buffalo_bills Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/11/team-by-team-cap-space-as-of-march-11/ So we have plenty to spend coming Tuesday. Don't be surprised if we're active, considering the cap room and what Buddy has said. Go Bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I have no idea who we could realistically get from the top tier. How good a salesman is Buddy and how do players see the Bills right now? Up and coming? PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo_bills Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 I have no idea who we could realistically get from the top tier. How good a salesman is Buddy and how do players see the Bills right now? Up and coming? PTR You can get a lot of things in this world with $......pay the men, they'll come. That simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Hmmmm… the Bills have the 7th most at $30.8 million and the league average is $11.7 million. That right there is a fairly large determining factor. I still don't see us getting Mario Williams or Vincent Jackson but this reaffirms my belief that the Bills will land a significant free agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benderbender Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 That gets us one Mario or two Vincent Jackson's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 That gets us one Mario or two Vincent Jackson's I hate to be THAT guy but... That doesn't include the money it will take to sign our draft picks. Your looking at about 15 mil. Or so in actual cash. Also, does that figure include Chandlers signing bonus + salary? (terms haven't been disclosed yet) The Bills (imo) at the very least are still are going to tender Urbik and Rienhart (or at least they should). Plus they are in talks with Scott. Now after all that- the number you have left over is used on free agents. Buuuuuut, they can still do things such as release players to make more room under the cap and free up some cash. So I do think they can make some moves (fingers crossed).. I just wanted to point out that anyone expecting too much may be disappointed. Personally I'm hoping for maybe one big signing (ex.jackson?) Or a couple of mid range signings like (ex. Meachum?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 That gets us one Mario or two Vincent Jackson's Darkhorse...Carl Nicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I hate to be THAT guy but... That doesn't include the money it will take to sign our draft picks. Your looking at about 15 mil. Or so in actual cash. Also, does that figure include Chandlers signing bonus + salary? (terms haven't been disclosed yet) The Bills (imo) at the very least are still are going to tender Urbik and Rienhart (or at least they should). Plus they are in talks with Scott. Now after all that- the number you have left over is used on free agents. Buuuuuut, they can still do things such as release players to make more room under the cap and free up some cash. So I do think they can make some moves (fingers crossed).. I just wanted to point out that anyone expecting too much may be disappointed. Personally I'm hoping for maybe one big signing (ex.jackson?) Or a couple of mid range signings like (ex. Meachum?) That cap room figures in all the moves so far, but doesn't take into account the tenders for Urbik and Rinehart (unless a deal or deals can be worked out), which are probably a 2nd round tender for Urbik ($1.927M) and an original (3rd, $1.26M) tender for Rinehart, which is about $3.2M. And the rookie cap will be about $6M. This is assuming non-cash-to-cap accounting. BTW, the Skins apparently are going all-in on Vincent Jackson, so forget about him. And Williams is probably also a pipe dream given the amount of cap room many teams have. I'm hoping they pursue Kamerion Wimbley, who Oakland will likely move (I'd even favor trading a pick to them to ensure getting him), and a speedy WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 That cap room figures in all the moves so far, but doesn't take into account the tenders for Urbik and Rinehart (unless a deal or deals can be worked out), which are probably a 2nd round tender for Urbik ($1.927M) and an original (3rd, $1.26M) tender for Rinehart, which is about $3.2M. And the rookie cap will be about $6M. This is assuming non-cash-to-cap accounting. BTW, the Skins apparently are going all-in on Vincent Jackson, so forget about him. And Williams is probably also a pipe dream given the amount of cap room many teams have. I'm hoping they pursue Kamerion Wimbley, who Oakland will likely move (I'd even favor trading a pick to them to ensure getting him), and a speedy WR. The 15 million I stated was cash to cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The 15 million I stated was cash to cap. No, I know. It's just that if they use cash to cap, that would leave about $12M, which is basically one top-tier FA, which isn't really being "aggressive" at all. And they only started using cash to cap after that lousy 2006 CBA, while the new one is far better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valle7878 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 You guys are forgetting that the rookies with the new collective bargaining agreement dont get the big monry anymore and the 6 million is way too high. We also can get rid of Kelsey and edwards for 11.5 million and restructure more deals to get more room we have roughly about 25 million to spend on free agents and that is probably 3-5 players because once the season starts they dont have to be under the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dailar Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 You guys are forgetting that the rookies with the new collective bargaining agreement dont get the big monry anymore and the 6 million is way too high. We also can get rid of Kelsey and edwards for 11.5 million and restructure more deals to get more room we have roughly about 25 million to spend on free agents and that is probably 3-5 players because once the season starts they dont have to be under the cap. Not just that but surely every team has to find $15m to sign rookies also. With the league average being $11m then there appears to be a discrepancy here? Or have I got that all wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Not just that but surely every team has to find $15m to sign rookies also. With the league average being $11m then there appears to be a discrepancy here? Or have I got that all wrong? You have that all wrong. Teams need about $5-6M in cap room to sign their picks. That's using amortization of signing bonuses and low first year base salaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sllib olaffub Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 We have the cash to go after anyone - even Mario Williams. It is up to Buddy Nix to figure out where to spend the money to, in the end, strengthen our team the most. It's very similar to the argument about trading up for a QB like Griffin, or using that pick to aquire a bunch of lesser picks - which is a better strategy? Right now we're capable of going all in on one or two F.A.'s, or we can bring in a handful or more of less coveted players - and, there's always one or two lower level guys who just need the right opportunity to turn into the next big player. We'll have to see - that is part of the fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 You guys are forgetting that the rookies with the new collective bargaining agreement dont get the big monry anymore and the 6 million is way too high. We also can get rid of Kelsey and edwards for 11.5 million and restructure more deals to get more room we have roughly about 25 million to spend on free agents and that is probably 3-5 players because once the season starts they dont have to be under the cap. It wont be that much. Closer to $7million. Last year the Bills draft picks took up just under $10 mil in cap room and about twice that much in actual cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) You have that all wrong. Teams need about $5-6M in cap room to sign their picks. That's using amortization of signing bonuses and low first year base salaries. The Bills do not use amortization! Last year when we signed Dareus, his $13M signing bonus counted 100% towards our cash to cap. Last year the #10 pick got a 7.2M signing bonus. So under the cash to cap system, $12-$15M is more realistic. Takes a big bite out of that $30M+ figure, huh? Any free agents that get a signing bonus will count 100% too. Edited March 12, 2012 by QCity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The Bills do not use amortization! Last year when we signed Dareus, his $13M signing bonus counted 100% towards the 2011 cap. Last year the #10 pick got a 7.2M signing bonus. So under the cash to cap system, $12-$15M is more realistic. Takes a big bite out of that $30M+ figure, huh? Any free agents that get a signing bonus will count 100% too. incorrect - in 2012 dareus has a $4.6M cap value. of that amount, $3.3M is prorated bonus, paid in 2011. http://nyjetscap.com/Bills/bills2012.php the bills use the cash to the cap as an excuse to pay out less money to free agents on a year to year basis, but they still prorate the bonuses over the life of the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 incorrect - in 2012 dareus has a $4.6M cap value. of that amount, $3.3M is prorated bonus, paid in 2011. http://nyjetscap.com/Bills/bills2012.php the bills use the cash to the cap as an excuse to pay out less money to free agents on a year to year basis, but they still prorate the bonuses over the life of the deal. I misspoke - it's fixed. I meant to say it counts 100% towards our cash to cap model(how much we can spend). Obviously the NFL amortizes it over the lifespan of the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The Bills do not use amortization! Last year when we signed Dareus, his $13M signing bonus counted 100% towards the 2011 cap. Last year the #10 pick got a 7.2M signing bonus. So under the cash to cap system, $12-$15M is more realistic. Takes a big bite out of that $30M+ figure, huh? Any free agents that get a signing bonus will count 100% too. I've been saying that they only went to "cash to cap" after the POS 2006 CBA. Now that there is a more favorable CBA and a salary floor, I doubt we'll be seeing it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 incorrect - in 2012 dareus has a $4.6M cap value. of that amount, $3.3M is prorated bonus, paid in 2011. http://nyjetscap.com/Bills/bills2012.php the bills use the cash to the cap as an excuse to pay out less money to free agents on a year to year basis, but they still prorate the bonuses over the life of the deal. That just isn't the case. The Bills use cash to cap accounting so as not to extend an expense into future cap years. It creates more cap room in successive years. Many teams have been using this type of accounting system since the 2006 CBA. All teams will use it starting next season when everyone needs to be at 89% of cap in actual cash spent. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I misspoke - it's fixed. I meant to say it counts 100% towards our cash to cap model(how much we can spend). Obviously the NFL amortizes it over the lifespan of the deal. and the bills "cash to the cap" includes the 2011 rollover to get to the adjusted cap target.......and it includes the fact they haven't spent up to their own "cash to the cap" limit in previous years nfl salary cap of $121M + skins/cowboys penalty of $2M + 2011 carryover of $19M + unknown cash underspend from prior years of $?? = +++$142M less $95M current projected cash spend = over $50M in cash to spend.........that is tons to sign draft picks, extend, sign free agents, and there are certainly players on the roster that could be cut to create even more cap/cash room (for example, doubt dwan edwards will see his $4.5M salary) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The Buffalo News has them at $20.9 million under the salary cap and $32.8 million under their cap in terms of actual cash spending. This includes the rollover and Johnson signing, but not Chandler and the Dallas/Wash thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) The Buffalo News has them at $20.9 million under the salary cap and $32.8 million under their cap in terms of actual cash spending. This includes the rollover and Johnson signing, but not Chandler and the Dallas/Wash thing. keep reading......... With past cash surpluses in mind, the Bills easily could spend over the cap again this year in real cash and still be within budget. When you try to factor in rolling four-year windows of cash spending and the fact teams also track the amount of guaranteed money in their budgets, it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to say what the Bills actually consider to be their firm cash-spending limit for this year. Edited March 12, 2012 by d_wag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 and? My point was that they have to allot at least $15M for draft picks in their cash to cap system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 and? My point was that they have to allot at least $15M for draft picks in their cash to cap system. and my point was 1) they amortize bonuses and 2) they've got loads to spend, regardless of how much they need to spend on rooks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 and my point was 1) they amortize bonuses and 2) they've got loads to spend, regardless of how much they need to spend on rooks NOOOOOO! A cash to cap system DOES NOT amortize bonuses. Let's say Mario Williams wants 16M a year with a 20M signing bonus. The Bills will count all 36M of that amount against their cash to cap figure this year (of which they have at least $32M, probably a lot more as was stated). Now, the deal will be amortized under NFL rules and can easily be structed to fit under the cap, but that figure is meaningless because we aren't pressed up against the cap. Cash to cap ignores the amoritzation of NFL accounting, and that's the important number because that's what we have to spend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offyourocker Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Hmmmm… the Bills have the 7th most at $30.8 million and the league average is $11.7 million. That right there is a fairly large determining factor. I still don't see us getting Mario Williams or Vincent Jackson but this reaffirms my belief that the Bills will land a significant free agent. I really believe they are going to go after Mario. And I sure hope I am right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) NOOOOOO! A cash to cap system DOES NOT amortize bonuses. Let's say Mario Williams wants 16M a year with a 20M signing bonus. The Bills will count all 36M of that amount against their cash to cap figure this year (of which they have at least $32M, probably a lot more as was stated). Now, the deal will be amortized under NFL rules and can easily be structed to fit under the cap, but that figure is meaningless because we aren't pressed up against the cap. Cash to cap ignores the amoritzation of NFL accounting, and that's the important number because that's what we have to spend. there is no "NFL rule" that says bonuses need to be amortized over the life of the deal. the bills choose to amortize bonuses over the life of the deal - they could take them against the current year cap when spent if they choose to (as they do in their cash to the cap system) but choose not to. hence, it is factually incorrect to say the bills don't amortize bonuses because they do. of course they also operate in a cash to the cap environment and count the entire current year payout (signing bonus, workout bonus, salary, etc) as a piece towards their cap to the cash number, but they choose to amortize the bonus over the life of the deal (and create dead cap money if cut early). as well, your example is unrealistic. if mario williams signs for 16M a year he will not receive 16M in salary the first year - it will be significantly less. just because the average value is X doesn't mean he'll be paid X each year. the deal will take in to account the upfront signing bonus and put some hefty numbers on the back end in salary (that can be avoided if he doesn't perform). doesn't take much to see a recent example of this - stevie's contract is backloaded as his salary the first two years is much lower then the last two. Edited March 13, 2012 by d_wag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 there is no "NFL rule" that says bonuses need to be amortized over the life of the deal. the bills choose to amortize bonuses over the life of the deal - they could take them against the current year cap when spent if they choose to (as they do in their cash to the cap system) but choose not to. hence, it is factually incorrect to say the bills don't amortize bonuses because they do. of course they also operate in a cash to the cap environment and count the entire current year payout (signing bonus, workout bonus, salary, etc) as a piece towards their cap to the cash number, but they choose to amortize the bonus over the life of the deal (and create dead cap money if cut early). Yes, and the cash to cap number is the one we use!!! This is the number that determines if we can sign free agent X. This is how much we have to spend. And when we determine if can sign free agent X, we consider 100% of all bonuses applied toward this year, NOT amortized bonuses! See? as well, your example is unrealistic. if mario williams signs for 16M a year he will not receive 16M in salary the first year - it will be significantly less. just because the average value is X doesn't mean he'll be paid X each year. the deal will take in to account the upfront signing bonus and put some hefty numbers on the back end in salary (that can be avoided if he doesn't perform). doesn't take much to see a recent example of this - stevie's contract is backloaded as his salary the first two years is much lower then the last two. It's just a simple example to illustrate the point of how bonuses are handled.. If you want a better one, look at Peppers' contract. He got like 1M his first year and 19M in bonuses. That would require 20M in free cash to cap space this year if we offered Mario the same deal. Whew, discussing the cap is tiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Yes, and the cash to cap number is the one we use!!! This is the number that determines if we can sign free agent X. This is how much we have to spend. And when we determine if can sign free agent X, we consider 100% of all bonuses applied toward this year, NOT amortized bonuses! See? It's just a simple example to illustrate the point of how bonuses are handled.. If you want a better one, look at Peppers' contract. He got like 1M his first year and 19M in bonuses. That would require 20M in free cash to cap space this year if we offered Mario the same deal. Whew, discussing the cap is tiring. Im tired just from reading the discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billnutinphoenix Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Darkhorse...Carl Nicks This is who I think we'll be a player for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 This is who I think we'll be a player for... I think the chances of us pursuing Carl Nicks are a bit lower than the chances of us drafting David DeCastro. I don't think we'll draft David DeCastro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Nicks, Jackson, Williams... any guy who is a difference maker I'm all for. Don't care what position he plays. If we have to overpay free agents to come here, might as well swing for the fences and overpay All Pro's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 You can get a lot of things in this world with $......pay the men, they'll come. That simple. Ya pay them but just remember we have a few other contracts coming due next year , so we better not get to carried away or we will wind up losing some of our own good players b/c of bad money management , then we'll be like the Cowboys , redskins , & Steelers & have to dump a bunch of good players just to get under the cap !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Cash to Cap is our way(excuse) so as not to have the money to sign bigtime players. Teams liek the Jets re-do contracts all the time to create space now for future year's expenses. We limit ourselves as much as we can to keep longterm comittments down in terms of salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocLawless Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Garçon and wimbley please!!!! Garçon will probably command about 7-7.5 mil per year and wimbley probably around 11-12 mil per year. Save the rest for our own player signings next year while at the same time filling two very big needs. That's just what I want to see happen anyways! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsfaninFl Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 the bills use the cash to the cap as an excuse to pay out less money to free agents on a year to year basis, but they still prorate the bonuses over the life of the deal. You are right. Cash to the Cap is a convenient way to make it look like you are spending more than some other teams. However, even using this accounting method, the Bills have not actually spent up to the salary cap. So next year it will be cash to about 89% of the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The Buffalo News has them at $20.9 million under the salary cap and $32.8 million under their cap in terms of actual cash spending. This includes the rollover and Johnson signing, but not Chandler and the Dallas/Wash thing. Thanks for posting that I wondered if the roll over was included. They have enough to do a few things. I really believe they are going to go after Mario. And I sure hope I am right And this is one I would like quite a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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