BackInDaDay Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) My feeling on the QB position is very simple: you need a franchise guy there, otherwise the other flaws on the team will be magnified. With a franchise QB at the helm, teams can get away without being great in other areas and still make the playoffs and have a chance to win. Without one, you need to be nearly perfect in every other area. i'm thinking that you're definition of 'franchise QB' is a guy who has the intelligence to understand why the coaches want him to attack where he's attacking, the instincts to correctly process coverages and pressures in a split second, and the physical ability to deliver the ball accurately and on time. such a guy would make a welcome addition - no doubt. i like Whaley. i think he's resourceful - but that's a tough 'ask' for 2015. i'm looking forward to your continuing analysis of both FA and collegiate O linemen who can help a flawed QB execute a flawed offense. Edited December 29, 2014 by BackInDaDay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickelCity Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Too bad about the retirement. He was an asset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 i'm thinking that you're definition of 'franchise QB' is a guy who has the intelligence to understand why the coaches want him to attack where he's attacking, the instincts to correctly process coverages and pressures in a split second, and the physical ability to deliver the ball accurately and on time. such a guy would make a welcome addition - no doubt. i like Whaley. i think he's resourceful - but that's a tough 'ask' for 2015. i'm looking forward to your continuing analysis of both FA and collegiate O linemen who can help a flawed QB execute a flawed offense. It is indeed a tough ask for 2015...about the best you can hope for is a guy like Sam Bradford, who is a solid passer that hasn't had the weapons to work with in the NFL. I'm starting to get into the thick of the 2015 class now, so hopefully I'll have some good stuff to post as the off-season progresses. Right now I'm through about 3 QBs and that's it...lots to do though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Ya know, looking back on Orton he reminds me of Billy Joe Hobert. Hobert would have done what Orton did for us production wise. Its a shame that we had no choice but to stay with Orton when we should have given him the Hobert treatment. Listening to the comments of the Bills, many are saying they didn't expect him to make this announcement so soon or at all. Fred Jackson saying he wants to talk to Orton to understand why is interesting to me. I think Jackson cannot understand why someone would quit football. Fred Jackson has heart. Orton has a kitty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
respk Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 The Bills no longer have any viable NFL QBs on the roster. Orton would've been serviceable as a backup. Now the Bills have to find a starter and a backup. The cupboard is bare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I don't think anyone here knows if this is actually true. He may be smart; he may not be. I just don't think anyone has any basis to make a judgment. It certainly can't be based on his academic career. He went to a standard-issue bigtime football factory that coddles its players to the nth degree (which is well documented), and he majored in communication. No offense to communication majors, but it's not a particularly hard major. Beyond that, I don't know much about his analytical skills at all. And I don't think anyone else does either. He does seem like a decent human being, however. That's a good point, Dave. But "smart" means a lot of different things depending on who you ask, and what kind of intelligence matters for the task at hand. IQ type measurements miss many types of intelligence, but place a premium on others. I don't know if EJ is adept at high level calculus, nor do I think it matters. I can only go on the reports I hear, and the way he carries himself when their is a reporter, or camera, in front of him. Was Jim Kelly smart? I never gave the guy much credit in the brains dept, but he could read defenses and call plays at the lines. Then again, as his skills declined, he didn't seem to be able to use his brains to adjust the way he played (as Peyton seems to be doing fairly successfully). EJ seems smart enough to stay out of the partying spotlight that gets so many players in trouble. He seems smart enough to say the right things after a loss, and after his benching. He certainly seems smart enough to understand it matters how you act on the sidelines even when you aren't playing. (The guy seems to be paying close attention during the game, to his credit.) But does he understand the playbook well and quickly? Can he read and break down a defense? I can't tell you and I don't think he's been given a real opportunity to show those skills. But again, the coaches and fellow players seem to think so. If he gets another chance (and again, I'm rooting for him) I hope the OL is a bit better. But mostly I hope he is forced to EARN the job, and play with the full package. No more coddling. It's year three. It isn't as if he has 3-years playing experience, but he has had three years with the playbook and with the team. He should get the opportunity to use all of his skills. Make it or fail based on that. I don't get the Orton hate on here. He was exactly as advertised and what they hoped that he would be. He was an average veteran QB that gave a team with playoff talent a shot at the playoffs. Had he played all year they may have still missed the playoffs but would have won the Houston game. His stats extrapolated 64.2% completion, 3,772 yards, 22.5 TDs & 12.5 INTs. That would have been on the high end of the range that we all would have expected from Orton or EJ. Perfectly put. He was a career journeyman. A solid veteran #2. Had he been much better than that, he wouldn't have been available. He'd have been starting somewhere. I thought he was actually a bit better in the skill set, than I thought he would be. But he disappointed me with some of his decisions. I thought a guy with his experience would be able to get rid of the ball on many of the sacks he took. I've come to the conclusion that was his real downfall in the NFL (if you can call a solid journeyman career a "downfall"). But he helped right the ship. I think the Bills were a bit lost--not just at the QB position--and bringing in a stable vet helped get them back on track, a bit. But once they leveled off from their downward spiral, he had given pretty much what he had. That was the level of success you get with a guy like that (with a line like that, and with offensive play calling like that). In fact, they exceeded what I would expect from that combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackInDaDay Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 It is indeed a tough ask for 2015...about the best you can hope for is a guy like Sam Bradford, who is a solid passer that hasn't had the weapons to work with in the NFL. I'm starting to get into the thick of the 2015 class now, so hopefully I'll have some good stuff to post as the off-season progresses. Right now I'm through about 3 QBs and that's it...lots to do though. you da man! always enjoy your walking us through the prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 That's a good point, Dave. But "smart" means a lot of different things depending on who you ask, and what kind of intelligence matters for the task at hand. IQ type measurements miss many types of intelligence, but place a premium on others. I don't know if EJ is adept at high level calculus, nor do I think it matters. I can only go on the reports I hear, and the way he carries himself when their is a reporter, or camera, in front of him. Was Jim Kelly smart? I never gave the guy much credit in the brains dept, but he could read defenses and call plays at the lines. Then again, as his skills declined, he didn't seem to be able to use his brains to adjust the way he played (as Peyton seems to be doing fairly successfully). EJ seems smart enough to stay out of the partying spotlight that gets so many players in trouble. He seems smart enough to say the right things after a loss, and after his benching. He certainly seems smart enough to understand it matters how you act on the sidelines even when you aren't playing. (The guy seems to be paying close attention during the game, to his credit.) But does he understand the playbook well and quickly? Can he read and break down a defense? I can't tell you and I don't think he's been given a real opportunity to show those skills. But again, the coaches and fellow players seem to think so. If he gets another chance (and again, I'm rooting for him) I hope the OL is a bit better. But mostly I hope he is forced to EARN the job, and play with the full package. No more coddling. It's year three. It isn't as if he has 3-years playing experience, but he has had three years with the playbook and with the team. He should get the opportunity to use all of his skills. Make it or fail based on that. Excellent points. I'm rooting for him too. That said, I don't think the coaches have full faith in his ability to run the offense. They dumbed it down for him late last year because they thought he couldn't handle it. Then they benched him this year. That may simply be a product of him being a rookie. Anyway, I hope he's smart. I just don't know based on what I've seen and read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 There goes the winningest Bills QB in a decade . . . and now we start over. Who of us wouldn't retire at age 32 if we could? We wish you the best Uncle Rico, you gave us some good moments and some hope. I don't get the Orton hate on here. He was exactly as advertised and what they hoped that he would be. He was an average veteran QB that gave a team with playoff talent a shot at the playoffs. Had he played all year they may have still missed the playoffs but would have won the Houston game. His stats extrapolated 64.2% completion, 3,772 yards, 22.5 TDs & 12.5 INTs. That would have been on the high end of the range that we all would have expected from Orton or EJ. THIS !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Excellent points. I'm rooting for him too. That said, I don't think the coaches have full faith in his ability to run the offense. They dumbed it down for him late last year because they thought he couldn't handle it. Then they benched him this year. That may simply be a product of him being a rookie. Anyway, I hope he's smart. I just don't know based on what I've seen and read. Fair enough, Dave. They certainly didn't have full faith in him last year, as he was never intended to start his rookie season. This year he was handed the job with no real competition. Plus the entire offense fell apart. He wasn't ready to turn that tide, Perhaps he never will be. But it's far too early to write the guy off completely, as many here have already done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Seems like about a year ago he told Dallas he was retiring too. He got himself released from a contract and then graciously submitted to being paid $5,000,000 for one year's services by someone else. Orton is a smarter, more intellectual guy than most football players are. He has a background as a liberal and progressive who respects worker's rights. He was able to work in / manipulate the system to have more personal choice than most players are able to have. For those reasons, I respect him as a man who makes reasonable choices. I don't think much of him as a football player. If think if he wasn't planning to retire, and do so with all his body parts working properly, he would have put himself more at risk to try to help his team win. I posted recently that he's been playing like a wuss lately, and I think the retirement explains things perfectly. More than most players, you have to think that Orton's view of things is he's an employee and is in constant negotiation with his employer. If he can get a better deal from some other employer, he wants to be able to get that deal. The league is built on multi-year contracts but Orton has been making things work out his way for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I don't get the Orton hate on here. He was exactly as advertised and what they hoped that he would be. He was an average veteran QB that gave a team with playoff talent a shot at the playoffs. Had he played all year they may have still missed the playoffs but would have won the Houston game. His stats extrapolated 64.2% completion, 3,772 yards, 22.5 TDs & 12.5 INTs. That would have been on the high end of the range that we all would have expected from Orton or EJ. I agree we got exactly what we should have expected from Orton, but he's not an average NFL QB. He's BELOW average. I'd put him in the middle of the 3rd quartile, probably 20 better than him and 10-11 worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I agree we got exactly what we should have expected from Orton, but he's not an average NFL QB. He's BELOW average. I'd put him in the middle of the 3rd quartile, probably 20 better than him and 10-11 worse. He is better than an average NFL QB, if you count ALL the QBs in the league. You are probably thinking only of starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 He is better than an average NFL QB, if you count ALL the QBs in the league. You are probably thinking only of starters. BELOW average NFL starter. I'd say he's an above average NFL backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC in St. Louis Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Kyle Orton looks like he's hung over, which is fine. So am I. I don't think he has ever had a loyalty to any team. He's a true independent. He came in and gave it his best shot, and now that the season is over, he's got another few million in the bank, which makes for a nice retirement. At 32. I'd retire at 32 if I wasn't 60 right now. I don't think he'll be a Bills fan. He doesn't even strike me as a football fan. He did his job. We will miss his mediocrity, occasional great throw and throws at the feet of Fred Jackson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
run dat back Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I hope the haters don't cloud the reality - no, Orton was not perfect, but he was the best QB on the roster, and regardless of his shortcomings, we wouldn't have a winning season without him. If EJ was the starter all season long the record would be 4-12 at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Anyone who thinks that Orton just quit a month ago, or was just collecting a paycheck, Eric Wood said today he has never seen any player who put more work in than Orton. Ever. And that was going to be the lasting impression on players still on the Bills. How hard he prepared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) Anyone who thinks that Orton just quit a month ago, or was just collecting a paycheck, Eric Wood said today he has never seen any player who put more work in than Orton. Ever. And that was going to be the lasting impression on players still on the Bills. How hard he prepared. He strikes me as an honest, hard worker. I also think he's the sort of guy who did his best to avoid head shots and knows what can happen to NFL players who take to many of them -- and also knows when it's time to get out to prevent further damage. He's definitely brighter than the average NFL player, and I suspect that he didn't blow the $5 million he received to play this season. Edited December 29, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 He strikes me as an honest, hard worker. I also think he's the sort of guy who did his best to avoid head shots and knows what can happen to NFL players who take to many of them -- and also knows when it's time to get out to prevent further damage. He's definitely brighter than the average NFL player, and I suspect that he didn't blow the $5 million he received to play this season. Nope. He's one of those crazy liberal pinko fags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Orton sucks a$$. I hope the little panty wearing Commie doesn't run for federal office someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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