Crossman Retained

[BigBuff423]

To that point ... as someone said earlier (and I can't disagree) ... strike one was actually hiring the pile of crap. Strike two is retaining him after seeing what he brought to the table over 16 games. The more I stew over this, it doesn't piss me off as much as it worries me.

 

I won't hold Marrone to the fire for hiring him because despite his lousy numbers leading up to the BILLS' hire, who knows what the mitigating circumstances may have been...However, when this team goes from top 10 STs to near the bottom in ONE F-IN season with better overall talent, AND Marrone puts all his credibility eggs in the basket of accountability and does NOT fire Crossman...that's where I draw the line in my support and approval of Marrone...I liked the guy shortly after he was hired and liked the way he handled the season in general (not taking the reigns in play-calling when Hackett didn't seem to get it done was my other pet-peeve) but you cannot live on the sword of accountability and then not be willing to use it when it comes to making an immediate staffing change that appears extremely obvious to everyone that is watching the games.

[Mr. WEO]

Why do I need to tell you anything when Marrone said it himself?

 

My answer to NoSaint is very clear: I'm not nearly as concerned about ST as I am a few other areas. A team like the Bills should be trying to improve in all areas, yes. The vast majority of the resources should go toward offense and defense.

 

Is that more clear?

 

As for info, just because I know certain things, like who made what decision, doesn't mean I know every detail of what goes on behind closed doors.

 

Marrone said nothing.

 

As Beerball pointed out, it would take few "resources" to find a better ST coach. Again, even though it may be the easiest to fix, your claim that since it's 3rd on your "to do" list, it's not a priority makes no sense. A logical approach would be to do the easiest task first. In fact, at this point in the off-season the only thing they can do is get a new ST coach.

[thebandit27]

What resources are you talking about? Marrone's time to consider why a 250lb guy who runs a 4.6 40 ran roughshod over his kick coverage unit? (I think I'm being generous with both his weight and 40 time)

 

If ST is your 3rd option are you considering changing offensive coaches? Defensive coaches? (if not, what are the 'resources' being used for?)

 

Wait, really? Given the context of this statement:

 

A team like the Bills should be trying to improve in all areas, yes. The vast majority of the resources should go toward offense and defense.

 

you don't know what "resources" means? Ok then, in the context of the above, the resources used to improve a football team would be: draft picks, free agent dollars, film study, coaching additions/subtractions, and about a hundred other facets of the game that I know for a fact you already understand and don't need explained to you.

 

If you disagree with me that's fine; I'm not sure what your agenda is with these last 2 posts, however, as you've displayed quite the cogent understanding of the game in the past.

 

Marrone said nothing.

 

As Beerball pointed out, it would take few "resources" to find a better ST coach. Again, even though it may be the easiest to fix, your claim that since it's 3rd on your "to do" list, it's not a priority makes no sense. A logical approach would be to do the easiest task first. In fact, at this point in the off-season the only thing they can do is get a new ST coach.

 

Marrone said, quite clearly, philosophical differences were the reason that Hilliard was let go...that's not nothing.

 

For me, the priorities in fixing this team lie in improving the two phases of the ball that spend 90% of the time on the field, and please don't make a straw man by saying that I claimed Crossman shouldn't be fired--you will not find that anywhere in any of my posts. For some reason, my take on the pitchfork mentality toward the ST coach REALLY bothers you guys...not sure why.

 

I've explained my position, and unless we're at the point where my opinion is offensive or against the TOS, I'm not sure why I need to defend it more so than anyone else.

[Sisyphean Bills]

To that point ... as someone said earlier (and I can't disagree) ... strike one was actually hiring the pile of crap. Strike two is retaining him after seeing what he brought to the table over 16 games. The more I stew over this, it doesn't piss me off as much as it worries me.

 

Third, the Bills did gut the depth on the roster that Buddy built, right? Or was it that Buddy re-built? Anyway, a lot of new faces behind the starting cast, something that was argued for and against back in September.

[26CornerBlitz]

Moorman believes in Crossman’s schemes

 

As we profiled on Buffalobills.com this morning, Brian Moorman wants to keep kicking in Buffalo, but is set to become an unrestricted free agent. While the organization has expressed an intention to make the veteran punter an offer, Moorman knows there are no guarantees. At the same time Moorman called his return to Buffalo the most fun he’s had in the NFL in three years, and he’s a supporter of special teams coordinator Danny Crossman.

 

“I think he did a good job,” Moorman said of Crossman. “He’s coming to a new team and putting in a new scheme. I think just having one more year under his belt with another full offseason and training camp, he’s got good schemes and I think we’ve got good players. I don’t think you can base it off one or two returns. I think we’ve had a good year.”

 

Moorman was instrumental in helping Crossman’s punt unit to cut their average return against from 14.5 yards with Shawn Powell punting to 7.6 yards with Moorman punting.

 

The veteran punter believes they’ll be able to shave some other numbers down on coverage units while also improving their return game themselves.

 

“That’s one of the things that we’ll probably look at throughout the offseason and continue to get better and the schemes that coach Crossman has going in I think are very effective,” said Moorman. “Obviously we take a lot of pride in that and we’ll continue to improve on that as we go.”

[TXBILLSFAN]

Wait, really? Given the context of this statement:

 

A team like the Bills should be trying to improve in all areas, yes. The vast majority of the resources should go toward offense and defense.

 

you don't know what "resources" means? Ok then, in the context of the above, the resources used to improve a football team would be: draft picks, free agent dollars, film study, coaching additions/subtractions, and about a hundred other facets of the game that I know for a fact you already understand and don't need explained to you.

 

If you disagree with me that's fine; I'm not sure what your agenda is with these last 2 posts, however, as you've displayed quite the cogent understanding of the game in the past.

 

 

 

Marrone said, quite clearly, philosophical differences were the reason that Hilliard was let go...that's not nothing.

 

For me, the priorities in fixing this team lie in improving the two phases of the ball that spend 90% of the time on the field, and please don't make a straw man by saying that I claimed Crossman shouldn't be fired--you will not find that anywhere in any of my posts. For some reason, my take on the pitchfork mentality toward the ST coach REALLY bothers you guys...not sure why.

 

I've explained my position, and unless we're at the point where my opinion is offensive or against the TOS, I'm not sure why I need to defend it more so than anyone else.

Bandit --- in my simple mind, I'd replace the coach and see where I am with a different person leading that unit --- I agree there are many other resources at Marrone and the Bills disposal to improve ST --- but, in this case, we are only suggesting utilizing one -- the COACH --- it's that simple ---- in my experience in college and studying the NFL game, ST play, is usually about attitude and energy as much as X's and O's --- attitude reflects leadership and ST took a huge step backward from 2012 ---- I believe that was due to coaching --- so, in your opinion, should the Bills fire their ST coach ?

[NoSaint]

 

I've explained my position, and unless we're at the point where my opinion is offensive or against the TOS, I'm not sure why I need to defend it more so than anyone else.

 

i think the reason people are harping on it is that its not a matter of assessing ability different, or simple agree to disagree difference of opinion -- it genuinely doesnt make any sense to a lot of us even though (i think) i fully grasp the points you are making.

[Wayne Cubed]

i think the reason people are harping on it is that its not a matter of assessing ability different, or simple agree to disagree difference of opinion -- it genuinely doesnt make any sense to a lot of us even though (i think) i fully grasp the points you are making.

 

Does it make any sense that the Raiders retained Bobby April? I mean his ST unit did finish below Crossman.

 

EDIT: Not that I think the Bills should be following the Raiders decisions.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Wayne Cubed

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

i think the reason people are harping on it is that its not a matter of assessing ability different, or simple agree to disagree difference of opinion -- it genuinely doesnt make any sense to a lot of us even though (i think) i fully grasp the points you are making.

 

That's kind of where I am at on it. It is not like you have to pick Crossman or a new LG. Those decisions are independent of one another. Either he should be the ST coach or someone else should.

 

Many of us are advocating that he has proven in his career that he is not a good ST coach. If you feel that with another year it will improve and he has earned that opportunity -fine. To argue that the decision is not important because there are bigger problems is what we are struggling with.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Wait, really? Given the context of this statement:

 

A team like the Bills should be trying to improve in all areas, yes. The vast majority of the resources should go toward offense and defense.

 

you don't know what "resources" means? Ok then, in the context of the above, the resources used to improve a football team would be: draft picks, free agent dollars, film study, coaching additions/subtractions, and about a hundred other facets of the game that I know for a fact you already understand and don't need explained to you.

 

If you disagree with me that's fine; I'm not sure what your agenda is with these last 2 posts, however, as you've displayed quite the cogent understanding of the game in the past.

 

 

 

Marrone said, quite clearly, philosophical differences were the reason that Hilliard was let go...that's not nothing.

 

For me, the priorities in fixing this team lie in improving the two phases of the ball that spend 90% of the time on the field, and please don't make a straw man by saying that I claimed Crossman shouldn't be fired--you will not find that anywhere in any of my posts. For some reason, my take on the pitchfork mentality toward the ST coach REALLY bothers you guys...not sure why.

 

I've explained my position, and unless we're at the point where my opinion is offensive or against the TOS, I'm not sure why I need to defend it more so than anyone else.

The defense spends a hell of a lot less time on the field when the opponent is starting at our 35 yard line after their 250 pound running back made it all the way downfield against our least important unit. Just saying.

 

Does it make any sense that the Raiders retained Bobby April? I mean his ST unit did finish below Crossman.

 

EDIT: Not that I think the Bills should be following the Raiders decisions.

The main difference is that Bobby April actually has a record of successful STs units on his resume. He gets a little more BOD in believing he'll turn it around.

[Wayne Cubed]

The defense spends a hell of a lot less time on the field when the opponent is starting at our 35 yard line after their 250 pound running back made

The main difference is that Bobby April actually has a record of successful STs units on his resume. He gets a little more BOD in believing he'll turn it around.

 

I posted earlier in this thread. Besides his stint in Buffalo, Bobby April has had a mixed bag in terms of ST results and has had quite a few below 20 rankings. And even with his top rated ST units in Buffalo, the team was still a below .500 team. Special teams in general are up and down, with every team.

 

EDIT: And April hasn't had a top ST unit since leaving Buffalo. His Philadelphia teams declined each year.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Wayne Cubed

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

May I share a pet peeve? Special teams are not actually "a third of the game." Crucial at times, yes, but if you consider that a game usually includes 15 or so special teams plays (punts, kickoffs, extra points) and about 100 or so offensive/defensive snaps, the math is way off.

 

I had to get that off my chest.

[jr1]

Ralph should hit Crossman with his pimp cane

[NoSaint]

 

 

Does it make any sense that the Raiders retained Bobby April? I mean his ST unit did finish below Crossman.

 

EDIT: Not that I think the Bills should be following the Raiders decisions.

 

you know theres a STARK difference in the quality of their resumes.

 

without watching the raiders frequently enough to gather the types of problems that made up their issues I will say confidently that hes earned a lot more leash and a lot more benefit of the doubt than crossman has.

[YoloinOhio]

May I share a pet peeve? Special teams are not actually "a third of the game." Crucial at times, yes, but if you consider that a game usually includes 15 or so special teams plays (punts, kickoffs, extra points) and about 100 or so offensive/defensive snaps, the math is way off.

 

I had to get that off my chest.

While I think it is about more than # of snaps (because good/bad ST play can really swing momentum, like a big PR/KR, blocked punt, fumbled return, etc), it is interesting to look at the teams ranked in the top 10 for ST and the bottom 10 this year. 6 of the top 10 ranked ST did not make the playoffs - Balt, ST, Min, Dal, Jax, NYJ. So it is obviously an important part of the game, but not impactful enough to overcome offense or defense. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst

Conversely, only 1 of the top 10 Offenses did not make the playoffs (Chi) and 5 of the top 10 defenses did not make the playoffs (AZ, Buf, NYG,Balt, TB).

 

I just found it interesting comparing these, not trying to defend keeping Crossman.

Edited January 8, 2014 by YoloInTheBlo

[NoSaint]

 

 

I posted earlier in this thread. Besides his stint in Buffalo, Bobby April has had a mixed bag in terms of ST results and has had quite a few below 20 rankings. And even with his top rated ST units in Buffalo, the team was still a below .500 team. Special teams in general are up and down, with every team.

 

EDIT: And April hasn't had a top ST unit since leaving Buffalo. His Philadelphia teams declined each year.

 

but he has had several very good ones, and even in philly "decline" meant middle of the pack. bobby april, especially with the new special teams rules, may not be the quality of coach that he once was - but hes atleast proven he can be a quality coach, so without seeing the issues hes having first hand, ill say that although he might not be the guy for the job any more, there are reasons to believe that discussions about talent of the players, bad luck, etc... might be valid for him.... as it hasnt been a decade of failure with little to no success.

 

theres literally no reason, beyond "anything is possible" to point to in order to say you think crossman turns it around. if youve got something better than that, its a great time to share it - wed all love to have something better, as "anything is possible" really let us down when we accepted it last year.

Edited January 8, 2014 by NoSaint

[Wayne Cubed]

I really don't want to pile on Crossman here because I think the fans have spoken, the team has made its decision, and at this point we might as well accept it and hope for the best, but a construct in my mind compels me to respond to this.

 

The facts you posted show the opposite of what you were trying to establish. Based on those statistics one would most reasonably infer that April is a successful coach with the occasional off year while Crossman is a bad coach who inherits good situations and turns them bad once he comes to town, with the one year where he eeked into the top 10 as the exception rather than the rule.

 

While I agree that given the past results Crossman definitely has turned many a ST's unit bad, I wasn't posting Bobby Aprils ratings to boost up Crossman. I was merely showing that even April has had his up and downs within his own career. He has seen decent ST's go bad (Philadelphia), He has had a yo-yo type team (New Orleans) and had just plainly bad teams (St. Louis). But he did have truly great teams in Buffalo. Special teams in general are up and down around the league.

 

And I agree, Marrone has made his choice and we as fans have to live with it. IMO I don't think keeping Crossman will determine his future.

 

but he has had several very good ones, and even in philly "decline" meant middle of the pack. bobby april, especially with the new special teams rules, may not be the quality of coach that he once was - but hes atleast proven he can be a quality coach, so without seeing the issues hes having first hand, ill say that although he might not be the guy for the job any more, there are reasons to believe that discussions about talent of the players, bad luck, etc... might be valid for him.... as it hasnt been a decade of failure with little to no success.

 

theres literally no reason, beyond "anything is possible" to point to in order to say you think crossman turns it around. if youve got something better than that, its a great time to share it - wed all love to have something better, as "anything is possible" really let us down when we accepted it last year.

 

I don't deny that April has had some good teams. He's had great ST's on craptastic Bill's teams. Didn't change much.

 

I and probably Bandit as well just don't belive that ST's improving or declining will be the reason that the Bills turn it around.

[1B4IDie]

May I share a pet peeve? Special teams are not actually "a third of the game." Crucial at times, yes, but if you consider that a game usually includes 15 or so special teams plays (punts, kickoffs, extra points) and about 100 or so offensive/defensive snaps, the math is way off.

 

I had to get that off my chest.

I agree and I hate that phrase.

If you want to break it down mathematically if say it's 1/5 of the game. Offense is 2/5ths, Defense is 2/5th and special teams is 1/5.

[Gugny]

I agree and I hate that phrase.

If you want to break it down mathematically if say it's 1/5 of the game. Offense is 2/5ths, Defense is 2/5th and special teams is 1/5.

It's 1/3 of every team; it's 1/3 of every game. No, special teams play does not account for 20 min./game, but I don't think that's what anyone means when they say it's 1/3 of them game.

 

It's like in basketball ... foul shooting is 1/3 of the game (along with offense and defense). That's not to say that foul shots make up 1/3 of the points scored in a basketball game.

[offyourocker]

Anybody getting mad about this yet?