MDH Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) You are forgetting something: Money. As someone pointed out upthread, Dareus will very soon begin eating up more than $10 million year of his team's salary cap. Whichever rookie you are talking about will be much cheaper for his first four years. And Dareus, while still young, has four more years of NFL wear and tear on his body than said rookie. In case you hadn't noticed, linemen don't last forever. But the biggest problem with the trade, of course, is that the GM of either Tennessee or Tampa Bay, both of whom need a QB pretty badly, would be immediately fired, tarred and then feathered if they traded a chance to draft one of the two best QB prospects since Andrew Luck for a defensive lineman, especially one who has had only one truly outstanding season. It ain't happening. You get what you pay for. One or two guys in the entire draft will, right out of the gate, play at the level Dareus is currently playing at. So yeah, they're cheaper but they'll likely take years to develop. By that time they'll cost more money... I also highly dispute your claim that Marriota is one of the best prospects since Luck. Hes more of the same. Winston, on the other hand, has all the tools but who knows where his head is at. He might be an all time great but he could be out of the league in a few years. He's worth the risk though, but Marriota is not. Some desperate team will take a chance on him though, I'm glad the Bills won't be one the one. Edited January 12, 2015 by MDH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filthymcnasty08 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 -we complain that we do not draft players worth the position in which we drafted them -when we do, we look to get rid of them ok, then. carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 You get what you pay for. You could not be more wrong about that. One of the reasons for Seattle's dominance for the last few years is that they had a franchise QB on the roster for less than $1 million/year. Same with SF prior to this year. Conversely, Brees's contract is a major reason that the Saints are in deep trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I say Rexy is such a good salesman maybe he coaxes Orton out of retirement..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 You could not be more wrong about that. One of the reasons for Seattle's dominance for the last few years is that they had a franchise QB on the roster for less than $1 million/year. Same with SF prior to this year. Conversely, Brees's contract is a major reason that the Saints are in deep trouble. Not wrong at all. Yeah, a few guys will be bargains for a team and help them a lot. Most of the guys won't be. And your example wasn't a high draft pick, so it's not even what was being discussed to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I also highly dispute your claim that Marriota is one of the best prospects since Luck. Hes more of the same. Dispute it all you want. Mariota will be the first player taken in the draft and there won't be much debate about it. And based on what I've seen, I believe he will be a great NFL quarterback. And even if there is only a 50/50 or 40/60 chance that Mariota becomes a star, then the chance to draft him is still worth more than any D-lineman in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Biggest issue with this is that our D is built to win NOW.... I have loved Marriota since his first snaps at Oregon but neither him or Winston are ready to lead a playoff charge. We need a vet QB. Even more so with Rex in the fold. He's got a better D than he ever had in NY. If he brings in Roman to be OC, i hope his ties to Iupati may help us recruit him. If we sign a FA like Iupati, and let the our other young guys battle for the other guard spot and hopefully draft another. Our OL would be much improved. Then, we swing a deal for a QB like Cutler, draft a mid round RB to fill void if Spiller leaves. (nowadays its easy to find mid round RB that can produce big) and we have at least a middle of the pack O, to go along with a D that is top 5 (possibly even BETTER!). When you say "QB like Cutler" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean Cutler? Or do you mean someone else? If you mean someone else, could you please say who? If you mean Cutler, could you please explain why you feel Cutler is the missing link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Not wrong at all. Yeah, a few guys will be bargains for a team and help them a lot. Most of the guys won't be. And your example wasn't a high draft pick, so it's not even what was being discussed to begin with. Wilson is an extreme example, but any star first or second year performer, no matter how high they are drafted and no matter what position, is a huge bargain under the current collective bargaining agreement. That goes double if the player is a QB. At any rate, teams who have traded high draft picks for "established" players have inevitably been burned. That's why it doesn't happen very often any more. If anything, draft picks are undervalued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Dispute it all you want. Mariota will be the first player taken in the draft and there won't be much debate about it. And based on what I've seen, I believe he will be a great NFL quarterback. And even if there is only a 50/50 or 40/60 chance that Mariota becomes a star, then the chance to draft him is still worth more than any D-lineman in the league. There's less than a 40/60 chance he becomes a star. How many star QBs are there currently in the NFL? 7? How many sure things became busts? Will we want him benched after 14 games if isn't a pro bowler right away? Way too variables to justify trading away a potential generational DT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JÂy RÛßeÒ Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Trade Dareus Stopped reading right there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I say Rexy is such a good salesman maybe he coaxes Orton out of retirement..... Dear Lord, I hope not. Let Orton turtle with his kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 There's less than a 40/60 chance he becomes a star. How many star QBs are there currently in the NFL? 7? How many sure things became busts? Will we want him benched after 14 games if isn't a pro bowler right away? Way too variables to justify trading away a potential generational DT. So you think Tampa would make the trade then, if the Bills offered, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 So you think Tampa would make the trade then, if the Bills offered, right? Nope and they shouldn't. It's a coin flip for them but they need to take the risk. All they are spending is one draft pick. We would have to spend a ton more after we just spend a 1st on QB that some want to give up on after 14 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I think the OP may just play a little bit too much Madden in career mode. The notion that the Bills should trade arguably their best player and a perennial pro-bowler for a draft pick is ludicrous. I understand the desire to have a quarterback not named EJ Manuel. I don't agree with that necessarily, but trading up to draft a QB in one of the weakest QB draft classes in the last 20 years has "moron" written all over it. I'm a big fan of Marcus Mariota, but he's not the next coming of Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning. Winston has better pocket presence than Mariota, but he absolutely crumbled against the ducks. He's a mental midget to boot that has too much off the field baggage. From the pellet guns, to allegations of rape, to stealing crab legs and Burger King, the kid isn't right in the head, and certainly not worthy of trying to trade up to get him. Based on the games I've watched, Dareus is the key to the defense. I wouldn't even consider trading him for a veteran QB like Cutler. In terms of Suh, I really don't get the attraction. He's a really talented player no doubt, but I don't think he's better than Dareus. Plus, Dareus is under contract through this season. Suh is either going to get the franchise tag for $26.7 million from Detroit or more likely negotiate a huge payday (think $100+ million with $40 million guaranteed) either back with the Lions or with a new team. Dareus is only 24 years old compared to Suh at 28 to boot. Sorry, but I would keep Dareus all day. Last and maybe the most important point here is that EJ has a grand total of 14 starts in his career. Are we essentially ready to trade one star college quarterback for another that played in the exact same system for the same coach on the same team? My guess is that if Ryan can live with the likes of Mark Sanchez and Geno Smith, that he's probably going to give EJ this next year to see what he can do. After that, gloves will be off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't think Winston or Marota will last in the NFL. Winston bc I just don't trust him and Marota bc he needs to learn a passing tree and may not be given the time he needs. We need a QB but I don't think trading Dareus makes it a done deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It ain't gonna happen. But really, if we run with the OP's scenario and assume Tampa would do something like that, of course you should take it. Dareus will be paid market rates, certainly after 2015. That means from a pure economist's point of view there's not really any value in him at the margin. As the OP said, let Dareus go, sign Suh, or go cheaper and sign Terrence Knighton or something. You are paying market value rates whichever way. The value of the first pick, particularly since the new CBA came in and the Sam Bradford signing bonuses went away, is that you get a potentially great player at way, way below market rates for several years. That's one reason Seattle has been so good -- not only is Russell Wilson already a fantastic QB, but he's a fantastic QB who's been (until now) playing for a ridiculously low salary -- money that they've applied wisely to other positions. So while it's easy to dismiss these far-fetched trade proposals, I usually find these "hell no, Dareus [or Mario, or substitute your favorite player] is great right now" responses equally poorly thought out. That's the rub. Potential. The premise is based on the 'potential' of acquiring a great player with a submarket rookie contract. That's great...but if you're wrong..... 'poorly thought out' will be the least of the critiques. If I'm trading away a 24 year old all pro, I want more 'guarantee' than Marcus Mariota's potential. Hence, I said I'd only do it for a proven NFL QB. Trade a 'big salary' for a 'big salary' so it is plausible (financially). I also acknowledged that wouldn't happen as no sane NFL team would trade a top 10 qb. The Russell Wilson story is great...but it was all luck. Seattle has benefitted but they didn't plot is out that way. It's luck. To take your financial premise to the extreme, should Seattle now avoid the contract extension and trade Wilson to move up to acquire Mariota? They could then sign a veteran QB on the cheap as well?? You also can't presume we'll just sign Suh, or anyone else for that matter. Regardless, Suh will cost more....which kind of disrupts your 'no value in Dareus at the margin' premise and your salary cap savings. You're now paying the #1 pick (granted it's easier now than 10 yrs ago) plus Suh? Or you're paying the #1 pick plus a lesser player (Knighton). In the latter, you've given up value at DT and who knows what you have at QB. I never said I wouldn't trade Dareus. I just want NFL tested value back for him. The two sentences that I bolded are key. Potential and the 'value' of the number one pick? If your unproven college player is a flop....I'd say the pick is worthless versus Dareus. Just my 2 pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kota Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 No thanks. You want to trade a proven Pro Bowl Player for an unknown player in the NFL and then pay 20 million a year for a guy that is a few stomps away from suspensions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 This is a little out there and would require some work from Whaley, but would you make this move? 1. Trade Dareus to Tampa or Tennessee for pick 1 or 2. (Dareus is a former #3 pick who is proven himself recently) 2. Take Mariota or Winston pending what pick you get. 3. Pick up "Donkey Kong" Suh through Free Agency to replace Dareus. The above may not be able to happen as both Tampa and Tennessee are in dire need for a QB. However, Oakland may deal their 3rd pick if one of the 2 above slip for some reason. Winston is a character risk and Mariota looks good but those Running QBs aren't doing well in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 What prevents Tampa from keeping the high pick and paying Suh to go there? (if Suh hits FA, which I doubt he will) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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