Bills Fan of St Augustine Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 There is no way that Graham plays as fast as Goodwin regardless of their best times in shorts and on a track. Goodwin blows by CBs while TJ looks pedestrian. Not sure where these times came from but it looks like Graham has lost a step, or three.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) I've seen enough of Graham that I'm ready to let him go. I say we take a WR with our first draft pick - either Evans or Watkins. IMHO, those are two independent decisions. We need a #1 caliber WR. As of now, we don't know if Woods will be that guy but he had a good rookie outing. TJ on the other hand, has had two seasons to show what he has and the showing has been terrible. So, in general, I think we draft a WR fairly high if we believe he has the ability to get open, fight for balls, make catches. The decision to keep or jettison TJ is a separate one. I think he should be given a 3rd season in the hopes he is a late bloomer and becomes a #3 or better. (none of my post is contradicting anything you said) Edited February 22, 2014 by Fan in Chicago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainwampus Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Pro Football Focus had him last place last season and in the bottom 5 this year with the likes of Heyward-Bey and Bess. Heyward-Bey is another perfect example of how all the speed in the world does not always translate to the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 TJ is a track guy playing football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigK14094 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Graham needs to work on his hands, which is an aquired skill. Not out of the question he could do that if he has the will. Also, learning to come back to the ball and other playing skils are also teachable. He has improved for sure, and did make some plays....not enough, but some. that comeback on a bad EJ throw which he turned into a TD was a football play! All hope is not gone, and I would give him another season to develope. The receiver that has to go is Hogan.......should have not made the team as a receiver......he does make the occasional play on special teams, however. So, get another receiver to challenge for #1 or #3 or whatever, as Hogan is never that guy. And, replace Hogan , maybe not even resign him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Goodwin was an Olympic long jumper, not a sprinter. Don't you remember the huge thread and debate I created when I said that he wasn't a sprinter or possessing Olympic speed because he ran long jump and not sprints? The Combine disagrees. Goodwin was under 4.3, Graham was closer to 4.4 The 40 is getting to be over rated. Anything under 4.5 is plenty fast enough, and without the players wearing pads it really doesn't matter much. I've seen guys run 4.3 in a uni and then fall to 4.7 in pads. I've seen guys run 4.5 in a uni and 4.6 in pads. Its as much about power as it is flat speed. TJ Graham 4.29 Marquise Goodwin 4.17 TJ is a track guy playing football. So is Goodwin. Graham needs to work on his hands, which is an aquired skill. Good point that I do not think many people get. It is not working on his "catching" or "hands" which is not necessarily coach able. You can coach awareness, coordination and how to position your hands and body to receive the ball. But, you can't coach catching, you can't coach stone hands or being bad. You can only give them more time and experience to get better and hope your coaching rounds out the edges. Edited February 22, 2014 by jboyst62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Buddy Nix making this choice for him in the third round had everyone perplexed, as when he was announced as the Bills choice in the third. That Mike Mayock fumbled thru his pages of notes, as the NFL network went to a commercial. When they returned all Mayock would say is he had this kid graded as a fifth round pick, simply because he had no other info on him at that time. Nix traded up to draft him too. Graham needs to work on his hands, which is an aquired skill. Not out of the question he could do that if he has the will. Also, learning to come back to the ball and other playing skils are also teachable. He has improved for sure, and did make some plays....not enough, but some. that comeback on a bad EJ throw which he turned into a TD was a football play! All hope is not gone, and I would give him another season to develope. The receiver that has to go is Hogan.......should have not made the team as a receiver......he does make the occasional play on special teams, however. So, get another receiver to challenge for #1 or #3 or whatever, as Hogan is never that guy. And, replace Hogan , maybe not even resign him. Look at how long it took for Josh Reed to develop, and even then he wasn't very good. The Bills wasted a #2 pick on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Look at how long it took for Josh Reed to develop, and even then he wasn't very good. The Bills wasted a #2 pick on him. I don't get the Josh Reed hate, either. He is 5th all time for the Bills in catches while playing with some of the best WR's and worst QB's in history. Source Pro Football Database Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 ....and we're off. Am I going to post here? Yeah I am going to post here. I do not know what the author of the article believes personally about Graham but I think he gives a fair assessment. However, Jerry, you do not seem to give him a fair shake because I am going to go on a limb and say “what we already know” is TJ sucks and is awful and rips the flesh off kittens to feed to his Rottweiler. Yet, reading the conclusion first because I get A.D.D I clearly read: This means to me a few things. We had bad scheming, bad QBing, and a few other points I will touch on first. EJ Manuel struggled to get his reads in and very much struggled to move the ball around to different targets in general. His targets were so quick that it was astonishing how many times Graham got open and was checked off by Manuel. Now, don’t go thinking this means Manuel realized he will probably drop it because Lewis moved the ball to targets more than any QB on our roster. Lewis was the best playing QB in 2013 for the Bills. He did not perform the best but he did play the best for the team to win consistently. Tuel, well, if you really judge anything about the Bills offense when he started …skip. Look, I am not some TJ Graham homer. I am a realist. Going back to Graham you have to remember, he is a speedy WR. [so is Goodwin, I know this – fanboys of “Mr Faux Olympic Speed” don’t need to remind me of this. He is a good player who I think offers a lot to a football team and I am not going to turn this in to a TJ Graham vs. Marquise Goodwin thread, or TJ vs. anyone else. It is a TJ Graham is our #2 WR thread.] Graham races down field quickly and was missed in the reads. Yes, he was targeted but that was when he was in his route and not at a point in which it was valid to complete the pass to him. If you need remember this point how many times did we see everyone whine “he was not even looking at the QB!” That is because the play is not designed to work throwing to Graham only 4 yards in to his 8 yard post/flag, or only 6 yards in to his 12 yard curl. Those were two routes he ran a lot of where the instance occurred – and those were likely many of what the author counted as bad passes. Of many other targets it is clear when watching the film from the rest of the season on the all22 that Graham was checked early in his route and simply skipped. You know what happens there – TJ Graham is never open, never catches a pass, doesn’t make a difference because the QB threw to SJ13 in traffic for a 5 yard gain and SJ13 sitting down before contact. With Lewis we saw many issues with Graham that we saw with Manuel with one difference. Lewis had probably the most uncomfortable experience in the backfield of all Bills QBs. Lewis couldn’t keep his head on straight for DL/LBs in his mask, wanting to look around the field to find his next move to escape and then he may look downfield, too. It’s why he found Chandler – big little guy right up the middle that he couldn’t miss. However, I do want to touch on that arm Lewis has and when he could back up and sling it – it was amazing and something we’ve not seen since JP Losman. A few other points: We do not know Goodwin’s, Hogan’s or others stats We do not know how many “good”, “bad” or “drop” throws were made to other targets. I disagree with his take on protection but I will have to watch it many more times to really get an answer here because I do not want to just watch Grahams OL protection – I want erryones. Some of those passes just should not have been made. I do not know if they were counted as “good” “bad” or “drops” but some of them were just moments where I thought “WTF was QB thinking?” I do not want roast Graham, I do not want to start him @ #2 either, at least not yet. I am willing to give him time. Remember 12-15 years ago when a 3rd round player was given a few seasons to improve – usually by his 3rd and 4th years? Can we not afford to give Graham this time? Is there a reason you’re answering “no?” Is it something to do with “hibby jibby hibby jibby Goodwin deserves time?” Does it really have to be this way? Why do you hate me? You can put both players on the field, for one. For two, Goodwin was banged up quite a bit so I am not quite sure he earned more time when he couldn’t be depended on every snap. What about simply finding a way to use Graham differently? As #3? He hustles, he gives effort and he blocks well. “hibby jibby hibby jibby, he missed that one big block for that sure to be TD (that I cannot remember who it was against but he did).” Yep, he did. And the sky is blue. Graham is entering his 3rd year. Let us see what he can do. I do not expect him to be all-world, or even a top WR in the AFCE at this current rate. But, I do think he can become a more solid contributor to a football team if given the opportunity to do so. Also, Graham and I are registered and Crate and Barrel, Target, and Dollar General. RSVP’s will be going out next month. best post I've read in a while. do you have a link to the TJfan club. I blame most of the offensive problems this year to horrid QB play. You can't rotate that many inexperienced QB's around and expect success. I'm surprised the offense did as well as it did given the QB problems. We need to get a veteran backup this off-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 A good article that could be pertinent to TJ Graham. Maybe the organization is taking the approach suggested by Jerry Angelo as opposed to some fans taking the opposite approach. http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-battle-within.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Graham improved as a route runner, but he cant catch the football. I thought he had a great camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I've seen enough of Graham that I'm ready to let him go. I say we take a WR with our first draft pick - either Evans or Watkins. Or Watkins There is no way that Graham plays as fast as Goodwin regardless of their best times in shorts and on a track. Goodwin blows by CBs while TJ looks pedestrian. Not sure where these times came from but it looks like Graham has lost a step, or three.... he is trying to locate the ball. When you have to turn your body around a couple times whilst wondering what the play was... you will have that appearance .similar to molasses from a jar. Slow .Kid has enthusiasm though. Dont we need CORE special teamers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I don't get the Josh Reed hate, either. He is 5th all time for the Bills in catches while playing with some of the best WR's and worst QB's in history. Source Pro Football Database This list is sobering. A HOF'er, a stud #1 who produced with lousey QBs- no excuses, then a running back. After that a lot of second and third rate talent that either overachieved from nothing or failed to live up to their expectations (Excepting loften) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 The 40 is getting to be over rated. So is Goodwin. "40 over rated" is a ridiculous statement in any sense of context. It is considered a key criteria in million dollar decisions, period. Call anyone a track guy. Graham has been out performed by Goodwin in 2013. Goodwin had more yards per game, more yards per catch, more TDs, more receptions per target all in his rookie year. Same QB I don't expect graham to even make the roster in 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 "40 over rated" is a ridiculous statement in any sense of context. It is considered a key criteria in million dollar decisions, period. Call anyone a track guy. Graham has been out performed by Goodwin in 2013. Goodwin had more yards per game, more yards per catch, more TDs, more receptions per target all in his rookie year. Same QB I don't expect graham to even make the roster in 2014. Chandler had better numbers than both of them. I don't expect Goodwin to make the roster in 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Jabber Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Chandler had better numbers than both of them. I don't expect Goodwin to make the roster in 2014. What crack are you smoking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 What crack are you smoking? Didn't you hear? If one player outperforms another, he's likely to be cut. Thus, Goodwins gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) "40 over rated" is a ridiculous statement in any sense of context. It is considered a key criteria in million dollar decisions, period. Call anyone a track guy. Graham has been out performed by Goodwin in 2013. Goodwin had more yards per game, more yards per catch, more TDs, more receptions per target all in his rookie year. Same QB I don't expect graham to even make the roster in 2014. not only will he make the them but he will see significant time on the field. His assets as a special teamer are valuable and hopefully someone makes a thread about how and why special teams are important. If Marrone turns the the bottom of the roster over every other week you have an entirely new set of special teamers filling ranks. Add in the mess with poor LB's, role players who hardly are used, crap OL depth and DB injuries of 2013 and you have a major reason why ST was aweful. Anyway, I hope this gem comes back in September when he makes the 53 man roster or is traded and makes someone else's. I bet I'm right. Edit: Oh, and yes, the 40 is over rated. Any WR should run sub 4.6, and I would bet all but maybe 5 in the league do run that. There are dozens of WR's that run in the 4.2's and 3's and that doesn't mean anything if you can't catch, can't stay on the field or can't run a route. The NFL combine going on right now will have lots of guys running the 40, but for the WR position and all intents and purposes it means very little. As long as he's a half-a-crap worth of WR he's going to be fast enough whether he is a big Plax type or an Antonio Brown type - they're plenty fast enough and when they're not they can have elusiveness and other abilities that make up for that silly one-tenth of a second. Trust me, one tenth of a second matters on the track not the football field. Edited February 23, 2014 by jboyst62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 This list is sobering. A HOF'er, a stud #1 who produced with lousey QBs- no excuses, then a running back. After that a lot of second and third rate talent that either overachieved from nothing or failed to live up to their expectations (Excepting loften) I thought I posted it already to your reply but it is funny if Peerless Price was hardly a #2 WR by some standards here - no joke, go back to those days. And if Peerless was a lousy WR like most say and just a benefit of good QB's and Eric Moulds... Well, what is Josh Reed? Many said he was hardly a #3 WR. Price Games 84 Starts 71 6 years, 288 catches, 3,772 yards, 13.1 avg, 25 TD's 3.4 catches per game, 44.9 YPG, .3 TD's per game or roughly 1 TD every 3 games Reed Games 115 Starts 52 8 years, 311 catches, 3,575 yards, 11.5 avg, 10 TD's 2.7 Catches per game, 31.09 YPG, .09 TD's per game or roughly 1 TD every 11 games. Of course, looking back on it we do know the history and why these stats speak the way they do. Reed was used in what is traditionally used as a #3 WR. He was used how Wes Welker is used today, or Amendola. We had a lot of promise with him. However, there is no doubt looking back on how good it was when we had Price opposite Moulds. I remember there was a fleeting moment in 2004 and 2005 when we had Price coming back, Moulds on the roster and a young Lee Evans. There was so much potential there, so much that could have been that never was. The board hated all they could on Price at that point and Moulds was "done," while Lee Evans was really fun to watch but we still needed a real #1. Anyway, I think it is stunning looking at our roster and who's caught and done what. Also interesting is where Chandler falls on these historic lists stat wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Worth note, Goodwin's best times appear to be from High School. That would make a lot of sense since for college and national track team his primary event was long jump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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