eball Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Maybe it was Marrone, but i doubt it. Not a single guard on this roster deserved to play in the league last year. Chris Williams was the 14th overall pick for Chicago as an OT and got moved to guard because he wasn't any good. After a handful of injury prone, poorly played seasons, he was cut. One season with the OL needy Rams, and then they let him walk in FA. I'm not going to kill Marrone because he couldn't get this guy to perform better than he did. Guy simply isn't a good player. Richardson was a rookie who clearly wasn't ready and Urbik and the rest of lot would be waiver wire fodder if we cut them. His starting RT was a 7th round pick rookie who while talented, was going to take his lumps. Glenn and Woods' jobs get harder when the guys playing next to them can't do their job. Might not be Marrone's fault. No coach in the league was getting this OL to be great. Perhaps a new scheme or attitude, coach, whatever gets more out of them this year, but if it happens it's worth noting the rookies got experience, and a full year with NFL strength and conditioning. If/when this group improves everybody will want to say "see? it was Marrone's fault !" but i'm not sure he wouldn't have had them playing better this season also. So, by all means, let's run it between the tackles. THAT is Marrone's fault, and that's why most of us are glad he's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 What I'd really like to hear Whaley say, and have him prove, that Cyrus realizes he made little progress last season and is working his ass off to try to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 The players that Whaley added to the OL last year were not only not ready but were far from being ready to play. Richardson was overwhelmed when he played and to a lesser degree so was Henderson. Kujo was so far unprepared that a reasonable case could be made that he shouldn't have been on the roster. It doesn't matter what Marrone's scheme or football philosophy was. If a player can't play, or isn't readyto play, that inadequacy trumps any scheme used. If you factor in that the Bills went into the season with a young qb who struggled and was replaced by a very average veteran qb who was fading fast then thedour HC's philosophy shouldn't be expected to overcome the team's shortcomings. I like Whaley a lot. But last year I felt that he did a poor job asembling a commpetitive unit for the offense. The problem wasn't that the players he added to bolster the OL were average or less. The problemwas that the players he made available to the HC were so below par that it created a level of weakness that couldn't even be minimized. Anyone who is half objective and watched the games recognized how atrocious the OL was, especially at the guard positions. In my opinion the unpopular Marrone has received a lot of unwarranted criticism. He got a very flawed and unbalanced team, a .500 caliber of team, to play to its talent level. Overall, the players consistently played hard for him. Just because he is not very likeable doesn't mean that his record should be unfairly diminished. To be fair in evaluating his performance over the past two years he clearly outperformed the brash and tattooed coach who is replacing him. + 1 Honestly, I don't see how Whaley could have managed the 2014 draft re: O linemen any worse.... The thing that I just CAN't get over, is with a line THAT BAD, your 2nd round lick can't even get on the field. That's just horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 + 1 Honestly, I don't see how Whaley could have managed the 2014 draft re: O linemen any worse.... The thing that I just CAN't get over, is with a line THAT BAD, your 2nd round lick can't even get on the field. That's just horrible. Can you comfort yourself with his first, third, 5th, and seventh round pick getting on the field in a very significant way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 A great line coach can take a band of retreads and get them to the Super Bowl. The Giants went to the dance with Glenn Parker and Dusty Zeigler starting, both of whom were cut by the Bills. The Pats always have a great line, despite not having big name talent. Sure. Logan Mankins (gone).....who had ever heard of him before he was drafted? Road graders. That's what we need. I think we have a few of those. Where is Mouse Davis these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NastyNateSoldiers Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I was listening to wgr and Joe B seems to think the Bills are pretty much finished with the Oline. He says we might draft a player late but that's bout it. I think this would be a huge mistake, I guess DW really doesnt put much stock into building our offensive line properly. He has had 2 yrs to fix the guard spot and just can't. I really hope this is not the case and that we will sign another veteran guard that can start right away. Relying on young unproven players like Cyrus & Cyril to develop into fixtures on this team can end up costing DW his job. Seems like DW likes playing with fire hopefully he doesn't get burned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I was listening to wgr and Joe B seems to think the Bills are pretty much finished with the Oline. He says we might draft a player late but that's bout it. I think this would be a huge mistake, I guess DW really doesnt put much stock into building our offensive line properly. He has had 2 yrs to fix the guard spot and just can't. I really hope this is not the case and that we will sign another veteran guard that can start right away. Relying on young unproven players like Cyrus & Cyril to develop into fixtures on this team can end up costing DW his job. Seems like DW likes playing with fire hopefully he doesn't get burned. The last four Super Bowl winners have had below average to plain bad OLs. Just sayin'...there are other ways to get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I was listening to wgr and Joe B seems to think the Bills are pretty much finished with the Oline. He says we might draft a player late but that's bout it. I think this would be a huge mistake, I guess DW really doesnt put much stock into building our offensive line properly. He has had 2 yrs to fix the guard spot and just can't. I really hope this is not the case and that we will sign another veteran guard that can start right away. Relying on young unproven players like Cyrus & Cyril to develop into fixtures on this team can end up costing DW his job. Seems like DW likes playing with fire hopefully he doesn't get burned. joe b doesn't know any more than you do. He could be right (I think Marrone's use of a ZBS last year with the wrong players was worse than the actual players) but he's wrong a lot. He said for a year that RI was blackballed by the league and would never be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I agree with the viewpoint expressed that Whaley, in a polite professional way, seemed to be making several points about Marrone. For example he referenced Rex "taking the shackles off' and "just get me the best players out there" several times. The implication is at times he felt shackled by the previous coaching staff and felt they were being limited to only looking at certain players. In fact he pretty much says so: "Hey, listen, let's just get good players. I'm a matchup guy, I'm a personnel guy. If this guy does this great, we'll put him in position to be successful.' He doesn't want to be, 'We've got to get this 6-5, 260 linebacker. Then that puts restraints on you. And then you get that guy, but maybe he's not as good a player as the 6-2 guy who's 250 but he's a better football player." I don't think he was talking about linebackers. You can tell he has a passion for scouting and evaluating players. I think it's cool because when you see video clips of him in the war room on draft day or often on the field watching from the sidelines, he is Mr. Poker Face. And he looks as if he'd rather clean a toilet than do a media day. But he clearly loves football and loves his job. Whaley has been right on FAs a lot more than he's been wrong for quite a while now. Let the man do his job. He's a scout, he and his team locate talent .. and they seem pretty good at it. Screw the politics. Marrone did his little deal , everyone got what they wanted and he's gone. New days ahead after a long long wait. RIP Ralph. Go Bills. New era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 joe b doesn't know any more than you do. He could be right (I think Marrone's use of a ZBS last year with the wrong players was worse than the actual players) but he's wrong a lot. He said for a year that RI was blackballed by the league and would never be back. Thanks for this. I used to like Joe B but a little more than a year ago (or so) he started "feeling his oats" and has become pretty arrogant. He now thinks he knows a lot more than he actually knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 So, by all means, let's run it between the tackles. THAT is Marrone's fault, and that's why most of us are glad he's gone. The line couldn't block for runs inside or outside the tackles. How do you call plays that involve traps and sweeps when the guards were immobile and not quick enough to react to the defense or adjust to stunts? How does the OC call for a screen pass when you have blockers such as Richardson, Urbik, Pears (forget about Kujo who couldn't even get on the field) who couldn't slide to the outside to block on the screen? The failure of the offense last year had little to do with schemes and everything to do with the low grade talent level on the line and at qb. The organization was willing to take a risk on a troubled player such as Incognito not because we had an abundance of talent on the line but because there was a desperate need to fix a major problem area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The line couldn't block for runs inside or outside the tackles. How do you call plays that involve traps and sweeps when the guards were immobile and not quick enough to react to the defense or adjust to stunts? How does the OC call for a screen pass when you have blockers such as Richardson, Urbik, Pears (forget about Kujo who couldn't even get on the field) who couldn't slide to the outside to block on the screen? Sorry, wrong. Chan took a bad OLine and CJ and produced a solid running game. With almost the same talent Marrone produced crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The line couldn't block for runs inside or outside the tackles. How do you call plays that involve traps and sweeps when the guards were immobile and not quick enough to react to the defense or adjust to stunts? How does the OC call for a screen pass when you have blockers such as Richardson, Urbik, Pears (forget about Kujo who couldn't even get on the field) who couldn't slide to the outside to block on the screen? The failure of the offense last year had little to do with schemes and everything to do with the low grade talent level on the line and at qb. The organization was willing to take a risk on a troubled player such as Incognito not because we had an abundance of talent on the line but because there was a desperate need to fix a major problem area. I'm really trying to figure out why you're such a Marrone supporter, but he stunk at devising anything effective. When you're a head coach whose specialty is allegedly offense and the OL, you can't simply throw your hands in the air and cry out, "there's nothing I can do!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Sorry, wrong. Chan took a bad OLine and CJ and produced a solid running game. With almost the same talent Marrone produced crap. Chan Gailey's with the Bills was 16-32. The record for the last two years was 6-10 and 6-10. Marrone outperformed Gailey as a HC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I was listening to wgr and Joe B seems to think the Bills are pretty much finished with the Oline. He says we might draft a player late but that's bout it. I think this would be a huge mistake, I guess DW really doesnt put much stock into building our offensive line properly. He has had 2 yrs to fix the guard spot and just can't. I really hope this is not the case and that we will sign another veteran guard that can start right away. Relying on young unproven players like Cyrus & Cyril to develop into fixtures on this team can end up costing DW his job. Seems like DW likes playing with fire hopefully he doesn't get burned. So because Joe B says this you are going to be upset with Whaley right now? I read they are going to draft more linemen and sign a couple of FAs.... Feel better now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Chan Gailey's with the Bills was 16-32. The record for the last two years was 6-10 and 6-10. Marrone outperformed Gailey as a HC. You missed tbe point. Chan way outperformed Marrone on the offensive side withe the same or less talent, particularly on the Oline. Marrone outperformed Chan as HC thanks,to two great DC's period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm really trying to figure out why you're such a Marrone supporter, but he stunk at devising anything effective. When you're a head coach whose specialty is allegedly offense and the OL, you can't simply throw your hands in the air and cry out, "there's nothing I can do!" Marrone had a flawed team to work with during his tenure . He had a well staffed defense that played at a high level. Marrone had deficient players on the OL and a mediocre qb who was fading fast. He worked around the limitations he had on offense and kept our team competitive. He didn't give up as you suggest. His teams consistently played hard for him. The limitations he had on the field were a direct result of the limitations he had with the players he had on the roster. The unimaginative and very restrictive playcalling on offense was directly due to the limited abilities of the players, especially on the OL and at qb. In assessing his record he got a fringe playoff team to compete at a fringe playoff level. What more d.o you want? The issue for me isn't whether I am a Marrone supporter or not. The issue is did he do a good job with the players he had to work with? My opinion is yes. Marrone is not a likeable person. So what! Because he isn't a congenial person doesn't mean that it is fair or right to distort his record in order to lash back at him. There is no doubt that Rex Ryan is a much more likeable person than DM. But the reality is that DM outperformed RR over the past two years. The central problem with the Bills during DM's stint had little to do with the quality of coaching so much as it had to do with roster limitations. That is the point. You missed tbe point. Chan way outperformed Marrone on the offensive side withe the same or less talent, particularly on the Oline. Marrone outperformed Chan as HC thanks,to two great DC's period. As a HC Marrone outperformed Gailey. Period! Gailey was fired and Marrne was not. Fitz was far from being a good qb but he was immensely better than the stuck in the mud Orton. The OL that Gailey had was adequate while the OL that Marrone had to work with was beyond being atrocious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I think we need to mention one thing: the way players fit into schemes, regardless of their talents. Kujo, Richardson and even Cordy to a degree are maulers. They're big guys. Reading some x and o chatter from Robert Quinn (who is really insightfull IMHO) he differentiates zone blocking (what Marrone uses) which relies on the ability to shift laterally and gap blocking (Roman) which better fits bigger, heavier guys. This might be a better fit for the young guys to develop, and with RI in now to plug a gap I am willing to see what a different scheme to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Marrone had a flawed team to work with during his tenure . He had a well staffed defense that played at a high level. Marrone had deficient players on the OL and a mediocre qb who was fading fast. He worked around the limitations he had on offense and kept our team competitive. He didn't give up as you suggest. His teams consistently played hard for him. The limitations he had on the field were a direct result of the limitations he had with the players he had on the roster. The unimaginative and very restrictive playcalling on offense was directly due to the limited abilities of the players, especially on the OL and at qb. In assessing his record he got a fringe playoff team to compete at a fringe playoff level. What more d.o you want? The issue for me isn't whether I am a Marrone supporter or not. The issue is did he do a good job with the players he had to work with? My opinion is yes. Marrone is not a likeable person. So what! Because he isn't a congenial person doesn't mean that it is fair or right to distort his record in order to lash back at him. There is no doubt that Rex Ryan is a much more likeable person than DM. But the reality is that DM outperformed RR over the past two years. The central problem with the Bills during DM's stint had little to do with the quality of coaching so much as it had to do with roster limitations. That is the point. And I completely disagree with you. It has been widely reported that the coaching going on with that offense was putrid -- too many hands in the OL pot, for one -- while Marrone left the defense and ST completely in the hands of those coordinators. You say Marrone did a good job because the team "played hard" yet criticize Rex despite the fact his team played the Pats* to within 3 pts in two games and blew out a "better" Miami team in the season finale -- with a markedly inferior roster. I could have coached the Bills last season and gotten them to 9-7. I believe that. I make better in game decisions and I would insist upon creating plays to get my playmakers the ball. Why was Sammy Watkins never used in the way he made a name for himself in college? Marrone did NOT do a good job last year. He did a very average job, and he failed miserably in the one area in which he was supposed to have expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Can you comfort yourself with his first, third, 5th, and seventh round pick getting on the field in a very significant way? Not really: I'm one of those that hated the pick, having to give up 2 first rounders. Not the way to build a team. When was the last time ANYBODY gave a 2 1st round picks for a WR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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