sfbillsfan Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I missed the part where it was supposed to read "Ralph is cheap" !!! Go Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadLandsMeanie Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I wouldn't take it too literally but from a 10k foot view he is right on. Everything was structured in a manner to secure the team in WNY. There was not some secret ploy to deceive other owners and they didn't have some secret plan to move the team. The reality is that they don't really have too much of a say what happens to the Bills. RW left the team in a position to remain in WNY based on the steps that he took along the way (lease, trust, etc...). I thought that was clearly obvious. I don't know why people need to make up theories that debunk something plain & clear. I come here sometimes. I dont often post but I read twobills and always look at the news. I am glad you folks liked my post thanks. On this point, if I may: I agree I do not know the behind the scenes hard facts and details, but I do know the crux of it. One main point is: The state and county provided a total of 95 million dollars in funds and Ralph Wilson signed a lease agreeing to potentially pay 800 million dollars in penalities for breaking that lease, which is insane. The team at that time was valued at $850 million. In essense they said you break the lease we take the team. The league approved that lease. Either that means they routinely approve leases that are bad beyond belief, or that they did not notice it. I think they did not notice it because of the things they said and did. Bon Jovi and Rogers for example had the backing of three high profile owners, and yet had no idea of the provisions of the lease. And the commisioner made remarks that were reported to amount to stating that the league might allow the team to stay, but that we would have to build a new stadium. I don't know the exact words he said, but the reports were that is what he meant. So they approved a lease that made any ambition they may have had to move the team, virtually impossible. And they sure didnt seem to know it. And as you say now that there is a new owner, the league has little to say about those things. Thats why I figure they were hoodwinked. They approved a lease where the penalty for defaulting on 95 million in funding, was 800 million dollars plus possible jail time, and they then talked as if they thought they could move the team and make us build a stadium and they could do neither of those things. And they kind of look like morons for saying those things especialy because the lease forbids anyone from buying the team who intends to move it. And Ralph Wilson milked at least 100 milion dollars out of Rogers for those games, but signed a lease making it next to impossible for him to buy the team and bring it to Toronto. I am thinking Rogers would probably be pretty angry about that. Wouldn't you be? But we didn't hear any howling about it from Rogers.I dont think he knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) . . . Either that means they routinely approve leases that are bad beyond belief, or that they did not notice it. . 1. A third possibility is that you don't understand what the publicly available lease actually says. Poloncarz stated in an interview earlier this year that he is writing a book about the lease negotiations. I don't know when it will be published, but it would be interesting to compare (1) what Poloncarz writes about the lease negotiations, with (2) your speculation. According to Poloncarz, the Bills "weren't too thrilled about" the $400 million liquidated damages provision when the government initially proposed it, but the government "fought" to keep it in the lease: http://www.wgrz.com/media/cinematic/video/9739659/poloncarz-writing-book-on-stadium-lease/ 2. The most likely reason for the trust wanting a fast sale is that the sale proceeds are needed to timely pay the required estate taxes. If the Bills made up a high percentage of Wilson's total net worth then liquidating only his other assets might not generate enough cash to pay them. 3. Although the lease allowed the trust to sell the team to any new owner who already planned to move the team AFTER the year seven buyout, that seven year wait is still a provision that made buying the team far less desirable to anyone planning to move the team. Potential buyers may have been blind-sided by any sale restrictions contained in Ralph's confidential trust agreement (which to this day has never been made public as far as I know), but it's far-fetched to think that billionaires interested in buying the team, and NFL executives responsible for approving the now publicly available lease, didn't bother to read and understand the lease. There are reasons to be grateful to Ralph for agreeing to the terms of a lease that prohibited a move for seven years when his life expectancy was quite a bit less than that, and there may very well be even better reasons to also be grateful to Ralph for any sale restrictions that may exist in his confidential trust documents, but the other owners aren't as dumb as you seem to think. But that's a less heart-warming story. Let's squish the h*ll out of the Phish this Sunday anyway. Go Bills! Edited September 12, 2014 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I don't like linking to other boards, but this is intriguing to think about: http://boards.buffal...-Victories-Ever That was one of the best posts I ever read, I even saved to a file. If it is true I wish Ralph put that much effort into winning. Ralph gave the rest of the NFL owners the middle finger. As others have said, a good story, maybe only loosely based in fact. But that worked for Shawshank Redemption! If if really was an "FU" to the other NFL owners, the pending vote on a Pegula ownership might not be as certain as it feels right now...rememebef, 24 other owners have to be on board with this... I feel indebted to Mr Wilson for facilitating the Bills long tenure in Buffalo, but I have little doubt that his desire to keep the Bills where he built them did not include doing anything detrimental to the league that he helped build. There is no way the owners would ever admit to being duped ( the king has no clothes) and as such will approve Pegula unanimously. Plus he is the fourth richest owner so there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I wouldn't take it too literally but from a 10k foot view he is right on. Everything was structured in a manner to secure the team in WNY. There was not some secret ploy to deceive other owners and they didn't have some secret plan to move the team. The reality is that they don't really have too much of a say what happens to the Bills. RW left the team in a position to remain in WNY based on the steps that he took along the way (lease, trust, etc...). Have the terms of the lease that had the provisions about staying in WNY been released, and, if not, will they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Have the terms of the lease that had the provisions about staying in WNY been released, and, if not, will they? If you Google it, you'll find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Have the terms of the lease that had the provisions about staying in WNY been released, and, if not, will they? The lease is a public document. The terms of the trust are private. The terms of that may come out over time (and they may not). Tim Graham referenced the other day that if that does come out people will understand RW's commitment to WNY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playman Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 heres to the man with the plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Nice read, even if a bit over the top. Still all in all, I'll have a beer for Mr. Wilson this Sunday as the Buffalo Bills community rightfully honor him and celebrate his legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 To the OP, thanks for a great post, even if it originated elsewhere. It is one that makes me scream, "I want to believe". Great post and one of the best ever written for our consumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) While his enthusiasm and unbridled passion for Ralph may be admired, most of this guy's post is made up fantasy stuff: Ralph Wilson resisted building a new stadium and said we did not need one now. For ten or fifteen years now we have been told that the Bills will be moved when Mr Wilson passes away, because the league wants them in a larger more lucrative market. The NFL approved this lease. But it became more and more apparent over time that they did not understand it, in the same way that they did not understand the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Planning to move the team, or build a stadium in another metropolitan area, or negotiate with any parties intending to do these things, would result in a fine of 400 million dollars PLUS additional court imposed costs that have been estimated to be another 400 million dollars, PLUS possible jail time. Then, when it was too late, it was pointed out to them that not only would they be facing around 800 million dollars in fines and possible jail time from angry New York courts We were initially told that the team would go into a trust and the sale would take as long as two years. That made sense because it takes time to free up huge amounts of money and it would allow the estate to get the largest number of potential buyers. I think it is because Ralph Wilson wanted it to happen fast before the league could figure a way out of the legal binds he put them into. The league and the Bon Jovi's and Jerry Jones etc didn’t even know what trouble they were in until July, when it was explained to them. Ralph Wilson did not believe teams should be moved. No matter where the team was, the league wanted to demand a new stadium. Say what you will about Mr. Wilson’s “inner circle” but there was a plan carried out here that very astute business minds did not understand, and none of it leaked out. It is now too late. Ralph Wilson has achieved one of the greatest sports victories ever, and he did it, after he was dead. What is he talking about? The NFL "didn't understand the lease"?? That makes no sense. Ralph threatened to move the team in the late 90's if fans didn't sell out the new luxury boxes built. And at this point EVERYONE (the Bills, the county, the state, the NFL) is in complete agreement that the Bill sneed a new stadium. If the state/county had promised Ralph a new stadium (instead of new toilets and gift shop in the current, ancient one) before he died--he would have figurativley jumped at that offer, as it would have increased the value of the team to his heirs even more. The NFL didn't want the Bills in Buffalo? They approved a lease that essentially forces them to stay for 7 more years. Goodell had publicly stated the Bills should stay in Buffalo. I fact, immediately after Ralph died, Goodell said this: "We all know they have a lease," Goodell said Wednesday. "We know the terms of that lease and we also know we have to find a long-term solution to keep the Bills there, and that's what we will work to do Over a month ago, Tim Graham reported that Kraft and Jones had advised Bon Jovi to "bail" on his attempt at buying the Bills. As for the saintly trust--on the same day that Graham posted this, it was reported by Kryk that the trust asked BJB/Toronto to submit a second bid because their first one was felt to be too low! In May, a reprorter from New 4 Buffalo said that Kraft told he that he supported the Bills staying in Buffalo and "will do everything he can to make that happen:. And what is this about "jail time" from "angry NY courts"? Crazy. Look, the owners I'm sure are overjoyed that a new billionaire is joining them--and that one of the lowest valued team in the league just sold for a record price--to the highest bidder obviously..... There is no way they wanted to see this dragged out over "years" in trust. Almost everything this guy has posted is made up. This wasn't Ralph against the NFL at all. Edited September 12, 2014 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 BadLands, it's a great story, but it reads like a Hollywood script after it's 10th iteration. I heard of a $400M penalty for moving in 2020, but not $800M. This wasn't a story of Ralph vs. the NFL -- the majority of league owners did not want us to relocate. Ralph was always against relocation. He signed a lease that was against relocation. That's it. He didn't plan on dying and "hoodwinking" 31 other owners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadLandsMeanie Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) BadLands, it's a great story, but it reads like a Hollywood script after it's 10th iteration. I heard of a $400M penalty for moving in 2020, but not $800M. This wasn't a story of Ralph vs. the NFL -- the majority of league owners did not want us to relocate. Ralph was always against relocation. He signed a lease that was against relocation. That's it. He didn't plan on dying and "hoodwinking" 31 other owners Aww its ok I wont debate it any more because as I mentioned, I dont know that they didn't understand it. But it sure looked that way to me for some of the reasons I put in the post, and because of history. So maybe he tricked them, and maybe he didnt. But don't expect the league bosses to readily admit that they had their asses handed to them by a dead man And the rest if his legacy stuff is less subject to speculation. He did get 1.4 billion for a team that they said was worth $850 million, and importantly,. more than the Fins! Edited September 12, 2014 by BadLandsMeanie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Finally read the entire post. Hard to have my browser open for that long a time when people at work are in an open environment such as my work CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Wow! That is the greatest message board post I have ever read on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 While his enthusiasm and unbridled passion for Ralph may be admired, most of this guy's post is made up fantasy stuff: What is he talking about? The NFL "didn't understand the lease"?? That makes no sense. Ralph threatened to move the team in the late 90's if fans didn't sell out the new luxury boxes built. And at this point EVERYONE (the Bills, the county, the state, the NFL) is in complete agreement that the Bill sneed a new stadium. If the state/county had promised Ralph a new stadium (instead of new toilets and gift shop in the current, ancient one) before he died--he would have figurativley jumped at that offer, as it would have increased the value of the team to his heirs even more. The NFL didn't want the Bills in Buffalo? They approved a lease that essentially forces them to stay for 7 more years. Goodell had publicly stated the Bills should stay in Buffalo. I fact, immediately after Ralph died, Goodell said this: Over a month ago, Tim Graham reported that Kraft and Jones had advised Bon Jovi to "bail" on his attempt at buying the Bills. As for the saintly trust--on the same day that Graham posted this, it was reported by Kryk that the trust asked BJB/Toronto to submit a second bid because their first one was felt to be too low! In May, a reprorter from New 4 Buffalo said that Kraft told he that he supported the Bills staying in Buffalo and "will do everything he can to make that happen:. And what is this about "jail time" from "angry NY courts"? Crazy. Look, the owners I'm sure are overjoyed that a new billionaire is joining them--and that one of the lowest valued team in the league just sold for a record price--to the highest bidder obviously..... There is no way they wanted to see this dragged out over "years" in trust. Almost everything this guy has posted is made up. This wasn't Ralph against the NFL at all. Interesting thoughts.The point I'm struggling with reconciling is what Pegula ended up paying for the team, $1.4B ? That's over 50% higher than their reported valuation. If the process was so restrictive in terms of geography, why did Pegs need to go so high ? Three bidders, one confirmed at $1.05B, Trump supposedly at $800M and Pegs at $1.4B ? There's got to be more to it. I know Kryk surmised it was to "close" the negotiations quickly, but, that seems like a ridiculous premium for that. Anyone know anything ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Aww its ok I wont debate it any more because as I mentioned, I dont know that they didn't understand it. It's still a great inspirational story, about a great man, on a great week for the franchise! I'm sure RW would be thrilled with the way things turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go Kiko go Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 While his enthusiasm and unbridled passion for Ralph may be admired, most of this guy's post is made up fantasy stuff: What is he talking about? The NFL "didn't understand the lease"?? That makes no sense. And what is this about "jail time" from "angry NY courts"? Crazy. Agreed. The lease appears to have been quite a gift to the city, but the notion that the league or other owners didn't understand the terms of a, relatively speaking, simple and straightforward document stretches the imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taglientep Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Can you imagine all the guys, Hunt, Davis, and the rest of the AFL owners waiting for him at the gates of heaven laughing and giving him a high five for the moves he pulled to secure his team staying in buffalo. I have always thought and the sentiment I always got was the Ralph was an AFL guy first then an NFL mind. Doing what was best for his team more than the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Buffalo Joe Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 BadLands, it's a great story, but it reads like a Hollywood script after it's 10th iteration. I heard of a $400M penalty for moving in 2020, but not $800M. This wasn't a story of Ralph vs. the NFL -- the majority of league owners did not want us to relocate. Ralph was always against relocation. He signed a lease that was against relocation. That's it. He didn't plan on dying and "hoodwinking" 31 other owners Not gonna lie though, that story would make an epic Movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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