues to grow through making mistakes, the group gets larger which in turn makes the resistance against the QB larger which translates into more pressure on the rook as well as confidence issues when said things dont work out straight away, which then leads to the benching/cutting of said rook. And then the circle restarts, for another 15 years? If the QB suffers from confidence issues because the fans are tired of seeing mediocrity then I guess he's not the QB we're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) The perception of Derek Carr is that he is a franchise QB in the making in Oakland, and the Raiders should build around him. I agree that this is the common perception, but I think people are jumping the gun. I think Oakland saw enough out of Carr to give him more time to give him a chance to prove himself. He wasn't without his warts. But let's face it, what else is Oakland going to say right now? And what better narrative is there for the media to run with? Oakland isn't going to get a shot at Winston or Mariota this draft and Carr showed enough that they won't be looking to trade for a QB or sign one that thinks he can be a starter. They are going into the season doing the only thing they can and that's acting like Carr is their developing franchise QB. And maybe he will be, but that jury is still out. Another part of this equation that has to be considered is how bad Oakland's roster is from top to bottom. Mack aside, there isn't much help on that team for any QB so it is easy for fans and the media to pin any deficiencies on the team and give Carr a pass. That isn't without merit, but I am a "show me" guy. Carr isn't a FQB until he proves it and he's got quite a ways to go. Edited February 17, 2015 by BarleyNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 If the QB suffers from confidence issues because the fans are tired of seeing mediocrity then I guess he's not the QB we're looking for. Who do you propose is guaranteed good enough to get us over the hump, since EJ is not the QB we're looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The truth of the matter is that a large portion of the fanbase is a major part of the problems with the QB position. A portion of the fans expect a hall of fame looking QB coming right out of college, they have no patience left to see the position developed. Then as the rookie in question continues to grow through making mistakes, the group gets larger which in turn makes the resistance against the QB larger which translates into more pressure on the rook as well as confidence issues when said things dont work out straight away, which then leads to the benching/cutting of said rook. And then the circle restarts, for another 15 years? There ya go, it's our fault EJ got benched. If you would have just told us this sooner, we would have all sat around and sang Kumbaya for EJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladiebla Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 If the QB suffers from confidence issues because the fans are tired of seeing mediocrity then I guess he's not the QB we're looking for. You're missing the point. Some fans becomes a large group of fans rather quickly and seems to become so even more quickly with every rook we're giving a shot. As soon as the fan noise get's loud enough (believe it or not but reporters do visit messageboards to get a feel for what sentiment they should be feeding of for their next article/column. Those press articles escalate into directly questioning the QB, to the point where it's as loud as the pressure he has on himself to perform as well as pressure from the organisation. It's the escalation that is fueled when a large portion of the fanbase is being unrealistic. In the end a QB is a human being, it will effect him. There ya go, it's our fault EJ got benched. If you would have just told us this sooner, we would have all sat around and sang Kumbaya for EJ. In a way that's what I'm saying yes, but this goes back to other rooks as well. When was the last time one was given enough time to actually develop into the franchise guy? I was always opposed to the benching of EJ, I rather would have suffered through a year of the troubles the Jets faced. The only thing good about the benching of EJ in retrospect is that now Orton took the flag for a crappy playbook/bad o-oline/rookie receiving core. The bad thing is that they took away a lot of reps that EJ needed badly, both behind the scenes as well as on the field. Now we'll be in year 3 of EJ with him still not being anything other then a rookie but he'll be judged like a veteran for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Who do you propose is guaranteed good enough to get us over the hump, since EJ is not the QB we're looking for? Don't know and that's not even the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladiebla Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Don't know and that's not even the point. Lol, it is the point. Other then an allready established hall of fame kind of QB that still has a few years left in him not a single QB will survive the social media pressure, fan pressure and media pressure because the entire Buffalo area is one unwelcoming hostile place to be as a QB. We need to rally behind our QB instead of being hyper critical into their face. A rookie QB is going to cost you games, same for a rookie RB which will cost you a game as well as rookie WRs which will cost you games. The overly critical environment that is Buffalo with regards to the QB position is making things worse throughout, we need to create an environment that is contributing to the solution. Tweeting all players that your rookie QB should be benched after he made a game deciding mistake gets under the skin of the team, certainly when that is picked up and further escalated by the press and repeated with a second game deciding mistake. I'm not saying we can't discuss the flaws and mistakes made by our rook QBs, but the things is that is not even happening anymore; it's out right bench him yesterday cries from a lot of people and that doesnt go unnoticed. Hardly ever do we discuss the great plays made by the rooks, they get a short mention in gameday threads but that is where it ends. The only way the fans give props is when the QB plays a flawless game and pulls out the win, scratch the win and he'll still hear he needs to be benched. Given a loss the next week, back are the benchcallers. The best a rook QB with the Bills can hope for is silence. At this point I'm nearly convinced that even when we get a QB that brings us the Super Bowl there still will be fans calling for him to be benched and how well the season could have been with QB Magical X. News flash, did you see Aaron Rodgers this year against us? Or better yet Rodgers as the backup of Favre (we would have run that inferior backup QB outta town). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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