Momentoftrth Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 When it rains it pours... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/ “It is nothing but an intent to deceive and they are doing it very well. They’re reporting so fast and going so quickly the defense can’t respond. In fact, the officials can’t keep up.” Dungy believes the officials missed a pair of penalties with this maneuver during the postseason. Dungy said that, if he were coaching the Seahawks, he’d reluctantly tell the players to fake defensive injuries in the Super Bowl to counter New England’s tactic. “It’s something I’m totally against doing but I would certainly tell my players to do it rather than have the NFL issue an apology the next day after we lost a Super Bowl,” Dungy said. Goddell almost has no choice but to put the screws in Kraft Goodell will happily go down with the ship defending Kraft. I just wish Woody Johnson could become Goodells new side chick, so the Jets could get a few breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 it was documented that it even made it to the PA every time against the ravens. i know that takes some of the fun out, but.... unfortunately the ravens knew what was going on but were completely unprepared on how to handle the simple wrinkle. it happens. Carroll won't need to. His DC will recognize when a RB goes up to a ref to declare himself ineligible and the ref indicates the RB is now ineligible, that the RB is indeed ineligible. As NoSaint says, it was announced--particularly on the play where Harbaugh screamed as his pants were still around his ankles. If they were doing the exactly the same thing on "nearly every single play in the 2nd half" (a shameless fabrication), it surely didn't seem to fool the Ravens much. I'm actually not arguing they didn't announce it on the PA. All I'm saying was that 1) the TV viewers didn't see it (in the Championship Game, at least), and 2) by the rules, they don't have to anyway. And it's not a "shameless fabrication" that they did it on nearly every single play in the second half. I told you yesterday: I went through the game on Game Rewind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Carroll won't need to. His DC will recognize when a RB goes up to a ref to declare himself ineligible and the ref indicates the RB is now ineligible, that the RB is indeed ineligible. Something tells me holding the play an extra 3 seconds wouldn't have solved the Ravens problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I'm actually not arguing they didn't announce it on the PA. All I'm saying was that 1) the TV viewers didn't see it (in the Championship Game, at least), and 2) by the rules, they don't have to anyway. And it's not a "shameless fabrication" that they did it on nearly every single play in the second half. I told you yesterday: I went through the game on Game Rewind. They had the RB announce he was ineligible on nearly every play in the second half? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 A few other teams have mentioned this as a possible infraction of the rules. I don't know why the league hasn't changed the enforcement of the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 They had the RB announce he was ineligible on nearly every play in the second half? No. They had at least one (and in two cases, two) linemen in the game as eligible on most of the plays in the second half. (And they had at least one illegal substitution AND illegal formation that should have but wasn't called because of it.) And that's perfectly legal - most people would call it a goal line formation. That's what the rule's actually intended for, to allow the offense to put in an extra blocker for short yardage formations, or for punting. But that's not what the Patriots are doing. Against the Colts, they have linemen coming in and declaring eligible, then going out...and right back in and declaring eligible, repeatedly. Or keeping the eligible lineman out there, sending another one out declared eligible, and lining up the first eligible lineman in an ineligible position (which happened at least once - on a friggin' scoring play, no less.) And there is no reason for that other than to get around the substitution rules. The Patriots are using declarations of eligible/ineligible receivers not to get a specific package in for specific plays or situations - this isn't the old Butch Rolle TD play they're running. They're specifically swapping eligible/ineligible players in and out in order to inhibit the defense's opportunity to substitute. You are clear I'm talking about the AFC Championship game, right? Not the Ravens game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Urlacher on mike and Mike saying "legal" and "not unfair" and if unsure who to cover they should've just checked to cover 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I heard the ineligible eligible RCVR played the next down as an eligible RVCR which is illegal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 No. They had at least one (and in two cases, two) linemen in the game as eligible on most of the plays in the second half. (And they had at least one illegal substitution AND illegal formation that should have but wasn't called because of it.) And that's perfectly legal - most people would call it a goal line formation. That's what the rule's actually intended for, to allow the offense to put in an extra blocker for short yardage formations, or for punting. But that's not what the Patriots are doing. Against the Colts, they have linemen coming in and declaring eligible, then going out...and right back in and declaring eligible, repeatedly. Or keeping the eligible lineman out there, sending another one out declared eligible, and lining up the first eligible lineman in an ineligible position (which happened at least once - on a friggin' scoring play, no less.) And there is no reason for that other than to get around the substitution rules. The Patriots are using declarations of eligible/ineligible receivers not to get a specific package in for specific plays or situations - this isn't the old Butch Rolle TD play they're running. They're specifically swapping eligible/ineligible players in and out in order to inhibit the defense's opportunity to substitute. You are clear I'm talking about the AFC Championship game, right? Not the Ravens game. But Belichick said the Patriots have stayed well clear of crossing the line on any rules for years. One has to simply swallow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 But Belichick said the Patriots have stayed well clear of crossing the line on any rules for years. One has to simply swallow choke on it. fixed it for ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 fixed it for ya Are you implying the Seahawks should fake choking injuries so they can get their substitutions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Are you implying the Seahawks should fake choking injuries so they can get their substitutions? swallowed a skittle wrong there - excuse me for a moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) Are you implying the Seahawks should fake choking injuries so they can get their substitutions? sure why not .... up until the 2 minute before the half and end of the 4th. then you don't get penalized!!! It's what the rules state. ;) Skittles, chunk of grass, fingers to the throat, hit to the groin (why he grabs 'em) ...... Edited January 27, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerbroker Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Belichick stole this formation from another team possiby Detroit and modified by having a normally eligible number report as ineligible. Deceptive? are shifts, men in motion, tackle eligible plays deceptive or good coaching. Get some d backs that scored over 25 on the Wonderlic, who can count to seven and decide which lineman are covered and uncovered. I don't like the Pats but enjoy creative concepts, bring back the fumblerooski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) Urlacher on mike and Mike saying "legal" and "not unfair" and if unsure who to cover they should've just checked to cover 2 Doesn't that kind of make it unfair though if you are forced to run a single defensive formation instead of multiple packages? It would be the same as an offense running 5 WR's and only being able to run goaline formations on defense (extreme I know but basically the concept). Edited January 27, 2015 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 IMO the refs are totally botching the enforcement of the rules, which is to give the defense a reasonable amount of time to identify the other teams substitutions. 2-4 seconds is not even close to reasonable in this instance. If it's the usually extra OL declaring as a TE that's one thing, but a RB declaring I eligible while a OL is simulate pushy declaring eligible across te field, no that's not reasonable. The D does not have time to identify these players and communicate to each other an then (if it's man coverage say ) shift a DB or LB from one side of the field to the other. That requires maybe ten seconds, not 3. It's Bull and the refs are blowing it IMO. The rule will be changed because of this crap. And Weo, maybe the colts would have won more of those games if the Pats hadn't been cheating the whole time? Dungy has a right to be pissed off and he should be. I don't blame him one bit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I make a motion to disallow the play-action pass. And roll outs, naked bootlegs, the stop and go, the flea flicker, the lateral. All of it. It's deception, and it's wrong. To listen to the crybabies who get their butts kicked by NE for 15 years explains exactly why they have gotten beat down by Belichick for the length of this unquestioned historical run that may never be repeated. He's always one step ahead, and until teams (BUFFALO) stop crying about all their "trickery" and start scheming better, the past will most assuredly repeat itself. Getting called a Pats fan in 3....2.....1....... Ok, I have an innovative idea!! We use two footbals! One can be the real football and one will look just like it but will be the 'fake' football. I bet there is no rule stating that only one football can be used!!! Looks like we are in the clear! So now the real football is sneakily given to the fastest we on the team, while te center is given the fake one. They run a toss sweep with the fake football and the wr runs a sprint to the end zone with the real football. The d then pursues and tackles the RB, leaving the wr a clear path to the end zone!!! The RB is tackled, but with a fake football!! tOUCHDOwN BUFFALOOOo!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Doesn't that kind of make it unfair though if you are forced to run a single defensive formation instead of multiple packages? It would be the same as an offense running 5 WR's and only being able to run goaline formations on defense (extreme I know but basically the concept). His point was if you can't identify the eligible men it's your own fault and that the easy solution is run zone instead of man if you aren't able to take responsibility for your man to man assignments (but you should be able to) If realizing your opponent isn't very good at something (like identifying formations and assignments) and you use that against them-- I suppose you could argue it unfair. But it's not. Early on a referenced the Dolphins baffling the pats by splitting their qb out wide as a receiver.... But got told that was crazy talk. IMO the refs are totally botching the enforcement of the rules, which is to give the defense a reasonable amount of time to identify the other teams substitutions. 2-4 seconds is not even close to reasonable in this instance. If it's the usually extra OL declaring as a TE that's one thing, but a RB declaring I eligible while a OL is simulate pushy declaring eligible across te field, no that's not reasonable. The D does not have time to identify these players and communicate to each other an then (if it's man coverage say ) shift a DB or LB from one side of the field to the other. That requires maybe ten seconds, not 3. It's Bull and the refs are blowing it IMO. The rule will be changed because of this crap. And Weo, maybe the colts would have won more of those games if the Pats hadn't been cheating the whole time? Dungy has a right to be pissed off and he should be. I don't blame him one bit!! It was about 10 seconds more than your claim on the shortest gap between announcement and snap. If24 reports ineligible- just ignore him. That's all you have to do. Edited January 28, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I swear the Colts inject estrogen right before games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I seriously doubt the Hawks are going to fall for the substitution gate. They don't play a ton of packages, just line up straight at you so I see the Hawks not falling for it. It would actually be fun to see the Hawks use it to their advantage as less guys to cover at skill positions, or when a skill player lines up inevitable, the DE blows up the RB or WR, and crushes Brady. That will change the Patsies strategy. I want to see them get humiliated this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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