BuffOrange Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 LT is a unique position. If you have a bad one it can kill you and be your most pressing need. But I think there is a lot of value in just having an average/competent player there, which I think we have. There's almost a diminishing returns of sorts based on what you pay for an elite guy. Kinda the opposite of say WR where the value between great and average has a big impact and the difference between average and subpar is minimal (which was one reason the idea of Robert Meachum just didn't excite me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 How many remember the rep count on Bell's 225? 20 is more than twice, I'm not a Martin supporter, but the bench press means little to me. The answer was 9 Wow. Just wow. That's an Eye opener! The debate about which tackles willbe there at 10 is going on around the net. I like Mike Adams over Martin, because Martin struggles more with pass blocking. The knock on Mike Adams was his low 19 bench reps. At his Pro Day, and Nix was there, Adams did 21, and Adams was satisfied, saying he usually does 21-23. The difference is that Adams has long arms and it takes more strength to move 225 lbs over a longer distance. Adams looked great in the Nebraska game, less good in the Purdue. Watch #75 in the YouTube video on Mike Brewster and you'll see why Nix went to Adams Pro Day. LT is a unique position. If you have a bad one it can kill you and be your most pressing need. But I think there is a lot of value in just having an average/competent player there, which I think we have. There's almost a diminishing returns of sorts based on what you pay for an elite guy. Kinda the opposite of say WR where the value between great and average has a big impact and the difference between average and subpar is minimal (which was one reason the idea of Robert Meachum just didn't excite me). That's why we will take Floyd over the #3 or 4 Tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattsox Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Our oline was the best it was in years last year. I'm not saying it was fantastic but it was solid. Whether it was Hairston, Bell or Levitre at left tackle they all played well as did the whole oline. We also have a track record with being able to develop late round LT picks as well as undrafted players at LT into being good to great players. Jason Peters was an undrafted tight end that we molded into one of the best tackles in the league and Demetrius Bell who was a 7th round pick, while not great was built up into a solid starter. I believe our coaching staff can do the same with Hairston as well. I believe that we should give Hairston at least one shot to be our starting left tackle this year if it doesn't work out then we can just either draft someone to fill the void next year or draft someone in the 2nd, 3rd or middle rounds that can come in and compete with him for the starting spot. The only sure fire guy at tackle in the draft this year is Kalil who won't be there when we draft at 10 and there are questions about both Reiff and Martin especially Martin who had a lousy pro day and could only lift 225 pounds on the bench press 20 times as well as questions about his stance and footwork. Therefore, with that being said i believe the bills have to place their focus on two other players. I believe WR is our biggest need by far. You cannot look at the other wide receivers on this roster and say that you would be comfortable with any one of them starting opposite Stevie. Thats why i think our main player we should be targeting if he is there is Michael Floyd. This guy is just to good to pass up even if Martin or Reiff are there. There are to many questions about the other receivers after the top 2 even though it is deep. Floyd is the one WR that can come in and contribute and be a difference maker day one at the receiver position. If Floyd is not there then i believe we should go with Dre Kirkpatrick at CB from Alabama. This guy is huge at 6'3, has very good speed, is great in coverage and is not afraid to hit and will again have more of an impact than any of the left tackles we could take there. If neither one of these players are there i believe they can trade down and grab a LT at that point. I agree we need another threat at WR, but you need a solid LT. Get'R Done Buddy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 And just as one can find a wonderful (insert position here) in the late rounds, the odds of drafting a top notch LT are much improved drafting early. RD1#4 Mike Williams says hello.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 (edited) I like Mike Adams over Martin, because Martin struggles more with pass blocking. Martin's strength is his pass blocking. Edited March 26, 2012 by Lurker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mabden Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I'm not saying that it's not a need I'm just saying it's not the biggest need Disagree. LT is the team's biggest need. Followed by LB, WR, CB, TE in that order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Your right i don't because it's not. Take a look at the other receivers outside of stevie on this roster and tell me that your comfortable putting them as number 2 receiver Where you're losing people is saying LT is absolutely not our biggest need. You'd be better served to say it's your opinion that WR is a bigger need. Matter of fact stuff is why discussions like this don't produce anything valuable. The fact is that both positions can be argued to be our biggest need. That's why I personally think they are our biggest need. See how I did that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 There also needs to be a coralation between drafting a big speedster at #10, when you do not currently have a LT to allow protection for the time to use that speedster. I know Floyd can be used in crossing routes and shorter distances. But what the Bills need is a guy that can make fly route catches or deep posts. And for that you need more then 2-3 seconds. As has been pointed out here, Chans offense was handicapped by the oline. Yes he did a good job of masking it's dificencies, but with a strong LT Chans entire offense can be utilized. That is why i think the Bills go LT in the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoretalk Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 yeah, there's been a lot of trashing of our o-line last year, which really doesn't make too much sense to me. that was probably one of our best/most talented positions as a whole last year, and one of the best o-lines we have had in years. yes, you can try to explain the ranking by saying that fitz gets rid of the ball quickly, but that doesn't explain how we were at the top of the league in rush yards per attempt (even with most teams in the 2nd half of the season stacking the box because we couldn't throw). it's not likely that we ran well because of the o-line but were rarely sacked in spite of the o-line. the more likely answer is that overall, we have a good group. having said that, LT probably was the weakest position on the line. and we can use C and LT depth Well put! Finally, the Bills had a line on the field each week that other teams could be envious of. The line was not the problem with the Bills last year and we actually had some quality depth. However, if we lose Bell to free agency there is no doubt that we will need to pick up a LT hopefully in the draft. Even if Bell comes back to us with his tail between his legs, a LT pick up is a must and Nix has pretty much confirmed this. Hairston will eventually move over to RT where he will compete with Pears but either one of them are above average. It feels so good to not have a line that can't open holes or prevent sacks (Yea ... Fitz releases early but the line still does what it needs to do on pass protection.) and the number of penalties on the line were below the league average. Really do not know what the whiners want ... no team has 5 pro-bowl players but if Wood stays healthy we are close to having at least two at that level in Wood and Levitre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharebear Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 IMHO WR/LB/CB first.. more so LB/WR either Floyd or Kue at LB now sure which one yet. If we could somehow get kue and wright that would be amazing or floyd and jenkins then jeffery. One can only hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Good thread. I share some of the same opinions as the OP. My reasoning for wanting to take Floyd or Kuechly over any of the LTs is because I think they're better. I think they both have higher ceilings and can contribute more to the team now. IMO, the difference between Floyd and Jones or kuechly and Morrison is much more than the difference between rd1 LT and Hairston. I thought Hairston played pretty well for a rookie. We should take the bpa at Wr/lb/cb/lt. I don't think the bpa will be a Lt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Our oline was the best it was in years last year. I'm not saying it was fantastic but it was solid. Whether it was Hairston, Bell or Levitre at left tackle they all played well as did the whole oline. We also have a track record with being able to develop late round LT picks as well as undrafted players at LT into being good to great players. Jason Peters was an undrafted tight end that we molded into one of the best tackles in the league and Demetrius Bell who was a 7th round pick, while not great was built up into a solid starter. I believe our coaching staff can do the same with Hairston as well. I believe that we should give Hairston at least one shot to be our starting left tackle this year if it doesn't work out then we can just either draft someone to fill the void next year or draft someone in the 2nd, 3rd or middle rounds that can come in and compete with him for the starting spot. The only sure fire guy at tackle in the draft this year is Kalil who won't be there when we draft at 10 and there are questions about both Reiff and Martin especially Martin who had a lousy pro day and could only lift 225 pounds on the bench press 20 times as well as questions about his stance and footwork. Therefore, with that being said i believe the bills have to place their focus on two other players. I believe WR is our biggest need by far. You cannot look at the other wide receivers on this roster and say that you would be comfortable with any one of them starting opposite Stevie. Thats why i think our main player we should be targeting if he is there is Michael Floyd. This guy is just to good to pass up even if Martin or Reiff are there. There are to many questions about the other receivers after the top 2 even though it is deep. Floyd is the one WR that can come in and contribute and be a difference maker day one at the receiver position. If Floyd is not there then i believe we should go with Dre Kirkpatrick at CB from Alabama. This guy is huge at 6'3, has very good speed, is great in coverage and is not afraid to hit and will again have more of an impact than any of the left tackles we could take there. If neither one of these players are there i believe they can trade down and grab a LT at that point. This is all about the bills making that next step in offensive progression and Fitz being able to hold the ball long enough to throw deep routes when defenses start creeping up their defenses to stop our run...... I still have hopes for Hairston to be good but I thought he faded a bit down the stretch against the speed rushers (just for the record....our new DE Anderson DEMOLISHED Hairston with his speed rush.....I love the power of Hairston....but if he wants to be considered seriously for a LT he needs to lose about 20 pounds and gain more lateral quickness.....started off gangbusters....but faded late in the season. We have the RB's......so we need to start using more play action to a deep threat receiver and create some big plays....this requires another 2 potato count of protection. Offenses that are good dont methodically move down the field on every play....they get big chunks of yardage here and there on big plays. I think we now have the defense to hold other teams down.....now we need to be able to change up our offense depending on the situation.....we need better pass protection from our tackles AND we need depth behind our starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 This is all about the bills making that next step in offensive progression and Fitz being able to hold the ball long enough to throw deep routes when defenses start creeping up their defenses to stop our run...... I still have hopes for Hairston to be good but I thought he faded a bit down the stretch against the speed rushers (just for the record....our new DE Anderson DEMOLISHED Hairston with his speed rush.....I love the power of Hairston....but if he wants to be considered seriously for a LT he needs to lose about 20 pounds and gain more lateral quickness.....started off gangbusters....but faded late in the season. We have the RB's......so we need to start using more play action to a deep threat receiver and create some big plays....this requires another 2 potato count of protection. Offenses that are good dont methodically move down the field on every play....they get big chunks of yardage here and there on big plays. I think we now have the defense to hold other teams down.....now we need to be able to change up our offense depending on the situation.....we need better pass protection from our tackles AND we need depth behind our starters. I agree. Buddy isn't stupid. He knows we need to contiune to upgrade at every position. To be satisified with mediocrity is strictly for losers. We need playmakers and A$$kickers, even on the O-line, people. It seems like the way Buddy has gone out of his way to not address the tackle position, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them pick a Cordy Glenn or Mike Adams @ #10. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised at any selection other than Trent Richardson in Round 1. Good thread. I share some of the same opinions as the OP. My reasoning for wanting to take Floyd or Kuechly over any of the LTs is because I think they're better. I think they both have higher ceilings and can contribute more to the team now. IMO, the difference between Floyd and Jones or kuechly and Morrison is much more than the difference between rd1 LT and Hairston. I thought Hairston played pretty well for a rookie. We should take the bpa at Wr/lb/cb/lt. I don't think the bpa will be a Lt. I can't argue with that but I think Martin or Reiff would be a significant upgrade over Hairston, but you make a very good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 (edited) the line isnt as good as the numbers indicate how many times on 3rd and long were the tackles beaten but a quick pass rush how many times did the run game get stuffed in short yardage I think Bills fans forget what its like to have a legit LT which Bell is clearly not Martin is who I wanted from almost the begining...he is obviously a better pass protector then run blocker at this point but i still think he can step in and start from day one I was wavering a little last week but im back on the Martin bandwagon...I like Reiff but i think he is at best a RT but probably going to end up at guard Edited March 26, 2012 by Max997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 You realize you just compared our 7th-round pick (#219 overall), that never played organized football until his sophomore year at Northwestern State, to Stanford's Jonathan Martin - the #2 or #3 rated LT prospect (depending on who you read) in the 2012 NFL draft, yes? . I think the point is that a guy who repped less then half of what martin did turned out to be a pretty good LT for the Bills when Healthy, so reps on the Bench Press might not be a very good indicator on who turns out to be a good player or who can play the position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 With 10 picks I wonder if Nix is thinking about taking Floyd then moving up into the late first and getting Mike Adams? Floyd Adams LB's Awesome draft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Nix was on Sirius today and said that the Bills needed to come away from the draft with a "top tackle." But said that they've identified guys who can be had in the 2nd and 3rd rounds who can start from day 1, that other teams don't think are worth selecting that high. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Nix was on Sirius today and said that the Bills needed to come away from the draft with a "top tackle." But said that they've identified guys who can be had in the 2nd and 3rd rounds who can start from day 1, that other teams don't think are worth selecting that high. Interesting. Oh, no, I hope we aren't going back into that trying-to-outsmart-ourselves-by-picking-sleepers mode. Alternatively, it might be aimed at Bell - "our offer stands, but don't expect us to up it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Oh, no, I hope we aren't going back into that trying-to-outsmart-ourselves-by-picking-sleepers mode. Alternatively, it might be aimed at Bell - "our offer stands, but don't expect us to up it" Not every starting LT was picked in the 1st round. In fact, most weren't. As for Bell, it sounds like he's a goner. But time will tell on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Not every starting LT was picked in the 1st round. In fact, most weren't. As for Bell, it sounds like he's a goner. But time will tell on that one. It's almost certainly true of every position (maybe less-so of QB) that most starters weren't 1st round picks. If you accept that teams only have 1 1st round pick and that there are 22 starting positions, then it would take 22 years to fill every position with a 1st round pick. The average NFL career is about 3.5 years, so that isn't going to work... I think that teams need to look for truly great prospects at #1 over needs, but if there are no great prospects available, then need becomes the next factor to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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