We don't have so much a QB problem as an O-line problem.

[TXBILLSFAN]

New thread thought: "We don't have so much a QB problem as a TE problem."

let's start blaming them, too.

 

jw

I got one, "we don't have so much a QB problem as a front office problem"

 

but let's keep blaming the players, the coordinators, the head coaches and the GM's

 

 

[OldTimer1960]

I guess it depends on how long it takes to develop him. A guy who needs 3-5 years to develop into a decent starter is not someone most fans would sign off on going "all in" with from the start. It's not so much a knock on Manuel as it is an acknowledgement of an iffy situation with no apparent viable alternative.

yet Aaron Rodgers sat behind Brett Farve for 3 or more years and Drew Brees was allowed to leave SD as a FA after 4 years,,, Clearly, if the Packers expected Rogers to be great after 1 year, they'd have cut/traded him. SD didn't like Brees enough to prevent them from drafting Rivers and letting Brees - a likely HOF, go.

 

To be clear, QB IS important and you need advanced knowledge from them. HOWEVER, few 3+ year veterans are going to listen to him. To wish away growing pains is NOT realistic - especially when the receivers are mostly young/inexperienced. Tell me, what receiver - WR or TE does EJ have that is so experienced that he can run the right route given the play call AND the defense' play?

[snamsnoops]

God, his own coach is publicly calling EJ out for trying to "pinpoint" the ball on every play and not make a mistake, instead of just letting it fly. And Marrone is also publicly calling out all three backup QBs too. No one is blaming the offensive line except PTR and his usual band of apologists.

 

There was a play before the TD, I think it was 2nd and 10, EJ scrambled to his left and, instead of throwing it away, ran out of bounds for a four yard sack-loss. It was the kind of play that only a raw rookie makes - it displayed zero situational awareness. It made me sick to my stomach.

 

Not saying EJ is a bust. But he is not ready, and they stubbornly refused to put in a veteran compliment to him as a safety net. It's incredibly frustrating.

Watching the game i thought the same thing. Then i remembered QB's lacking experience do this an EJ (like it or not) is still a rookie(>16games). Oh and the strike he threw to Caveman into coverage on the NEXT play. That was nice, and helped to forget the run out of bounds for a sack!

The O looked terrible. Everyone looked bad in the first half. The center of our line was collapsed a lot\every play. The refs were a little quick on some calls but whatever it is pre-season. Ball security was terrible. EJ wasn't comfortable and it showed in his play. What was the deal with players from both teams slipping?! I know they want things Vanilla but the play call was terrible for our O.

I am not real worried about our D, outside of QB's throwing to whoever is covered by a LB. Could be a problem

Cant wait to see SWAT.

Hopefully EJ can execute like he did in the 2nd half of the game. I know it wasn't there first string D, I dont care it gave me some (b it only a little) Hope

The O line with more time should improve. We have a huge question mark at G!

Edited August 25, 2014 by snamsnoops

[OldTimer1960]

Has anyone just flat out asked EJ if he takes any responsibility for the problems on offense?

 

And with all due respect to Jim, his opinion on Manuel doesn't mean anything. I'm glad he can offer his opinion and feels free to give it when asked, but it's meaningless.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Yep - Jim Kelly, whom we all immortalize, played 2 professional seasons in the USFL before coming to Buffalo. Yet, when he came to Buffalo in the NFL, he wasn't immediately great.

 

My point is that it is WAY oversimplistic to blame the 2nd year QB for all offensive problems. SEE: SF and Colin Kaepernick in year 3 and RG3 (whom Washington gave up a TON of draft picks for). Neither of those guys are lighting it up this pre-season. It isn't just "pick a QB from college because it is a "new ERA" and most college QBs are NFL ready".

 

BTW, the argument that there is somehow this "new school" of QBs coming out of college are somehow all ready to play in the NFL is nonsense, as far as I can see. Dan Marino dominated as a rookie in 1983, but most other young QBs struggled. Does anyone think that because Andrew Luck was good as a rookie that all rookie QBs should be good without experience?

[K-9]

Yep - Jim Kelly, whom we all immortalize, played 2 professional seasons in the USFL before coming to Buffalo. Yet, when he came to Buffalo in the NFL, he wasn't immediately great.

 

My point is that it is WAY oversimplistic to blame the 2nd year QB for all offensive problems. SEE: SF and Colin Kaepernick in year 3 and RG3 (whom Washington gave up a TON of draft picks for). Neither of those guys are lighting it up this pre-season. It isn't just "pick a QB from college because it is a "new ERA" and most college QBs are NFL ready".

 

BTW, the argument that there is somehow this "new school" of QBs coming out of college are somehow all ready to play in the NFL is nonsense, as far as I can see. Dan Marino dominated as a rookie in 1983, but most other young QBs struggled. Does anyone think that because Andrew Luck was good as a rookie that all rookie QBs should be good without experience?

 

You're preaching to the choir, OldTimer. Marino is the ONLY quarterback I can think of that flat out dominated as a rookie. Even the so-called great rookies of 2012 struggled mightily their first years and none are what I would consider polished QBs in this league, Russell Wilson's SB win notwithstanding.

 

People who know the game understand what the deal is when it comes to developing QBs. You'd think that in a 32 team league with only a handful of great QBs, there would be more appreciation for just how rare it is to find "that guy."

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PromoTheRobot]

I have never seen you blame the organization for a problem. Not saying it's never happened, but that is what causes fans to call you a kool-aid drinker. You blamed the fans for running Fitz out of town when there was a phone recording of the FO saying Fitz stinks and he needs to go.

 

Smooth move, Ajax. Buddy Nix never said Fitz had to go. He said he had to take less money. Thought you could slip that one by?

 

As for blaming the team, I don't have to because you and your fellow posters blame everything on everybody...the GM, coach, players, etc. 98% of the time it's irrational and contradictory. We turn on everyone for the slightest reason. We have no patience. We think because of 14 years with no playoffs we are owed immediate satisfaction. We also think our negativity doesn't affect the players. I think Marquis Goodwin showed it does. Players are human. No one wants to be endlessly told they suck and that their team sucks. If you think the doom and gloom mentality here doesn't affect players, I think you'd be surprised. We expect failure and we get it.

Edited August 25, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[GG]

Smooth move, Ajax. Buddy Nix never said Fitz had to go. He said he had to take less money. Thought you could slip that one by?

 

As for blaming the team, I don't have to because you and your fellow posters blame everything on everybody...the GM, coach, players, etc. 98% of the time it's irrational and contradictory. We turn on everyone for the slightest reason. We have no patience. We think because of 14 years with no playoffs we are owed immediate satisfaction. We also think our negativity doesn't affect the players. I think Marquis Goodwin showed it does. Players are human. No one wants to be endlessly told they suck and that their team sucks. If you think the doom and gloom mentality here doesn't affect players, I think you'd be surprised. We expect failure and we get it.

 

So the fans should suck up to the front office ineptitude for the last decade?

 

BTW, it helps to get the story straight. ""Listen, we have said from day one that we want to draft a good young quarterback," Nix said. "I don't want to leave here without a franchise guy for the future in place. I have not said that before, but I'm saying it now because it's fact." Nov 2012

[thewildrabbit]

There was a good rational for not re-signing Levitre from a football and cost/beneift standpoint. The staff wanted to go bigger on the line and they weren't willing to pay a premium price for a guard. There is nothing unreasonable with the postion they took. My problem with the Levitre departure was that the front office knew way in advance that he wasn't going to be on the roster the next year. They ended up with Brown and Legursky as the potential replacements. Brown was arguably one of the worst starting linemen in the league. Legursky is nothing but a utility player who can fill in on an emergency basis at the guard and center positions. Not having a credible replacement was the major failing for the front office, not his departure.

Good point and most of the fans knew there was a distinct problem going forward at LG. Ya know what, there still is a problem at LG with Chris Williams. Plus the RG position with Pears. I don't care if Moron loves the guy at RG, Pears falls on his face when the team plays good teams. What freaking good is a part time player.

 

The problem then is when your plugging holes in the dam you only have so many plugs (draft picks FA) and then another leak happens. Right now it seems here that the dam is going to break unless the engineers figure it out quick. I guess i'm not there...yet.

This thinking is completely absurd as Whaley made some excellent moves to beef up the defense, and almost looks at building the line as an afterthought. The OG position is particular important in terms on run blocking, and interior protection. Watch how Pears at RG plays against the Jets Sheldon Richardson this year.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone here stated they thought EJ played well in the first half, and most said he had a lousy half. Its a team sport, and the entire team stunk it up. If they continue to stink that badly against starters...then more changes will be coming.

[PromoTheRobot]

So the fans should suck up to the front office ineptitude for the last decade?

 

BTW, it helps to get the story straight. ""Listen, we have said from day one that we want to draft a good young quarterback," Nix said. "I don't want to leave here without a franchise guy for the future in place. I have not said that before, but I'm saying it now because it's fact." Nov 2012

 

But Nix wanted Fitz to stick around a while so EJ wouldn't have to be rushed into the starters role. As for sticking up for the front office I believe they are trying to fix this team. The fans are the ones who lose patience with the process after the first OTA.

[thewildrabbit]

So the fans should suck up to the front office ineptitude for the last decade?

 

BTW, it helps to get the story straight. ""Listen, we have said from day one that we want to draft a good young quarterback," Nix said. "I don't want to leave here without a franchise guy for the future in place. I have not said that before, but I'm saying it now because it's fact." Nov 2012

Its just to damn bad he didn't think that way in 2010, or 2011. Instead Gailey / Nix put all their winning hopes on a perennial backup QB with a losing record in Fitz. Then he finally drafts a QB in one of the weakest QB drafts in years.

 

Now, Doug Whaley is all in on EJ. So if he continues to stink who gets the blame? Who do the Bills draft in 2015 with only a second round pick?

[TXBILLSFAN]

Nix never really addressed the QB position until he had a foot out the door. He'll forever be remembered for passing on Russell Wilson in favor of TJ Graham and for thinking Fitz was the answer.

 

PTR:

I know you know this, but it's impossible as fans to simply ignore the past 14 years of ineptitude. Whaley and Brandon are selling this season as a playoff team, they are setting up high expectations. They are telling us that EJ is the answer, in words and actions. They traded for Sammy and mortgaged the future, signed an LG and drafted 3 O Lineman. So, when fans go to the game and watch the O Line and EJ fall apart, what do you expect them to do, stand on their feet and give them a standing ovation ?

 

Patience ? Both Harbaugh's, Payton, Tomlin, Kelly (to name several), all won (made playoffs)their 1st years with their respective teams; I think Bills fans are too patient, I don't think we have high enough expectations and we certainly don't hold the executives of this team accountable for the performance on the field.

[GG]

But Nix wanted Fitz to stick around a while so EJ wouldn't have to be rushed into the starters role. As for sticking up for the front office I believe they are trying to fix this team. The fans are the ones who lose patience with the process after the first OTA.

 

I'm sure this helped too. "When talk turns to the Bills' moves, Nix says he's not planning on doing much because he's handcuffed by Ryan Fitzpatrick. "We're still struggling here with our quarterback...We're not really struggling—he's going to have to do something, or we'll have to."

More Nix on Fitzpatrick: "We just can't afford to pay that kind of money for a guy who's fighting for probably a backup job."

Edited August 26, 2014 by GG

[thebandit27]

New thread thought: "We don't have so much a QB problem as a TE problem."

let's start blaming them, too.

 

jw

 

How about we discuss it without building a straw man?

 

[FireChan]

 

 

Smooth move, Ajax. Buddy Nix never said Fitz had to go. He said he had to take less money. Thought you could slip that one by?

 

As for blaming the team, I don't have to because you and your fellow posters blame everything on everybody...the GM, coach, players, etc. 98% of the time it's irrational and contradictory. We turn on everyone for the slightest reason. We have no patience. We think because of 14 years with no playoffs we are owed immediate satisfaction. We also think our negativity doesn't affect the players. I think Marquis Goodwin showed it does. Players are human. No one wants to be endlessly told they suck and that their team sucks. If you think the doom and gloom mentality here doesn't affect players, I think you'd be surprised. We expect failure and we get it.

 

He said he takes less money or he's gone. Where do the fans fit in the equation?

[3rdand12]

Seantrel is a rook. He'll be fine as the year progresses. Can't say that about Pears.

even at his first playing at RG in six years ? yell at Marrone for that one.

boy Pears had a tough time next to that 7th round rookie who was playing RT for the first.

GL i am not trying to take you at point, I am generally speaking to everyone who does not yet have me on ignore : )

That was a first go around with that set . think those guys have potential. Seriously

 

Nice change of pace eh fella's ?

[Solomon Grundy]

hmmmm. seems some guy named Jim Kelly is pinning some of the blame on EJ.

 

jw

 

The same Jim Kelly who did the same thing early in his career until a guy named Thurman Thomas spoke up for everyone else hence " The Bickering Bills"

 

It's incredulous that many on this board expect so much so fast. Give this administration, staff, QB, and team time. Everything from the top down is better at One Bills Drive from stadium to talent. They will gel and we will see the progress this coming season. I know it's easy to say, but hard to do.....PATIENCE.

[JESSEFEFFER]

I booed the team as they left the field because I believed that they had played like crap, I wasn't happy with them and I needed to express that much as I did two decades ago when a team with multiple Pro Bowlers and future HoF'ers was losing at home to a terrible team (Colts? Bengals?) after 3 first half picks from Jim Kelly.

 

The throws by EJ that I thought were horrible really weren't so upon further review. Woods stumbled from his break, Fred stopped his route when a defender got between him and the ball and EJ lost his grip on the downfield duck to Woods. The 2nd and goal from the 7 was a strict read option run all the way. Woods was blocking and Wood had gone to the 3 before EJ took 4 steps.

 

Yeah, he could have thrown it out of bounds and risked intentional grounding (tough to square up while running left) or an inelligible receiver down field. But, he tried to make the best of a bad play and avoid taking an unnecessary hit. Can't fault him for being unable to predict that they'd lose 7 instead of 2 or 3.

 

EJ was not as bad as I thought while watching in the stadium but the whole team deserved the boos that I gave them. If there weren't so many prepubescent butts in the seats, the booing would have sounded much worse.

[Dibs]

It seems to me that a lot of the argument in this thread is due to the poorly written title(sorry PTR). It instantly gives the impression that the OP is saying that our QB situation is fine......which I don't think PTR was intending it to come across that way.

 

Perhaps a better title would have been "We have an OL problem." .....and then explain how it can make an admittedly poor performing EJ look to be horrible(rather than poor/inconsistent/whatever).

[Delete This Account]

How about we discuss it without building a straw man?

 

sure, let's. but that was not the title of this thread, which is what put me off to begin with, creating that very same "straw man" with the offensive line.

it all comes back to quarterback, and the quarterback has been inconsistent at best, and a drain on the team's resources given how much they've invested in the offense already this offseason.

and if Palmer is being brought in to help "tutor" Manuel, then now that development process is eating up another roster spot.

 

last year, Manuel contributed to costing the team one or two wins by failing to get out of bounds against Cleveland.

what price do the Bills pay this season if that big leap in development that many inside 1 Bills Drive (and outside it) seek fails to materialize.

 

i haven't seen much of it.

 

but, according to the OP, that's the O-line's problem.

 

...

 

sorry, a few more things.

it's not the o-line's fault when EJ persistently stares down receivers in the red zone.

it's not the o-line's fault either when EJ has, on occasion, taken off and run the ball during 7-on-7 drills in practice when, in fact, there is no o-line.

 

have there been positives? sure. but comparing this preseason with the last one, not sure if there's anything to indicate a big leap forward despite added talent and coaches around him.

 

before camp, Doug Whaley spoke about an objective of how he wanted to see come out of camp with a better command of the offense, carrying a swagger perhaps.

and yet, EJ joked last week that one of the biggest things he got out of camp was staying healthy. i guess that's a start ... but.

 

jw

Edited August 26, 2014 by john wawrow

[reddogblitz]

sorry, a few more things.

it's not the o-line's fault when EJ persistently stares down receivers in the red zone.

it's not the o-line's fault either when EJ has, on occasion, taken off and run the ball during 7-on-7 drills in practice when, in fact, there is no o-line.

 

have there been positives? sure. but comparing this preseason with the last one, not sure if there's anything to indicate a big leap forward despite added talent and coaches around him.

 

before camp, Doug Whaley spoke about an objective of how he wanted to see come out of camp with a better command of the offense, carrying a swagger perhaps.

and yet, EJ joked last week that one of the biggest things he got out of camp was staying healthy. i guess that's a start ... but.

 

jw

 

How about we just wait until the season starts? PS means nothing. We have more talent true, but the biggest new piece has hardly played.

 

I saw EJ do a lot of good things last year and some bad things too. That's what rookie QBs do. I remember draft night and all the experts and I believe even Bills brass said EJ is a project. He needs to learn a lot to be a successful NFL QB.

 

Can't we give the guy a little time? He's played 11 games and a handful of pre sesaon games. Lets get all the starters playing and the real playbook and I believe we'll see much better results. This is of course assuming the Offensive Line plays much better than that sorry inept performance Saturday night.

 

How are we supposed to tell if he has "a better command of the offense" when they haven't been running it in PS games?

 

Putting the bust label on a new QB after 11 games is a new record even for TBD.

 

It is getting lonely on the EJ bandwagon but I'm prepared to stay for a while.