NoSaint Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I can't say I've ever seen someone insult people agreeing with him more than this thread. Impressive. That said, I'm not saying top 2 unit but I will say confidently above average LBs. D line should be elite status. Combining those two things make for a top 5 ish front 7 probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 What I know is the roster is much improved over last season. The change vs. 5-6 years ago is really marked. But, it takes more than a deep talented roster. How will the players gel with each other? Will the coaches play to the strengths of the roster or will they do what they've always done? Until I see what Schwartz does with the talent he's been given all I have a names on a roster. The names are better known than in past seasons, but, how many off seasons have we said..."this is the year we stop the run" only to go through another year of getting gouged? Go back and check...those threads are there from 2013, 2012 & 2011 etc. Missouri=show me Once I see production on the field? Sure. Till then...it's just names on a roster. Perhaps I should change my user name to Missouri. you damned Realist ! Fair enough : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny33 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Matt Warren @MattRichWarren 19m NFL's best linebacker corps: #Bills, 49ers lead the way http://sbn.to/1oCLmgo via @sbnation Bills are listed as one of two "elite" LB corps in the league. We've come a long way from the days of John DiGiorgio and Kirk Morrison as starters. This article lists Manny Lawson at OLB, which is probably inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Swchartz, the scheme and the secondary is really the biggest question mark I have going into the season regarding the defense. But the front seven is okay ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 The roster is hardly changed. Out as starters: Byrd, Stevie In: Spikes, Mike Williams, Watkins The rest are just backups and role players. Who cares. You're right about the players gelling, rather the chemistry. But that's going to be most important in the passing game where Manuel only has as a starting WR Woods from last season. Woods still hasn't even proven that he'll be a bona fide starting WR in the NFL. Neither Watkins nor Williams have ever caught a pass from Manuel. The play of the secondary is going to be huge this year, and right now it's worse than it was last year. Last season we played only 4 top-10 passing teams. This season we play 5 of the top-6 from last season. Pessimist defined.I see Spikes , for example as a glass half full . Nearly number one run stopping linebacker . Thats pretty niceand smart pickup , at a great price for a team that couldn't stop the run . my glass remains long tall cool and refreshing. : ) Though I agree somewhat with your points on the sacks, I don't see why you feel the need to be a stat stacker in order to support your narative. Yes we allowed 28 passing TDs. 20 in the first 8 games where the secondary was injured & learning the new D......and 8 in the last 8 games. One more & we were log jammed at 26th??? Well, we were actually 20th.....and had the same result of the 2nd half occured in the first half we would have been 2nd. You also fail to point out that we were actually 4th against the pass last year. Our opposition didn't have good passing offenses on average? Really? 7 were in the top 12, 5 in the bottom 12, and 4 in the middle 10. I totally agree that there are other indicators besides pass rush. 4th in the league against the pass & only 8 TDs allowed in the final 8 games are some of those other things. Also, if you acknowledge that we focused too much on sacks last year(and likely won't do the same this year), surely you would predict a Schwartz D with a new run stuffing specialist LB(Spikes) will improve the weakest area.....thus a possible improvement to the D. Thank for that sir. That's because the secondary was overrated last year. With Byrd gone it's not going to be good. It was the system that made them look better than they are. Few seem to be able to see this. Same for Watkins, it was his system in college that allowed him to excel. I read somewhere that most of his yardage came off of bubble screens. Several places in fact and his splits support that. Well, bubble screens aren't going to work in the NFL. So, now what we have is a highly touted WR that is going to be asked to do what he did not frequently do in college, and one that has route running as a weakness. That is hardly a good combo for an NFL WR much less for a rookie looking to transform a team and render credibility to a GM that's already taking on water for last year's 1st rounder. He may be great in a couple of seasons, but it's not going to be this season. If Manuel doesn't make an enormous leap, then Watkins will be fortunate to post 600 yards and 5 TDs, hardly enough to make an impact. Aaron Williams didn't all of a sudden become good overnight. He's still not good, he merely benefited from the system. McKelvin has sucked as a CB for years too, ditto there. Corey Graham simply isn't that good. Searcy, ... please. Gilmore's good but he's far from great yet. He needs to step up too. He's solid though. Without Byrd, IMO, this secondary falls apart. He was the glue that held it together. Now i have to start laughing .I am usaully polite. But it just got ugly when you showed a lack of in depth understanding of Watkins history And Clemson's play calling. You should have stopped before you discredited your self. Set your agenda aside and keep your vitrionlin check please. A little is fun but now your cup runnith over and is making a sticky mess This was a strong argument for the first half of the season, but over the course of the second half, after Byrd and Gilmore got healthy and the D started to play more insinctively as they got more accustomed to the new schemes, we improved tremendsously. I'm concerned that momentum will be stunted as the D tries again to learn a new system. I won't be surprised if it takes the better part of half the season before they are comfortable enough to once again play without having to think too much about it. GO BILLS!!! yes . i also am frowning . I hate to have lost what the defense was building up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 No we haven't!! This team has been bad for 14 years!! Until they start winning games Kiko & Kirk Morrison are the same in my book. I am so sick of hearing how talented they are. They have lost for 14 years! Fire everyone!! Do you really believe that new people, selecting new talent playing against different opponents will really change anything?? The Bills were bad a decade ago so I am sure that they will be bad now. Thanks Captain Optimism. Here's an idea. Go root for another team. We've all suffered through the same losing seasons, but to be so negative every summer just is depressing. For now, I believe we are in the right direction. Why would you ever hate a team, coaching, front office, and still pay such close attention to them. It makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I do think that TaskersGhost is the biggest pessimist I've seen on this board. And considering the pessimists we have here, that's pretty impressive. But I do think he has a point about Pettine's defense. We loved the blitz happy scheme as fans, but while the Bills might have had an exciting defense, but while they ranked 10th in yards allowed, they ranked 14th in third down conversions allowed, 20th in points allowed, and 28th in yards allowed against the run. Pettine's system relies heavily on misdirection and overloading pressure to get to the QB. It doesn't do sh*t for d*ck against power running. Let's just keep that in mind when we go up against the Browns this year. Fred, Boobie, Bryce...you're up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurmal34 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 How come NE's D has been below average with Spikes on their team then, and among the best in the biz as a head coach? NE's D has been below average long before Spikes got there. What statistical argument can be made for their HC being among the best in the biz defensively, particularly since the league became a passing league, as you correctly point out? Is there any evidence that Belichick is among the best in the biz defensively over, say, the last decade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) You know how 2014 will play out. I don't pretend to be able to do that. No but at the same time I will never base 2014 rankings strictly off of 2013. If that is the case you cannot predict records, etc... until the games are played? There are certain factors that go into future performance. Do we no for sure -of course not. Is it safe to say that a front 7 with 4 of the best 84 players in the entire NFL should be one of the league's better units -of course. Edited May 31, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 i want to coach our linebackers. so bad. i'd give a million bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted May 31, 2014 Author Share Posted May 31, 2014 I'm curious why 'vanity sites' like the one linked by the OP carry any water with people? Danny Kelly's opinion is just another fart in the wind, given legitimacy by a bit of fancy html code. It's called a blog. Take it as seriously as you wish. i want to coach our linebackers. so bad. i'd give a million bucks. Fred Pagac has been a LB coach for 100 years (ok, 30). I love that hire. ALMOST as much as the Pepper Johnson hire. BTW, I am sure the Browns are still hiring. That's because the secondary was overrated last year. With Byrd gone it's not going to be good. It was the system that made them look better than they are. Few seem to be able to see this. Same for Watkins, it was his system in college that allowed him to excel. I read somewhere that most of his yardage came off of bubble screens. Several places in fact and his splits support that. Well, bubble screens aren't going to work in the NFL. So, now what we have is a highly touted WR that is going to be asked to do what he did not frequently do in college, and one that has route running as a weakness. That is hardly a good combo for an NFL WR much less for a rookie looking to transform a team and render credibility to a GM that's already taking on water for last year's 1st rounder. He may be great in a couple of seasons, but it's not going to be this season. If Manuel doesn't make an enormous leap, then Watkins will be fortunate to post 600 yards and 5 TDs, hardly enough to make an impact. Aaron Williams didn't all of a sudden become good overnight. He's still not good, he merely benefited from the system. McKelvin has sucked as a CB for years too, ditto there. Corey Graham simply isn't that good. Searcy, ... please. Gilmore's good but he's far from great yet. He needs to step up too. He's solid though. Without Byrd, IMO, this secondary falls apart. He was the glue that held it together. Stop the presses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I do think that TaskersGhost is the biggest pessimist I've seen on this board. And considering the pessimists we have here, that's pretty impressive. But I do think he has a point about Pettine's defense. We loved the blitz happy scheme as fans, but while the Bills might have had an exciting defense, but while they ranked 10th in yards allowed, they ranked 14th in third down conversions allowed, 20th in points allowed, and 28th in yards allowed against the run. Pettine's system relies heavily on misdirection and overloading pressure to get to the QB. It doesn't do sh*t for d*ck against power running. Let's just keep that in mind when we go up against the Browns this year. Fred, Boobie, Bryce...you're up. The thing is.. we got beat on broken plays , more than a team pounding the rock. Which really skewed the numbers. Pettines defense did not allow for broken plays. Being a higher risk type of D when aggressive . Which was alot !If Kiko or Lawson went the wrong way or got caught up in blocks it was off to the races. There is some more details hidden in there i suppose. But that was my take. ps the Bills made some great efforts in stopping the run only to get back on the field after 3 or 4 plays last year. Heavier work load based on inefficient rookie Offense maybe ? Edited May 31, 2014 by 3rdand12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I can't say I've ever seen someone insult people agreeing with him more than this thread. Impressive. That said, I'm not saying top 2 unit but I will say confidently above average LBs. D line should be elite status. Combining those two things make for a top 5 ish front 7 probably. That is pretty much exactly how I feel. The DL is better than the LBs but they are pretty good. Thanks Captain Optimism. Here's an idea. Go root for another team. We've all suffered through the same losing seasons, but to be so negative every summer just is depressing. For now, I believe we are in the right direction. Why would you ever hate a team, coaching, front office, and still pay such close attention to them. It makes no sense. See Johnny Hamersticks, I knew that someone would bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) The thing is.. we got beat on broken plays , more than a team pounding the rock. Which really skewed the numbers. Pettines defense did not allow for broken plays. Being a higher risk type of D when aggressive . Which was alot ! If Kiko or Lawson went the wrong way or got caught up in blocks it was off to the races. There is some more details hidden in there i suppose. But that was my take. ps the Bills made some great efforts in stopping the run only to get back on the field after 3 or 4 plays last year. Heavier work load based on inefficient rookie Offense maybe ? This is a fair point. As the saying goes, the best defense is a good offense, as seen in the Patriots over the last few years. I think I should also mention that as much as I love Kiko, I really do think he is better suited as a WLB than the MLB he played last year. As to your other point, if Pettine's agressive style leads to more broken plays, and those broken plays leads to big chunks of yardage, then that does deserve a critique. Don't get me wrong. I like Pettine. I wish he had stayed another year and kept working the kinks out of what he started. But no defense is unbeatable. Rex Ryan is probably the best defensive coach the league, and he's never won it all as a head coach. I'm also glass half full on Schwartz. While his time at Detroit didn't turn out many great defenses, the man did a pretty bang up job when he got to just concentrate on running the defense for the Titans. Edited May 31, 2014 by Whitewalker Merriman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 ^Don't forget Schwartz did turn easily the worst team in the NFL into a playoff team. His tenure wasn't overwhelmingly great, but the Lions have been competitive in a tough division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) ^Don't forget Schwartz did turn easily the worst team in the NFL into a playoff team. His tenure wasn't overwhelmingly great, but the Lions have been competitive in a tough division. IMO Schwartz tenure with the Lions they VASTLY underperformed to their talent level. Edited May 31, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 ^Don't forget Schwartz did turn easily the worst team in the NFL into a playoff team. His tenure wasn't overwhelmingly great, but the Lions have been competitive in a tough division. Again, also true. Considering what he started with, a team that had the year before gone 0-16, and to make them competitive in two years is something to note. I see why he got fired, since the Lions really did fall apart when the division had gone to shambles and was ripe for the taking, but now he gets to focus on what he's good at. He as a D-line where the three Pro Bowlers put up over 30 sacks combined. He also has a history of making smaller, speed rushing DE's to work (Jerry Hughes anyone?) On top of that, he has a WLB who should have been rookie of the year and the best run stuffer in the league. Rivers, while not living up to 1st round status, is reportedly a decent contributor and he has some interesting rookie LB talent from the mid to late rouds of the draft that he can slowly bring along behind the starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) IMO Schwartz tenure with the Lions they VASTLY underperformed to their talent level. The last couple of years sure. Especially last year. It's embarrassing that they couldn't win the division last year. The Bears should be embarrassed too, but they've fallen apart three years in a row now. Edited May 31, 2014 by Big C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Malooga Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Keith Ellison is crying somewhere. Rex Ryan is probably the best defensive coach the league, and he's never taken home a ring. What? Rex Ryan took home a ring in 2001, when his Ravens defense set records for fewest points and rushing yards allowed, and while only giving up 23 points in 4 playoff games. Maybe you meant as a Head Coach, but nonetheless, he has won a ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 IMO Schwartz tenure with the Lions they VASTLY underperformed to their talent level. People say this and I can't agree. The Lions have a couple stars, but are utterly lacking everywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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