Will Marrone be more successful than Chip Kelly?

[K-9]

For us it's all going to come down to whether or not Manuel is the QB that the front office and staff thinks he is.

 

I know that the going notion is that Marrone turned things around at SU, but with the second best QB in SU history he managed to only be marginally competitive in that weak conference never beating anyone of consequence outside of the conference and being fortunately to have played five I-AA teams to log 5 of his 25 wins there.

 

We all know that the single biggest factor when translating things from college to the NFL is the speed of the game.

 

So I get nervous when our newbie coaches talk about how they're going to have the fastest team on the track. It tells me that they don't understand the game in the NFL to think that such an approach is novel and hasn't been tried when it's been tried plenty but has failed every time apart from that speed having the associated football talent.

 

i.e., I'm talking about WRs like Holt and Bruce on the Rams contrasted with WRs like Goodwin on the Bills. The former two entered the NFL as polished WRs whereas Goodwin has no such resume.

 

How soon we forget that Gailey said he was going to have a speed focused offense too and most of you here said that was going to be the case too. Easley, who's just as fast as Goodwin for the most part, and Graham were both signed to bring this incredible speed to the team but we have all seen how that speed rarely translates to the NFL like that.

 

Avion Black was another guy that we drafted years ago that was probably the fastest player in Bills history. He did nothing.

 

It concerns me when the focus is all about speed. To win in this league your players, regardless of scheme, have to out-duel their counterparts on the field, it is exactly that simple.

 

Too many people assume that a "scheme" or system can overcome a huge talent deficit. When coaches do it then it's problematic.

 

Also, there was nothing speed oriented about Marrone's offense at SU either. ...

 

Talent trumps scheme every time.

 

Can't agree with your notion that Marrone and Co. don't understand the nuance of the NFL game. He not only played it but coached it on one of the most innovative staffs in this era. And I don't think anyone can accuse Pettine of not having an appreciation for the NFL game, either.

 

If anything, he wasn't prepared for the lack of speed and talent at the college level after what he was a part of in New Orleans.

 

As to Promo's question, my simple answer is that whatever coach gets the best play out of his QB position will determine their relative success.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited August 16, 2013 by K-9

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Anyone think Doug Marrone will have more success in the NFL than Chip Kelly will in Philly? My hunch is Kelly will pull a Nick Saban and run back to college within two years. Marrone seems to have a better grasp of where he is going with the Bills.

 

Thoughts?

 

PTR

 

He is certainly dealing with a less tolerant and patient fan base.

 

I like to hope Marone becomes the mat successful coach in the game.....???

[Nanker]

Both are very fast by NFL standards.

 

Avion Black ran about a tenth slower than Goodwin and had better receiving credentials in college, yet did nothing in the NFL.

 

Speed without the accompanying football skills is meaningless at the NFL level.

 

But allow me to ask, if he's so blazing fast, what happened at UT? I mean one would think that they'd have been lofting 60 yard TDs at the frequency that fans drink beer, wouldn't you?

 

Or what would be the underlying reason that they did not and why a "receiver" with such incredible speed only averaged 13.1 ypc last year and only 11.4 during his entire UT career which featured only 120 catches in four seasons with his fewest, 26, last season?

 

I mean what, Texas felt that they just didn't need the points?

 

They'd rather use less efficient options?

 

I'd really like to understand. I realize that many think that every player drafted is going to turn into a gem for where he was drafted, but that's been far from the reality for this team for years.

 

The questions are fair ones, I'm just curious why Goodwin's skillset was not utilized more and more effectively at UT, particularly given that differential in speed between those defending him at that level and those that will be defending him at this level is pronounced in favor of defenders in the NFL.

 

So what, specifically, was it that limited this tremendous talent in the receiving department at Texas then, IYO of course?

 

Help me out here if I'm not seeing a WR that did little at UT not lighting up the NFL.

 

As to his value in returns, there too, how come he only had one KR for a TD at UT and even that in his freshman year five seasons ago now? What limited him against players that weren't nearly as fast as those that he'll be facing now in the NFL on coverage?

 

I fully understand that he returned a KR for a TD, but against whom on coverage? The best that Indy had to offer? I don't think so. Maybe some of those slower players in college that won't make NFL rosters anywhere?

 

As well, can we then say that every player that's ever returned a KO for a TD in his first or second preseason game went on to stardom as such in the NFL?

 

Lastly, did we have a problem w/ our KO and P returns last season? Because as I see it McKelvin, who can't do anything else, and Smith, ditto there seemingly, along with Rogers and Easley who also can't do anything else, had us ranked 1st in PR avg. last season and 4th in KR avg.

 

Or am I mistaken?

 

These are fair questions whether you like them or not sorry to inform you.

 

I'm very curious to your or others' [serious] answers. Yes, I realize that "I'm a troll" and that "I want the team to fail," fine, yeah yeah, I get it, but I'm interested in serious answers to those questions.

 

I've answered this already in another thread. He was practicing for the Olympics during his Senior season's Spring practice and did not practice with the team until way late. The coach got a hardon and he saw very little action his Senior season. He ran track all through college and that took away from his practice time with the football team. Believe it or don't, but there's a legit reason he didn't get a lot of playing time. Whether his coach took a burn or just felt he wasn't knowledgable enough because he didn't practice much. He bristles though at being called a Track Runner that plays football. He thinks of himself as a football player. It's been in the news, you can look it up.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Nanker

[thr_wedge]

UT had very inconsistent QB play, a terrible offensive scheme, and a HC that needs to leave. It was a very frustrating season to watch.

[chris heff]

 

 

Didn't I say that?

 

Oh yeah, I did, that it's not an apples-to-apples comp because of that.

 

Still, the NCG, Fiesta Bowl, and 2 Rose Bowls in four season also isn't posting two losing records and barely eking into the latest and greatest in also-ran bowls of the Pinstripe bowl digging well below the 50% mark in the caliber of schools that get invited, are they?

 

Or do you think that a bowl game is a bowl game and the Pinstripe Bowl just as important as whichever bowl hosts the NCG?

 

 

 

And you know this how?

 

I suppose that you think Brady's only good because of Belicheat too then?

 

 

 

Fair, so for what reason does Marrone have better odds of succeeding? ... other than because the forum consensus is that he will.

 

 

 

 

 

Very fair both of you. I agree as well on the emotional side.

 

Nevertheless, that's akin to "because I said so," wouldn't you say?

 

Some people really want to debate the factual merits tho but some posters won't have it. Those of us wanting to do that don't understand why not.

I know it because Marrone would have known it. Which means he would have drafted Nassib.

 

 

[SPILLERmadeUmiss]

I think they are both going to be successful as long as they get the time they need to build the team the way they need it. There will be ups and downs and maybe more downs than ups early on. As Aristotle (I think) said, patience is bitter but its fruit is sweet.

[chris heff]

 

 

Both are very fast by NFL standards.

 

Avion Black ran about a tenth slower than Goodwin and had better receiving credentials in college, yet did nothing in the NFL.

 

Speed without the accompanying football skills is meaningless at the NFL level.

 

But allow me to ask, if he's so blazing fast, what happened at UT? I mean one would think that they'd have been lofting 60 yard TDs at the frequency that fans drink beer, wouldn't you?

 

Or what would be the underlying reason that they did not and why a "receiver" with such incredible speed only averaged 13.1 ypc last year and only 11.4 during his entire UT career which featured only 120 catches in four seasons with his fewest, 26, last season?

 

I mean what, Texas felt that they just didn't need the points?

 

They'd rather use less efficient options?

 

I'd really like to understand. I realize that many think that every player drafted is going to turn into a gem for where he was drafted, but that's been far from the reality for this team for years.

 

The questions are fair ones, I'm just curious why Goodwin's skillset was not utilized more and more effectively at UT, particularly given that differential in speed between those defending him at that level and those that will be defending him at this level is pronounced in favor of defenders in the NFL.

 

So what, specifically, was it that limited this tremendous talent in the receiving department at Texas then, IYO of course?

 

Help me out here if I'm not seeing a WR that did little at UT not lighting up the NFL.

 

As to his value in returns, there too, how come he only had one KR for a TD at UT and even that in his freshman year five seasons ago now? What limited him against players that weren't nearly as fast as those that he'll be facing now in the NFL on coverage?

 

I fully understand that he returned a KR for a TD, but against whom on coverage? The best that Indy had to offer? I don't think so. Maybe some of those slower players in college that won't make NFL rosters anywhere?

 

As well, can we then say that every player that's ever returned a KO for a TD in his first or second preseason game went on to stardom as such in the NFL?

 

Lastly, did we have a problem w/ our KO and P returns last season? Because as I see it McKelvin, who can't do anything else, and Smith, ditto there seemingly, along with Rogers and Easley who also can't do anything else, had us ranked 1st in PR avg. last season and 4th in KR avg.

 

Or am I mistaken?

 

These are fair questions whether you like them or not sorry to inform you.

 

I'm very curious to your or others' [serious] answers. Yes, I realize that "I'm a troll" and that "I want the team to fail," fine, yeah yeah, I get it, but I'm interested in serious answers to those questions.

 

Do you have any idea the style of offense Texas played last year?

 

Did you ever consider that the offense and supporting cast didn't fit Goodwin's skill set?

 

Did you know that the Texas QB,David Ash, was a sophomore?

 

Did you know that there are some that question Ash's arm strength and accuracy?

 

Let see where have I seen a speedy receiver being under utilized because of a weak armed inaccurate QB?

 

Oh and by the way no one, and I mean no one, no matter how fast their receivers are throws the ball 60 yards every play. It would be moronic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've answered this already in another thread. He was practicing for the Olympics during his Senior season's Spring practice and did not practice with the team until way late. The coach got a hardon and he saw very little action his Senior season. He ran track all through college and that took away from his practice time with the football team. Believe it or don't, but there's a legit reason he didn't get a lot of playing time. Whether his coach took a burn or just felt he wasn't knowledgable enough because he didn't practice much. He bristles though at being called a Track Runner that plays football. He thinks of himself as a football player. It's been in the news, you can look it up.

And this

[reddogblitz]

Speed without the accompanying football skills is meaningless at the NFL level.

.........................

 

But allow me to ask, if he's so blazing fast, what happened at UT? I mean one would think that they'd have been lofting 60 yard TDs at the frequency that fans drink beer, wouldn't you?

As to his value in returns, there too, how come he only had one KR for a TD at UT and even that in his freshman year five seasons ago now? What limited him against players that weren't nearly as fast as those that he'll be facing now in the NFL on coverage?

.........................

 

I fully understand that he returned a KR for a TD, but against whom on coverage? The best that Indy had to offer? I don't think so. Maybe some of those slower players in college that won't make NFL rosters anywhere?

.........................

Lastly, did we have a problem w/ our KO and P returns last season? Because as I see it McKelvin, who can't do anything else, and Smith, ditto there seemingly, along with Rogers and Easley who also can't do anything else, had us ranked 1st in PR avg. last season and 4th in KR avg.

.........................

 

I'm very curious to your or others' [serious] answers. Yes, I realize that "I'm a troll" and that "I want the team to fail," fine, yeah yeah, I get it, but I'm interested in serious answers to those questions.

We've seen a lot of guys with killer speed fail in the NFL if they can't catch. Renaldo Neamiah for example. TJ Graham if he doesn't step up. Others who had killer speed and succeeded like Bob Hayes for example. We'll find out which Goodwin is.

 

I was wondering why Goodwin didn't get any snaps at WR Sunday? I read about him catching bombs all practice long at the Fish. I wonder why he didn't get in? I hope he gets in tonight.

 

The KO was nice yeah. But I agree that is probably our smallest need coming out of last year. We're stacked with return men. He's gotta do it at WR too.

 

Should be fun tonight.

 

Go BILLS !!

[SPILLERmadeUmiss]

We've seen a lot of guys with killer speed fail in the NFL if they can't catch. Renaldo Neamiah for example. TJ Graham if he doesn't step up. Others who had killer speed and succeeded like Bob Hayes for example. We'll find out which Goodwin is.

 

I was wondering why Goodwin didn't get any snaps at WR Sunday? I read about him catching bombs all practice long at the Fish. I wonder why he didn't get in? I hope he gets in tonight.

 

The KO was nice yeah. But I agree that is probably our smallest need coming out of last year. We're stacked with return men. He's gotta do it at WR too.

 

Should be fun tonight.

 

Go BILLS !!

 

I don't know how good Goodwin will ultimately be, but he's a good football player. More than just a KR. He may be a role player rather than a high-volume player from scrimmage, but he'll be an important high-impact role player like Az Hakim was back in the day (but with healthy knees.)

[C.Biscuit97]

Why, are you watching this Eagles game? See? I told you guys guys they sucked. The only reason they are winning?

 

Cam Newton 8/17 112 yards after playing the whole half. Cam Newton is the guy that I am praying EJ doesn't turn into.

 

Matt Barkley <<<<< EJ Manuel. Period. Paragraph. Page.

 

On top of that, the Eagles D is horrible.

 

IF Chip Kelly stays, it will be because he is able to fix the D over the next 2 years, and get Michael Vick to start playing QB like an adult. That may be too many results to expect from a college coach. EDIT: I'm not saying that Vick sucks. I am saying that he still plays like a rookie too often.

 

And, I'm a little tired of ignorant analysts calling Marrone a "college coach". Marrone spent 7 years in the NFL, 3 of which as a O coordinator. That's a major distinction from Nick Saban/Stever Spurrier type guys.

 

I will end with: Eagles Sack Fumble just happened. :lol:

 

Yeah, I'd hate if EJ won rookie of the year while setting numerous Qb records his first 2 years in the league. Are people insane? Cam is an absolute animal. I'd be doing backflips if EJ was close to that good.

[BillsBytheBay]

I think Brady made belichec. I think Marrone made Nassib. You CAN'T really think that was a comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I'd hate if EJ won rookie of the year while setting numerous Qb records his first 2 years in the league. Are people insane? Cam is an absolute animal. I'd be doing backflips if EJ was close to that good.

agreed

 

 

 

I don't know how good Goodwin will ultimately be, but he's a good football player. More than just a KR. He may be a role player rather than a high-volume player from scrimmage, but he'll be an important high-impact role player like Az Hakim was back in the day (but with healthy knees.)

that, and all I've heard is he has hands, and can jump.

[jumbalaya]

Cam Newton 8/17 112 yards after playing the whole half. Cam Newton is the guy that I am praying EJ doesn't turn into.

 

 

 

?? You think a half game by Cam Newton in a preseason game defines him? Who do you pray to? Thor?

[SPILLERmadeUmiss]

Cam Newton 8/17 112 yards after playing the whole half. Cam Newton is the guy that I am praying EJ doesn't turn into.

 

 

 

?? You think a half game by Cam Newton in a preseason game defines him? Who do you pray to? Thor?

 

Please let EJ be Cam Newton. Please!

 

And, he'd be Cam Newton with BETTER weapons!

[K-9]

Goodwin is a football player that became a track star. He is not a track star trying to become a football player.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I'll be a homer and just say yes

 

Please let EJ be better than Cam Newton. Please!

 

And, he'd be Cam Newton with BETTER weapons!

fixed it for you.

[Fan in San Diego]

Of course ...who's Chip Kelly?

 

Jim's other brother.

[SPILLERmadeUmiss]

I'll be a homer and just say yes

 

fixed it for you.

 

Better would be fine, but Newton is a damn good QB. Unlike all the other child stars, he went to a crud team. EJ's walking in with better weapons than Newton's ever had.

 

I'll take Cam as my QB any day of the week. Not saying I'm unhappy with the new QB talent we have. I'm very hopeful.

[Pitta]

Chip will be better because the Eagles are a far better organization than the Bills.

 

/thread

[Nanker]

A little follow-up from what I posted earlier wrt the up-tempo game, and Kelly's "position" as the ONE who's bringing it to the NFL this year.

 

That said, the up-tempo game is beginning to make noise as the lead practitioners of it - Maronne and Kelly are beginning to be noticed. Here's some Carolina blow-back on last night's game:

http://profootballta...eagles-offense/

The Iggles ran 69 plays last night and 86 in week one.

For the record, The Bills ran 85 plays in week one.

 

Well, after two preseason games - and yes, it's a small sampling to be sure - the total number of plays by The Bills and The Eagles stands at:

 

Bills 163 plays for 5.1 yard average 31:38 minutes average TOP

Iggles 155 plays for 5.5 yard average 29:51 minutes average TOP

 

After The Bills get through kicking the **** out of their opponents this year, I hope Maronne gets the credit he'll be due.

[ganesh]

Cheers to the most honest post of the day

+1. Who cares who is coaching the rest of the 31 teams. Marrone and his staff is giving us a small hope, a ray of sunshine peeping through those dark clouds of the past decade...Let us hope he brings sunshine to this downtrodden franchise for a change!!!! Go Bills!