Rooneys Pittsburgh vs Ralph

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Pittsburgh small city ,former steel town . Has same economy . Has new stadium. Not sharing home games with anybody,never will.How can the Rooneys under similar conditions,still make it work ? Winning product year after year. Go figure. Yes the unemployment rate is at 10 percent in my area in pa.

[BillnutinHouston]

One answer is Pittsburgh's superior front office, which has produced a far superior on-field product. Another is Pittsburgh's far stronger demographics/buying power. In a 2009 ranking of US cities' buying power, Pittsburgh ranked 29th while Buffalo plodded along at a distant 55th.

 

My link

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Cmon somebody....I hear crickets chirping.

 

One answer is Pittsburgh's superior front office, which has produced a far superior on-field product. Another is Pittsburgh's far stronger demographics/buying power. In a 2009 ranking of US cities' buying power, Pittsburgh ranked 29th while Buffalo plodded along at a distant 55th.

 

My link

Small and smaller towns around Pitt. Redneck America. I`m living it.

[Best Player Available]

Cmon somebody....I hear crickets chirping.

I have cousins there, and my dad was born near Mckees rocks. I guess your comment on similar economies is a little surprising to me.

I think the urban renewal in Pittsburgh is light years ahead of Buffalo. Unemployment I don't know, but I like going to Pittsburgh occasionally. The Roonies seem to have Lombardi's more ingrained in their mindset, for many decades unlike Ralph. My observation only.

[Charles Romes]

Maybe its because when it came time to build a stadium they did not blow the bank. They built a sensible stadium for $300M with great views and open air so the game would be played where it was meant to be: outside.

[Dr. Fong]

The Rooneys ran their franchise like they wanted to win. Ralph has for the majority of his years run his franchise like a money maker. We got super lucky in the 90s. Take that era away and the Bills NFL is pretty damn abysmal.

[Buffaloed in Pa]

The Rooneys ran their franchise like they wanted to win. Ralph has for the majority of his years run his franchise like a money maker. We got super lucky in the 90s. Take that era away and the Bills NFL is pretty damn abysmal.

It is what it is. I think you nailed it. Toronto ? Put a winning team on the field. Seeya Toronto. Simple.

[BRAWNDO]

Pittsburgh small city ,former steel town . Has same economy . Has new stadium. Not sharing home games with anybody,never will.How can the Rooneys under similar conditions,still make it work ? Winning product year after year. Go figure. Yes the unemployment rate is at 10 percent in my area in pa.

 

 

They do a better job picking coaches, Chan excluded of course. They have sold out every game for the past forty years dating back to Nov 1972. They have not had lost decades of futility like the Bills had during the 1970's and 2000's. Geography does not hamper them as much as it does the Bills. WNY has Canada to the West and North, to the East I would say that the closer you get to Syracuse the more Jets and Giants Fans appear. To the South once you hit the PA border, you are in Steelers Country. PIT pulls fans from Central PA, Northwest PA, Southwest PA, Southeast Ohio, and West Virginia. I realize that the Greater Toronto Area has a population of 6.5 million, and the Bills are working increasing their market share, but they have a ways to go. A tradition of winning, a larger fan base and a more vibrant downtown help contribute to the success of the team in PIT.

[2003Contenders]

One word: stability. Their front office has remained very consistent, and over the course of the last 43 years they have had exactly 3 head coaches: all of whom won Super Bowls.

[BRAWNDO]

Plus when it comes down to choosing who stays, your director of football operations or your head coach it helps to make the right decision.

[JuanGuzman]

Thanks tips. But these type of points are silly to me..... Its like saying that if you get spanked as a kid it would hurt.

 

The Steeler's are a model franchise -- by almost any metric the Steelers are one of the most successful teams in NFL history. If the Bills had as long and as recent of a winning of history as the Steelers I'm sure the franchise would be on sounder financial ground.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

One answer is Pittsburgh's superior front office, which has produced a far superior on-field product. Another is Pittsburgh's far stronger demographics/buying power. In a 2009 ranking of US cities' buying power, Pittsburgh ranked 29th while Buffalo plodded along at a distant 55th.

 

My link

The Pittsburgh area us considerably better off than the Buffalo area… hell even Detroit and Cleveland are better off.

 

The second big factor is winning. The Bills have been a mediocre to poor organization for most of their history.

 

Maybe its because when it came time to build a stadium they did not blow the bank. They built a sensible stadium for $300M with great views and open air so the game would be played where it was meant to be: outside.

And they built it in the city center, where stadiums should be built.

 

 

[KRC]

I talked to Dan Rooney about this before he became ambassador. I specifically brought the issue of small-market cities and their ability to financially compete. His answer was that you need to find other and more creative ways of generating revenue to compete. He had no sympathy for any owner who says that they cannot compete financially. He found ways to do it. There are no excuses.

 

As far as a winning tradition, part of it comes from the attitude in the front office. Ron Wolf mentioned that to me when we were talking about how he changed things in Green Bay when he arrived. They had a culture of losing. His first task was to change the attitude. Don't think of yourself as substandard and not able to compete with the larger cities. You can win and you will win if everyone has the proper attitude. If not, there are plenty of other people who are willing to do your job.

 

I saw that attitude in Pittsburgh when I was there. The first thing you see when you arrive in the offices was a glass-enclosed room that housed the Lombardi Trophies that they won. That is the first thing you see when you arrive and the last thing you see when you leave. It hits you immediately. Success is expected. The walls are lined with team photos and photos of prominent players. History is very important to them.

[Just in Atlanta]

Rooney isn't cheap.

 

[dwight in philly]

The Rooneys ran their franchise like they wanted to win. Ralph has for the majority of his years run his franchise like a money maker. We got super lucky in the 90s. Take that era away and the Bills NFL is pretty damn abysmal.

exactly...

[zonabb]

The Pittsburgh area us considerably better off than the Buffalo area… hell even Detroit and Cleveland are better off.

 

The second big factor is winning. The Bills have been a mediocre to poor organization for most of their history.

 

 

And they built it in the city center, where stadiums should be built.

 

Pittsburgh had an economy that wasn't entirely manufacturing and industrial so when our national economy transitioned to a knowledge and service economy, it had the colleges, foundations (huge asset), and diversification in their local labor market to do OK.

 

As for buffalo being worse off than cleveland and Detroit, that's highly debatable. Cleveland (city) is bleeding residents and regionally like Buffalo they're shedding jobs. Same with Detroit but I would argue its in a more downward trend and no region has been more busted by the last 10 years than Detroit.

 

Also, and this is fundamentally important, all three of those regions have at least double the population as Buffalo. From a supply and demand standpoint, they all have about the same number of available seats in their stadiums (supply) but way more people to make the demand higher. My point is, despite all four struggling in some ways, Buffalo's position with the smallest population is tenuous at best in the long run.

 

As for the team, our owner sucks and Pittsburgh's doesn't. The bills have never one and there is only one common element.... RW. Pittsburgh has multiple Super Bowls And one common element, the Rooneys. To me it's that simple.

[Mr. WEO]

The Pittsburgh area us considerably better off than the Buffalo area… hell even Detroit and Cleveland are better off.

 

The second big factor is winning. The Bills have been a mediocre to poor organization for most of their history.

 

 

And they built it in the city center, where stadiums should be built.

 

Have you been to Detroit? There is no big city in this country that looks like it.

[Lurker]

Pittsburgh small city ,former steel town . Has same economy . Has new stadium. Not sharing home games with anybody,never will.How can the Rooneys under similar conditions,still make it work ? Winning product year after year. Go figure. Yes the unemployment rate is at 10 percent in my area in pa.

Per the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, the Pittsburgh metro area has more than twice the personal income of the Buffalo area ($100.7 billion vs. $43.4 billion in 2010) and is larger than the Buffalo and Rochester areas combined ($85.5 billion).

 

The Pittsburgh metro area's 2010 population (2,357,951) was more than 167,000 larger than the Buffalo and Rochester metros combined (2,190,016).

 

Somewhat of an advantage in selling tix, wouldn't you say...

Edited May 24, 2012 by Lurker

[JohnC]

Per the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, the Pittsburgh metro area has more than twice the personal income of the Buffalo area ($100.7 billion vs. $43.4 billion in 2010) and is larger than the Buffalo and Rochester areas combined ($85.5 billion).

 

The Pittsburgh metro area's 2010 population (2,357,951) was more than 167,000 larger than the Buffalo and Rochester metros combined (2,190,016).

 

Somewhat of an advantage in selling tix, wouldn't you say...

 

What does the size and income of the market have to do with making quality football decisions? Hiring the congenial Marv Levy as a GM was very odd. Then replacing him with a marketing specialist was a tad unusual. The owner and the people he personally hired made a lot of bad decisions that resulted in a long term rut of mediocrity.

 

There are a variety of ways in determining a market size. When the canadian market is included with the market east towards Rochester and beyond and the southern tier market the size of the market is more than adequate to handle an NFL franchise.

 

The truth of the matter is that during its more than half century of its existence the franchise has been poorly managed.

There are too many examples that prove that success on the field has little to do with money and the size of the market. It's mostly about the caliber of ownership and the type of quality organization he puts in place.

Edited May 24, 2012 by JohnC

[Buffaloed in Pa]

I talked to Dan Rooney about this before he became ambassador. I specifically brought the issue of small-market cities and their ability to financially compete. His answer was that you need to find other and more creative ways of generating revenue to compete. He had no sympathy for any owner who says that they cannot compete financially. He found ways to do it. There are no excuses.

 

As far as a winning tradition, part of it comes from the attitude in the front office. Ron Wolf mentioned that to me when we were talking about how he changed things in Green Bay when he arrived. They had a culture of losing. His first task was to change the attitude. Don't think of yourself as substandard and not able to compete with the larger cities. You can win and you will win if everyone has the proper attitude. If not, there are plenty of other people who are willing to do your job.

 

I saw that attitude in Pittsburgh when I was there. The first thing you see when you arrive in the offices was a glass-enclosed room that housed the Lombardi Trophies that they won. That is the first thing you see when you arrive and the last thing you see when you leave. It hits you immediately. Success is expected. The walls are lined with team photos and photos of prominent players. History is very important to them.

This

[Lurker]

What does the size and income of the market have to do with making quality football decisions?

You must have missed the OP's statement "Pittsburgh small city, former steel town. Has same economy."

 

If he wanted to acknowledge that the Rooney's are strong football people, fine--that's a given and no astute NFL fan would dispute the fact.

 

But the 'same market' point is flat out wrong and has no bearing on comparisons to the Bills issues with selling tickets...

Edited May 24, 2012 by Lurker

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Nothing's changed in this discussion.

 

Two factors:

 

Better ownership

 

Bigger markets

[CardinalScotts]

Plus when it comes down to choosing who stays, your director of football operations or your head coach it helps to make the right decision.

 

its been the drafting- they draft very very well, they rarely spend in free agency because they don't have to make up for poor drafts.

In addition they play hard nosed defensive football, easier to find defensive players than offensive

[JohnC]

You must have missed the OP's statement "Pittsburgh small city, former steel town. Has same economy."

 

If he wanted to acknowledge that the Rooney's are strong football people, fine--that's a given and no astute NFL fan would dispute the fact.

 

[but the 'same market' point is flat out wrong and has no bearing on comparisons to the Bills issues with selling tickets...

 

The Bills' fan support is exceptional considering the fact that the team has been mediocre for more than a decade. If you put out a competitive product on the field the fans will correspondingly respond. I'll repeat what I said in the prior post that western NY''s demographics have little to do with how the fan base responds. The caliber of the team's ownership and organization have more to do with the level of fan support.

 

There has been a lot of positive activity in this offseason from the draft to free agency signings. The early ticket purchases show that the fans are positively responding to the organization's moves. The market size of the region is more than sufficient to support an NFL franchise.

Edited May 25, 2012 by JohnC

[BiggieScooby]

Pittsburgh has had stability at head coaching and made better front office decisions.

[BillnutinHouston]

The early ticket purchases show that the fans are positively responding to the organization's moves.

 

Yes, but to what degree compared to other teams' season ticket bases? Are they up to maybe 45,000 after a stellar offseason? Sorry but that number doesn't impress me.

[BillnutinHouston]

The market size of the region is more than sufficient to support an NFL franchise.

 

Honestly, the general public lacks the facts to prove or disprove this statement.

 

It's fine for any fan to casually throw this statement out there, but unfortunately, "any fan" is not the one who will set the threshold in the real world - it's the monied investors who want TOP return on their investment. Being "sufficient" might be enough for Ralph, but how do you know it's enough for the next investor? Time will tell, but the INVESTORS will be the judge, not the fans thinking with their hearts. So kudos to Ralph for trying to level the playing field and increase the sufficiency of the WNY market to the next investor.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Yes, but to what degree compared to other teams' season ticket bases? Are they up to maybe 45,000 after a stellar offseason? Sorry but that number doesn't impress me.

Agree with your point and will add that you also have to take into account the cost of tickets… the Bills have the lowest ticket prices in the NFL… and that hasn't been mentioned yet in this topic but is a big part of the issue (market strength).

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

The #1 reason the Steelers are a great organization is because the Rooney's go through an extensive interview process when hiring someone, and they then back away and let thos people do their job. Ralph needs to be involved on a daily basis.

 

And with that philosphy came great success. With the success the Steelers brand became national. The Steeler generate more money being national. The Bills could possibly be like the Steelers right now if Ralph stayed away from Polian.

 

The Steelers as a franchise are worth like 2-3 hundred million more than the Bills.

Edited May 25, 2012 by TheTruthHurts

[Cson76]

One major factor that is being missed is Pittsburgh has a strong corporate backing compared to Buffalo. Buffalo is very, very light in corporate dollars with zero major corporate headquarters. Corporate dollars matters when it comes to selling boxes and suites at a higher dollar value.

 

Granted, even if we did, Ralph still wouldn't sell stadium naming rights.

[Lurker]

The Bills' fan support is exceptional considering the fact that the team has been mediocre for more than a decade. If you put out a competitive product on the field the fans will correspondingly respond.

At some ofthe least expensive ticket prices in the NFL (or pro sports, for that matter). Putting fannys in the seats is one thing--getting revenue comparable to what other teams can generate is another.

 

As other posters have mentioned, the lack of corporate suite prospects in WNY, as well as the personal income differential puts the Bills behind larger NFL markets. Scalper prices for each team are another reflection of this trend.

 

Sure, it starts with winning. But having an income base to tap is also critically important.

 

I wonder how Bills fans would react if Ralph asked them to pay 25% more per ticket--the difference between what Pittsburgh charges ($74.32) and what Buffalo seats go for ($59.19) on average?

[JohnC]

Honestly, the general public lacks the facts to prove or disprove this statement.

 

It's fine for any fan to casually throw this statement out there, but unfortunately, "any fan" is not the one who will set the threshold in the real world - it's the monied investors who want TOP return on their investment. Being "sufficient" might be enough for Ralph, but how do you know it's enough for the next investor? Time will tell, but the INVESTORS will be the judge, not the fans thinking with their hearts. So kudos to Ralph for trying to level the playing field and increase the sufficiency of the WNY market to the next investor.

 

I'm not against expanding the current market north or anywhere else. My general point is that the region, including the expanded market, is more than capable of financially sustaining an NFL franchise. How do I know? It has done so for half a century. The current owner is in the middle of the pack when calculating the operating income.

 

The way the NFL financial system is structured a large portion of the revenue is shared to the point that markets such as Pitt, Green Bay, Balt, Minnesota, Cinc, St. Louis, Oakland are more than capable of competing with the bigger markets if the teams are managed properly.

 

Whether the Bills remain in the region depends not on the issue whether the team is viable here, because it is. The issue is decided by who wins the bid when the team is auctioned off after the owner passess.

[Lurker]

I'm not against expanding the current market north or anywhere else. My general point is that the region, including the expanded market, is more than capable of financially sustaining an NFL franchise. How do I know? It has done so for half a century. The current owner is in the middle of the pack when calculating the operating income.

Due almost entirely to a lack of debt service due to Ralph's one-in-a-lifetime membership in the Foolish Club.

 

We better hope anybody spending $800 million to buy the Bills does so out of petty cash...

[JohnC]

Due almost entirely to a lack of debt service due to Ralph's one-in-a-lifetime membership in the Foolish Club.

 

We better hope anybody spending $800 million to buy the Bills does so out of petty cash...

 

A portion of the original discussion dealt to why the Bills struggled so much compared to similar or somewhat similar sized markets. I and a number of people made the point that the makeup of the market had little to do with the long term failings on the field. Poor decisions made by the owner in staffing the football operations and organizational operation are the primary reason why the team's historical record is more losing than winning. I stand by that obvious observation.

 

I agree that if the Bills remain in the region after the owner passess there are going to be financial challenges. A lot of those challenges will be due to the fact that the current owner has not contributed a dime to upgrading the stadium while other owners have made sizeable contributions to either a new or upgraded facility. KC should be the model for how to handle the upgrading of a facility.

 

There is no doubt that ticket prices will have to go up if the team remains. And there is no doubt that the public entities will have to agree to bear the brunt of those costs.

 

There are major financial challenges that will need to be addressed when this owner leaves the scene. What I know for certain is that it won't get done if a similar type of owner replaces the current owner who only believes in taking out and not putting in to make the project work.

Edited May 25, 2012 by JohnC

[Billsrhody]

Essentially the Steelers have done everything right and the Bills have done everything wrong (at least in the past decade).

 

These to franchises serve as a perfect, "what to do" vs "what not to do" in smaller markets.

[Canks]

buffalo is closer to canada, that's why we have the home game in Toronto and cities like Pittsburg and NY don't. DUH

[Lurker]

A portion of the original discussion dealt to why the Bills struggled so much compared to similar or somewhat similar sized markets.

And I continue to contend that the OP's point that Pittsburgh and Buffalo are similar markets is flawed:

 

2010 Metro Area Personal Income ($ Billions)

 

New York City__________$1,028.6

Los Angeles_____________$561.1

Chicago________________$420.1

Washington_____________$321.6

Philadelphia_____________$281.8

Dallas__________________$264.2

Houston________________$263.0

San Francisco-Oakland___$257.5

Boston_________________$252.7

Miami__________________$233.0

Atlanta_________________$202.6

Seattle_________________$169.3

Detroit_________________$163.9

Minneapolis_____________$153.8

Phoenix________________$151.7

San Diego______________$141.7

Baltimore_______________$133.4

Denver_________________$119.7

St. Louis_______________$116.9

Tampa_________________$103.2

Pittsburgh_____________$100.7

Kansas City_____________$84.8

Cincinnati_______________$84.6

Cleveland_______________$84.1

Milwaukee/Green Bay_____$78.3

Charlotte________________$68.6

Indianapolis______________$68.3

Nashville________________$64.0

Jacksonville______________$53.3

New Orleans_____________$49.9

BUFFALO_______________$43.4

 

Source: U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis

[JohnC]

And I continue to contend that the OP's point that Pittsburgh and Buffalo are similar markets is flawed:

 

2010 Metro Area Personal Income ($ Billions)

 

New York City__________$1,028.6

Los Angeles_____________$561.1

Chicago________________$420.1

Washington_____________$321.6

Philadelphia_____________$281.8

Dallas__________________$264.2

Houston________________$263.0

San Francisco-Oakland___$257.5

Boston_________________$252.7

Miami__________________$233.0

Atlanta_________________$202.6

Seattle_________________$169.3

Detroit_________________$163.9

Minneapolis_____________$153.8

Phoenix________________$151.7

San Diego______________$141.7

Baltimore_______________$133.4

Denver_________________$119.7

St. Louis_______________$116.9

Tampa_________________$103.2

Pittsburgh_____________$100.7

Kansas City_____________$84.8

Cincinnati_______________$84.6

Cleveland_______________$84.1

Milwaukee/Green Bay_____$78.3

Charlotte________________$68.6

Indianapolis______________$68.3

Nashville________________$64.0

Jacksonville______________$53.3

New Orleans_____________$49.9

BUFFALO_______________$43.4

 

Source: U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis

 

You are missing my point that the Bills' market, including the added canadian market, is more than adequate to sustain an NFL franchise. I'm not debating the issue that the Pitts market is wealthier than the Buffalo market.

 

The current owner has made approximately a quarter of a billion $$$ over the last eight years. He has done just fine in the market he so much whines about.

 

I'm also acknowledging the obviouos that if the team stays in the region when he leaves the scene there is going to be a major change in how the team is operated. For one, the ticket pricing is going to go up. The canadian marketing will also have to be more aggressively tapped into.

 

There is nothing unique about the financial challenges that a Buffalo team has to contend with. Your chart deals with the personal income of the various regions. That doesn't necessarily translate into how a particular franchise is supported. San Diego could possibly be moved to LA because of financial issues. Phoenix is not known for its rabid support of its franchise. Although your chart indicates that Cincinatti has a higher per capita income than the Buffalo region it doesn't compare to the support of the western NY team.

 

The primary point that I am making in these numerous posts is that I believe that an NFL franchise is very viable in the region after the departure of the current owner. You apparently don't accept that position. If that is the case then we have to respectfully disagree.

[yungmack]

The Steelers used to be the Clippers of the NFL, a consistent loser decade after decade. Things didn't change until the "ownership" changed, That is, until Art Rooney turned things over to his son. It was under Dan that the modern Steelers were born, the model franchise we're talking about here. Let's hope the next owner of the Bills does the same thing, while keeping the team in WNY.

[JohnC]

The Steelers used to be the Clippers of the NFL, a consistent loser decade after decade. Things didn't change until the "ownership" changed, That is, until Art Rooney turned things over to his son. It was under Dan that the modern Steelers were born, the model franchise we're talking about here. Let's hope the next owner of the Bills does the same thing, while keeping the team in WNY.

 

Excellent post.

 

Some people believe that a post Ralph Wilson team in western NY is not viable. I strenuously don't accept that premise.