purple haze Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I don't disagree but the Bills aren't near that tipping point yet. I suspect that they will be with the new stadium. It will probably be 65,000 or so seats and if I had to bet they can come in over 150% of their ticket revenue (which I believe it is 40% that is shared). If the average ticket is now $50 (just for round numbers sake) that's $3.5M per game (at 70K). If the average slides to $85 and 65K seats (not unreasonable at all) that's $5.25M per game. If my numbers are right the Bills are keeping another $1.25M a game or about and additional $12M a year in their cut of ticket revenue from games played in Buffalo. (Disclaimer: I don't remember the % shared on tickets). p.s. I miss the old Yankee Stadium too. I wish that this place retained more of the character. Winning and iconic events gave old Yankee Stadium it's character. It wasn't just the baseball games either. It was the iconic boxing matches. Football games, etc. The new place is great to be in, but definitely lacking in the intangibles. That's partly due to the fact it's so new it hasn't built up the equity moments yet. Also partly because the Yanks are not winning. Cashman needs to go. But that's a discussion for a different place and time. The new stadium shouldn't have tried so hard to be a cash cow. I don't get it with these owners/leagues and trying to give fans an "experience" not many ask for at all. All I want are great sightlines and a great team. Edited August 21, 2014 by purple haze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clearwater cadet Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 K I feel like suite revenue generation was/is a huge part of the Toronto market push. Tons of corporate money up there, and having 8 opportunities to send clients/partners less than 2 hours to an NFL game is probably an easy expense to justify. I could be mistaken, but I read in Canada there are no tax breaks for money spent on dining, recreation, or sporting events. So selling boxes might not be as easy as everyone thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 i was under the impression, from several sources, including I believe Mark Poloncarz, that the lease all but does prevent the team from moving to Toronto in 2020. That they couldn't just pay the $28m fine and move the team in that window, they would have to win a virtually unwinable court case in Erie County in front of an Erie County Judge just for the right to pay the $28m fine. And only if they won the unwinabe case could they then move, and only IF the NFL allowed them to. Is that not true to your understanding of the lease? Unfortunately that's not the case (but that is the correct with regard to what would happen if the Bills tried to move before that date; the Bills couldn't just pay the $400M liquidated damages amount and walk away--the county and state would ask a judge to bar the Bills from playing anywhere else during the lease term, and would have a decent chance of prevailing). The lease provides that the Bills have an option to terminate the lease in 2020. In other words, the parties agreed that the Bills may terminate the lease at that time (for a $28M fee), just like if you agreed with a landlord that you would sign a one-year lease for an apartment, but that you have the right to terminate the lease with 60 days notice. The lease provides that "the Bills shall have the right to terminate this 2013 Stadium Lease effective at 11:59 p.m., Buffalo, New York time as of the Termination Date, provided that the Bills have first (a) delivered to the County and the ECSC, no later than 12:00 noon Buffalo, New York time on the Termination Notice Date, written notice of the Bills' intention to terminate this 2013 Stadium Lease . . . and (b) paid to the ECSC, before the Termination Date, the Termination Fee." Where "Termination Date" is July 30, 2020; "Termination Notice Date" is February 28, 2020; and "Termination Fee" is $28,363,500. Kelly The Dog: And if you want to see that language in the actual lease for yourself, you can find it at Article 7.1, page 35, here: http://www2.erie.gov/exec/sites/www2.erie.gov.exec/files/uploads/Stadium%20Lease%20Agreement123.pdf The defined terms that use initial caps are listed in alphabetical order starting on page 4 of the lease, so the ones starting with the word "Termination" are at pages 19-20. This is pretty dry stuff, but there is a more detailed response with my brother Darryl's thoughts at reply # 122 in the following thread if you're actually interested: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/167263-report-agreement-forbids-sale-to-an-owner-who-would-relocate/page__st__120#entry3117737 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I could be mistaken, but I read in Canada there are no tax breaks for money spent on dining, recreation, or sporting events. So selling boxes might not be as easy as everyone thinks. I believe that's correct...I wasn't really speaking to tax breaks; more saying that a mega-corporation can easily justify an overhead expense such as suite tickets for clients/partners. I know the firm I used to work for did, and it was a Canadian corporation (I worked for a U.S. office). Edited August 21, 2014 by thebandit27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheZone78 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I believe that's correct...I wasn't really speaking to tax breaks; more saying that a mega-corporation can easily justify an overhead expense such as suite tickets for clients/partners. I know the firm I used to work for did, and it was a Canadian corporation (I worked for a U.S. office). You can claim up to 50% of those expenses in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think bottom line is that there is a lot more corporate money in Toronto and southern Ontario than there is in WNY, the Bills need to continue to use the NFL brand and putting a better product on the field to draw those $ down to Buffalo, especially if they build a new stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Don't know if it has already been posted, but interesting. http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2014/08/21/three-bids-for-buffalo-bills-are-each-below-900-million/?partner=yahootix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 i was under the impression, from several sources, including I believe Mark Poloncarz, that the lease all but does prevent the team from moving to Toronto in 2020. That they couldn't just pay the $28m fine and move the team in that window, they would have to win a virtually unwinable court case in Erie County in front of an Erie County Judge just for the right to pay the $28m fine. And only if they won the unwinabe case could they then move, and only IF the NFL allowed them to. Is that not true to your understanding of the lease? Kelly, that is not the case. The $28 million opt out is clean. It would not require any protracted legal battle. I don't want to get into the details , but this has been thoroughly covered (especially by ICSWID) in other threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRQ_BillsFan Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I think it was easy for JBJ to get led to believe things that were simply not true early in this process by the Toronto money men. Things like the Bills are moving anyway so the fans would love it if it were just to Toronto because it is so close. We will easily keep 25-30% of the current fan base. However he should have seen quite quickly that this was not the case. But I do wonder if the way they were treated in Buffalo "turns off" the potential of the deep pocket corporations in Toronto. Edited August 21, 2014 by SRQ_BillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I think it was easy for JBJ to get led to believe things that were simply not true early in this process by the Toronto money men. Things like the Bills are moving anyway so the fans would love it if it were just to Toronto because it is so close. We will easily keep 25-30% of the current fan base. However he should have seen quite quickly that this was not the case. But I do wonder if the way they were treated in Buffalo "turns off" the potential of the deep pocket corporations in Toronto. If someone is going to use the majority of their wealth to pursue a venture like this they should do research on their own. A call to any individual much less anyone in the know who tell him it doesn't matter where they move outside WNY there will be a huge backlash. Also, I fault JBJ on two counts first, as an NFL fan he should know how loyal fans are regardless of market. Second, even if he initially believed that Bills Fans considered Toronto part of their radius, as soon as he learned otherwise, he had chances to make changes(outside of empty words) and didn't. Either of those two scenarios show him as obtuse as to what he is spending his money on. If he can't figure those out I am skeptical he would put a winner on the field, regardless. Edited August 21, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Winning and iconic events gave old Yankee Stadium it's character. That is true.... but the new place is soulless and awful. I dont believe any amount of iconic events can give it any character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Kelly The Dog: And if you want to see that language in the actual lease for yourself, you can find it at Article 7.1, page 35, here: http://www2.erie.gov/exec/sites/www2.erie.gov.exec/files/uploads/Stadium%20Lease%20Agreement123.pdf The defined terms that use initial caps are listed in alphabetical order starting on page 4 of the lease, so the ones starting with the word "Termination" are at pages 19-20. This is pretty dry stuff, but there is a more detailed response with my brother Darryl's thoughts at reply # 122 in the following thread if you're actually interested: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/167263-report-agreement-forbids-sale-to-an-owner-who-would-relocate/page__st__120#entry3117737 Thanks, guys. The confusion apparently was over the provision that stated that the Bills must notify the county and state of intention in the termination section. And like the 400$ m version of it, it wasn't just the fine, it was only if they won the unwinable case. In the $28m termination fee scenario, as soon as they were notified, the county and state could indeed seek an injunction because of perceived breaking of other parts of the lease that spoke to any intention of relocating, blah blah blah. It's very possible that whoever said that was wrong, and the county would not try to prevent it after they had been notified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Don't know if it has already been posted, but interesting. http://www.forbes.co...artner=yahootix While I wouldn't totally discount Ozanian's article, it does seem out of step with what others have reported, and behind the times, as he doesn't have Golisano's bid. Mostly it seems like a smear campaign directed at Morgan Stanley. I'm guessing MS and The Trust would like to keep the TO group alive, in order to keep the bids higher. But the TO group has virtually no chance to be awarded the team, so how much can they influence the price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 FWIW, now the report from Canada is that Tim Leweike will stay on his job at MLSE until next July or until his successor is appointed. In other words, he's leaving or has been asked to leave and will be there a few more months, and he failed to bring an NFL franchise there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 sell the team to Pegula for $1 Billion and lets move on. they are making it a circus by dragging it on and letting the rumors swirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 sell the team to Pegula for $1 Billion and lets move on. they are making it a circus by dragging it on and letting the rumors swirl You keep saying stuff like this. Sorry you are so inconvenienced, but this process will play out. I don't want to sound like a dick, but perhaps you should stop following the sale for a while if it annoys you so much. Come back in a few weeks, for the next phase. Believe it or not, the Bills sale HUGE complicated business transaction and doesn't conform to any particular timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 You keep saying stuff like this. Sorry you are so inconvenienced, but this process will play out. I don't want to sound like a dick, but perhaps you should stop following the sale for a while if it annoys you so much. Come back in a few weeks, for the next phase. Believe it or not, the Bills sale HUGE complicated business transaction and doesn't conform to any particular timeline. Wait just a second Dean, are you telling me that this whole thing doesn't run on the fans timeline? Thats completely ludacris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Wait just a second Dean, are you telling me that this whole thing doesn't run on the fans timeline? Thats completely ludacris. Hard to believe, I know, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) The Forbes article was amazing! National media crying in their class of pinot that Buffalo is going to keep its team and there isn't a damn thing they can do about it! Start over! It's a circus! It's just not FAIR! Guys with tons of money were supposed to be able to rip this team away from its fanbase! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Sorry Ozanian, the team is staying! You'll have to move on to dreaming of moving the Rams, Chargers or Raiders. Learn to deal with it. Edited August 21, 2014 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSNBDSC Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The Forbes article was amazing! National media crying in their class of pinot that Buffalo is going to keep its team and there isn't a damn thing they can do about it! Start over! It's a circus! It's just not FAIR! Guys with tons of money were supposed to be able to rip this team away from its fanbase! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Sorry Ozanian, the team is staying! You'll have to move on to dreaming of moving the Rams, Chargers or Raiders. Learn to deal with it. Thank you for saying that Stayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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