Whaley will head coaching search

[Kirby Jackson]

I guess only time will tell, but wouldn't you rather have one football man, reporting to another football man?

It really makes no difference as long as they are on the same page. The issue isn't reporting structure it is relationship issue.

[Best Player Available]

So if I understand correctly, having the Pegulae involved in hiring the HC, the face of the franchise, means they are "meddling."

 

I don't buy that. Nor do I think any comparison to previous ownership is valid.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

No doubt the QB question is a concern to a prospective HC. I'd like to think our defense mitigates that on some level.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Nice try I was responding as you know to your post #204. in which you stated " I strongly doubt any head coach has been hired without the owners direct involvement on some level" Probably true then you said "Seriously what is the downside?" Well history shows there can be plenty of downside. Unless you have a crystal ball and I know you do not.

 

There was no mention to El Pegul. at all in your post. My response was there can be downside as the Ralph era proved on more than one occasion. It's really that simple. Since comparisons to previous ownerships Bills or other teams (Cowgirls, and redskins come to mind) are absolutely valid. Why wouldn't they be? the El Pegul clan has ZERO history as NFL owners. So how do you conclude there could not be downside? Based on what? Their ownership of a NHL team? Does not work that way. I stand by my comments.

[NoSaint]

 

 

That's what the article says as well. I just didn't put it down because it's not reporting to the owner. Well it says "answers to Russ Brandon".

 

 

Hoping for more? or less?

2 of them melted down, 1 of them required a front office restructure in just this season, and ones the Cowboys.....

[Lurker]

I guess only time will tell, but wouldn't you rather have one football man, reporting to another football man?

I'm with you on this.

 

If Pegs were Art Ronney II, then by all means...have the HC report to him. But as I understand it, he's not even that big a football fan (relative to hockey), let alone well versed in running a sports team. Even Ralph, for all his faults, was a better 'football man' (sigh).

 

If Terry and Kim want to interview then next HC, fine. But if they have to settle a football decision between the HC and GM, that's likely to be nothing more than a coin flip for the immediate future.

[Kirby Jackson]

I'm with you on this.

 

If Pegs were Art Ronney II, then by all means...have the HC report to him. But as I understand it, he's not even that big a football fan (relative to hockey), let alone well versed in running a sports team. Even Ralph, for all his faults, was a better 'football man' (sigh).

 

If Terry and Kim want to interview then next HC, fine. But if they have to settle a football decision between the HC and GM, that's likely to be nothing more than a coin flip for the immediate future.

If the roles are clearly defined there shouldn't be any tiebreakers. For example, if Whaley has final say on the 53 man roster it's his decision. If the coach has the final say on who dresses it's his decision. It's easier said than done but by no means impossible. This holds especially true if the GM is hiring someone that views the game similarly to himself.

[Wayne Cubed]

2 of them melted down, 1 of them required a front office restructure in just this season, and ones the Cowboys.....

 

 

I'd be more worried about if the coach was in charge of player personnel. Thats tough to do, there are even fewer of those.

If the roles are clearly defined there shouldn't be any tiebreakers. For example, if Whaley has final say on the 53 man roster it's his decision. If the coach has the final say on who dresses it's his decision. It's easier said than done but by no means impossible. This holds especially true if the GM is hiring someone that views the game similarly to himself.

 

Tougher for a coach to be the coach and in charge of player personnel, IMO. There's only a couple of those in the NFL.

[Lurker]

This holds especially true if the GM is hiring someone that views the game similarly to himself.

For sure, that will be the key. I suspect it also argues for a younger, less set in his way guy (i.e, not Shanny) who can be a contemporary, rather than a Marrone type.

 

I still prefer a strong GM org chart (with the owner simply signing the checks), but that looks like it's not in the cards for a while...

[LabattBlue]

For sure, that will be the key. I suspect it also argues for a younger, less set in his way guy (i.e, not Shanny) who can be a contemporary, rather than a Marrone type.

 

I still prefer a strong GM org chart (with the owner simply signing the checks), but that looks like it's not in the cards for a while...

At least one other person agrees with me.

[Rico]

The Pegulas have no other choice than to play the hand they've just been dealt. There's no one on-board truly qualified to make the bottom-line decision. Up until a few days ago, a football 'czar' was coming in to evaluate the organization. It appears that's not happening now, at least not soon enough. Whaley has done some very good things, but he's also made serious mistakes... he deserves to stay this year, but he's not ready to be given the keys to the car. Brandon is a proven chump who's responsible for hiring the last coach & not being able to manage the Marrone-Whaley relationship, this mess is clearly in his lap. With no one there that he can 100% trust, I don't blame Pegs for being highly involved in the hiring process at all.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Rico

[Kelly the Dog]

I guess only time will tell, but wouldn't you rather have one football man, reporting to another football man?

 

Please, someone explain to me how the new coach reporting to Pegula who has ZERO NFL experience is a better idea than reporting to the GM?

My perception is why does it matter? If he is going to the owner to make demands it is still going to be decided between the GM and the owner. The HC and GM have to work together on a daily basis. If things work well between them, it doesnt matter whether the coach reports to the owner or not. If things sour between them, they are going to be fighting anyway before the coach reports to the owner.

 

I'm trying to think of a disadvantage. If a coach thinks the GM is getting bad players and reports to the GM and the GM says you have good enough players, the HC is not going to say, "Oh, okie dokie." He's going to call the owner and say "Lets get together and talk. I have a problem." And the owner is going to settle it with whatever side he agrees with.

[OldTimer1960]

http://www.thephinsider.com/2014/1/25/5343964/nfl-power-structures-who-really-runs-a-team

I stand corrected from my earlier post. This structure is much more common than I thought. Still, seems like it would create more tension between head coach and GM if they are both on the same level. It will be very important to have cooperative personalities in both roles. Whaley strikes me as cooperative, in spite of what Marrone has implied.

 

FWIW, I never had any problem with the Pegula's taking part in the interviews. I wouldn't expect them to make the final decision, but they are entitled to meet the candidates, give any input that they seem fit and have final approval (mostly as a rubber stamp)

Edited January 3, 2015 by OldTimer1960

[LabattBlue]

My perception is why does it matter? If he is going to the owner to make demands it is still going to be decided between the GM and the owner. The HC and GM have to work together on a daily basis. If things work well between them, it doesnt matter whether the coach reports to the owner or not. If things sour between them, they are going to be fighting anyway before the coach reports to the owner.

 

I'm trying to think of a disadvantage. If a coach thinks the GM is getting bad players and reports to the GM and the GM says you have good enough players, the HC is not going to say, "Oh, okie dokie." He's going to call the owner and say "Lets get together and talk. I have a problem." And the owner is going to settle it with whatever side he agrees with.

So the owner who knows next to nothing about building an NFL team is going to settle a dispute between coach and GM? Sounds like a solid plan to me.

[Kelly the Dog]

So the owner who knows next to nothing about building an NFL team is going to settle a dispute between coach and GM? Sounds like a solid plan to me.

No, he is going to say the GM is in charge of the roster and the coach is in charge of who plays on that roster in all probability. If the coach makes a compelling argument, maybe he is going to side with the coach. What is the possible outcome if he goes to the GM first? The exact same scenario.

[LabattBlue]

No, he is going to say the GM is in charge of the roster and the coach is in charge of who plays on that roster in all probability. If the coach makes a compelling argument, maybe he is going to side with the coach. What is the possible outcome if he goes to the GM first? The exact same scenario.

No. In my scenario, the GM is in charge of the coach, and he either agrees or disagrees with the coach. He's the boss, his call. At least it would be an informed decision instead of Kim & Terry Pegula scratching their hands and flipping a coin.

 

We'll agree to disagree.

Edited January 3, 2015 by LabattBlue

[Wayne Cubed]

No. In my scenario, the GM is in charge of the coach, and he either agrees or disagrees with the coach. He's the boss, his call. At least it would be an informed decision instead of Kim & Terry Pegula scratching their hands and flipping a coin.

 

We'll agree to disagree.

 

Why would they scratch their heads? It's not like a coach would go to an owner with "x's and o's" disagreements He wouldn't even go to the GM for that. GM's employ coaches to run their philosophy, they entrust in them. The only disagreements come with player personnel, which the GM is in charge of, for the most part.

 

GM's are in charge of player personnel.

 

Coach are in charge of choosing the roster and implementing their philosophies.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Wayne Cubed

[Drifter]

That's because Doug Whaley will not be the GM of this team for very long into the future and the new coach will not be tied to him in any way.

I think the explanation is simpler than we think. Whaley has said in interviews that his preference is to be free to scout players. Having a coach report to the owner takes something off Whaley's plate allowing him to do what he thinks will help the organization the most.

[thewildrabbit]

 

 

Yea, yea I know you think OL is your schtick so you know after 1 year of drafting 3 OL that Whaley has done a "very, very poor job"? You mean like that fact that he got a starting RT in the 7th round of the draft? Wow, what a crap job he did there. And I guess you've already made your mind up about Richardson and Kouandijio, their collective careers are done in the NFL after 1 season, who knew. Obviously OL don't struggle at first adjusting to the pro game. How long did it take Andre Smith to becoming one of the best RT's in the NFL? Oh that's right, it took 2 seasons.

 

 

And I find this part even more odd. You've watched him over the years huh? According to your favorite football analytics site PFF, Urbik was the 8th best RG. Let's repeat that so it sinks in, the 8th best RG. What does St. Doug do, well he lets his stubbornness get the better of him and benches Urbik in favor of Erik freaking Pears. Is Urbik a good LG? No, he's pretty average but he is certainly an above average RG. The benching of Urbik is mind boggling.

 

Lets not forget Glenn is now regressing at LT but I suppose that's because poor ole' Doug is just playing the hand he was dealt.

 

Or wait, why doesn't Doug realize that maybe his line has some weak spots and change up the way it's run? Or coach up some guys seeing as he is a former OL and coached the OL for many years.

First of all just because Henderson was a starter at RT for Buffalo doesn't mean he did a good job at that position all year. I highly doubt he even starts on the better teams. He just happened to play about 1000% better then the #2 pick, and If those picks were reversed I doubt Kouandjio is even on the roster at this time.

 

Perhaps the current young players on the roster can be coached up to an acceptable talent level, and that remains to be seen. From what I have seen I have serious doubts.

 

The only reason I ever mention PFF is because it sometimes helps others understand whats going on with the line. I don't hold them up as the end all, be all holy grail of stats or player analysis. In fact, I feel the sole reason Urbik was graded anywhere near respectability at any time was because of the offensive scheme he was involved in. In Gailey's offense Fitz was able to get the ball out in 2.2 seconds which mostly negated any pass rush against him, and that real spread out offense is a big reason why Spiller did so well running. That grade for Urbik had to be in pass blocking because the man is one of the worst run blockers in the league, and always has been.

 

The benching of Urbik was justified to see if Richardson could become a viable starter, and as bad as he played I still never saw him let a DT run him five yards into the backfield on a run play.

 

In Glenn's case, did you ever stop and think that perhaps some of the players are playing with injuries, and playing next to really bad players doesn't help.

 

 

I have acknowledged that Doug Whaley has done a near brilliant job with the defensive side of the ball in player acquisitions, trades. At the same time I'm not such a homer I don't see that he has done a very, very poor job with the offensive side the last two years. How any knowledgeable football man could allow three rookie QB's to play behind last years line is unconscionable to me, and this years line was worse.

[Kelly the Dog]

No. In my scenario, the GM is in charge of the coach, and he either agrees or disagrees with the coach. He's the boss, his call. At least it would be an informed decision instead of Kim & Terry Pegula scratching their hands and flipping a coin.

 

We'll agree to disagree.

I understand what you mean totally. And if it were my team I would agree and have the coach report to the GM. But that said, if that was mine or your team, and the coach had a major problem with the GM, and couldn't get anywhere with him, that coach would go to the owner, and the owner would then have to make a decision. It's likely he would back his GM. But who knows what the real issue was. Maybe the coach was right (in this hypothetical case). All I mean is it doesnt really change anything. The coach going to the owner first isn't going to make the owner side with him without going to the GM and getting his side, nor is it going to change anything. If the coach and GM don't get along to this degree, they don't get along, and the owner is going to be involved.

[Lurker]

If the coach and GM don't get along to this degree, they don't get along, and the owner is going to be involved.

In that case, hopefully, by firing one of them then. Which is perhaps what Pegs did (knowingly or unknowingly) by not caving to Marrone's power play....

[RuntheDamnBall]

First of all just because Henderson was a starter at RT for Buffalo doesn't mean he did a good job at that position all year. I highly doubt he even starts on the better teams. He just happened to play about 1000% better then the #2 pick, and If those picks were reversed I doubt Kouandjio is even on the roster at this time.

 

Perhaps the current young players on the roster can be coached up to an acceptable talent level, and that remains to be seen. From what I have seen I have serious doubts.

 

The only reason I ever mention PFF is because it sometimes helps others understand whats going on with the line. I don't hold them up as the end all, be all holy grail of stats or player analysis. In fact, I feel the sole reason Urbik was graded anywhere near respectability at any time was because of the offensive scheme he was involved in. In Gailey's offense Fitz was able to get the ball out in 2.2 seconds which mostly negated any pass rush against him, and that real spread out offense is a big reason why Spiller did so well running. That grade for Urbik had to be in pass blocking because the man is one of the worst run blockers in the league, and always has been.

 

The benching of Urbik was justified to see if Richardson could become a viable starter, and as bad as he played I still never saw him let a DT run him five yards into the backfield on a run play.

 

In Glenn's case, did you ever stop and think that perhaps some of the players are playing with injuries, and playing next to really bad players doesn't help.

 

 

I have acknowledged that Doug Whaley has done a near brilliant job with the defensive side of the ball in player acquisitions, trades. At the same time I'm not such a homer I don't see that he has done a very, very poor job with the offensive side the last two years. How any knowledgeable football man could allow three rookie QB's to play behind last years line is unconscionable to me, and this years line was worse.

If you're to be believed, basically everybody sucks or was hurt. Seriously, we have seen NFL level play from these guys in spots... not all of them, but most. I think good coaches can get the best out of average players. It begins by not shuffling everybody around and screwing with chemistry. That's something that I couldn't believe Marrone, a former lineman, got wrong this spring and summer.