ndirish1978 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 There are a bunch of names floating around for us at 10 and I keep wincing when they mention us going DL. I realized the reason we're all so gun-shy about drafting a DL early this year is our historical futility picking DL early. There are too many question marks for me to feel confident taking a DE. Upshaw- he looked terrible at the combine. Coples- has issues with effort and was a bit of a one year wonder. We're so used to missing on DL picks that everyone is scared to pick a guy early. We've generally done such a poor job in the draft and that's why we're the team wit the longest playoff drought in the NFL. DL drafted in the 1st 09- Maybin- Bust who picked up some stats with the Jets. 06- McCargo- Terrible 00- Erik Flowers- Benched after 5 games in yr 2 and then cut. how about 2-3? 01- Schobel (2) The best of the bunch. Great player. Our ONE hit 01- Ron Edwards (3) Average, we didn't hold on to him 02- Ryan Denney (2) Average player. Had a couple of decent seasons. 03- Chris Kelsay (2) Stats are comparable to Denney's, but somehow scored a big contract and has stayed with the team. 04- Tim Anderson (3) 52 tackles in 5 years. Lasted 1 year in the NFL post-Bills. 08- Chris Ellis (3) Brought in to rush the passer, 1 sack in 3 seasons. 10- Troup (2) ?? 10- Carrington (3) ?? I have reserved judgement on Troup and Carrington. When you draft someone in the top 3, you're looking for a difference-maker. We have hit on exactly 1 good pick out of 11 and secured 2 decent role players. That leaves us with 8 complete misses in the first 3 rounds. You build along the lines. We were able to turn our OL drafting around when we picked up Levitre and Wood in 09. I really hope we turn this around soon. I hope this year's draft is a lot closer to our '11 draft than '10 and we pick up at least 2 good DLmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I'm less concerned with how the previous regime did picking DE's. I'm putting a lot of faith in Wannstache to fix the defense and find good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 Oh I know. I'm not complaining. I just identified in myself the reason why I have subconsciously been skeptical about our chances of drafting an impact DLman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I do not think the Bills are afraid, I think they project that the guys worth it @ 10 will not be there. Many experts are projecting that Ingram will be drafted by Jacksonville. Most mock drafts have Copels gone by #10. If the Bills, for whatever reason, do not want Upshaw @10, then they will look at another position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brainiac72 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 i'm more afraid to pick a DE in later rounds. what one, on any team, has made an impact in their first year... ever? pretty much all rookies struggle to get sacks in the NFL, but even moreso with non-1sts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 We have had a rich history of bad DL picks indeed. I think the worst would be a battle between Maybin and Walt Patulski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I watched a ton of South Carolina this year. Ingram was unreal. He is off the charts athletic and can play 4 positions. This year they were kicking him down to DT and the next play standing him up outside to blitz. He made special teams plays that were mind blowing too. Oh, he did it all in the SEC. I know his arms are short but so were Kyle Williams and Dwight Freeny's and they turned out alright. If the Bills go Ingram we will all be happy once he puts on the pads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 IMO, when it doesn't look like there's a "sure thing" pick at the #10 spot (which there doesn't), you stop fooling around and just go ahead and use that pick (along with a few others) and go and get your "sure thing" franchise QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I watched a ton of South Carolina this year. Ingram was unreal. He is off the charts athletic and can play 4 positions. This year they were kicking him down to DT and the next play standing him up outside to blitz. He made special teams plays that were mind blowing too. Oh, he did it all in the SEC. I know his arms are short but so were Kyle Williams and Dwight Freeny's and they turned out alright. If the Bills go Ingram we will all be happy once he puts on the pads. Ingram is the only DE I'd want in the first. Nix has a history of going with on how the draft falls to him, rather then trade around like some teams. Ingram should be there at the 10 spot, if not I suspect Nix will draft an OT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 How would you guys feel if the latest batch of mocks hold true and we draft Coples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Ingram is the only DE I'd want in the first. Nix has a history of going with on how the draft falls to him, rather then trade around like some teams. Ingram should be there at the 10 spot, if not I suspect Nix will draft an OT I'm not crazy about the other ones but who was banging the drum on here for Aldon Smith last year? The draft is a crap-shoot but Ingram is a rare athlete who has great football instincts and has a history of production. Hell, he even returned kickoffs early in his career at USCjr! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I watched a ton of South Carolina this year. Ingram was unreal. He is off the charts athletic and can play 4 positions. This year they were kicking him down to DT and the next play standing him up outside to blitz. He made special teams plays that were mind blowing too. Oh, he did it all in the SEC. I know his arms are short but so were Kyle Williams and Dwight Freeny's and they turned out alright. If the Bills go Ingram we will all be happy once he puts on the pads. Freeney's arms are 33", which is pretty much middle of the road, and fairly long for his short (6'1") stature. Ingram's arms are 31.5", which is pretty significantly shorter. Not saying he can't succeed (I'm sure there's examples of successful DEs with short arms), just saying that the pre-draft knocks on Freeney weren't about arm length, more about height and weight (at 268 lbs - shows how much the league has changed since then). I certainly like what you're saying about Ingram's athleticism. If he's really that beastly, he'll probably figure out a way to succeed in the NFL. I guess the main worry would be his ability to be an every-down DE and succeed against the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 How would you guys feel if the latest batch of mocks hold true and we draft Coples? It always scares me when a player has to be motivated. The Bills don't have the leadership like the Ravens/Pats and Steelers do to humble a guy like that. It's hard to slack when you have to answer to Ray Lewis. Pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I'm less concerned with how the previous regime did picking DE's. I'm putting a lot of faith in Wannstache to fix the defense and find good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showmeSP Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I definitely understand the concern with Ingram's arms, but I too am completely sold on him. Not only does he have a history of good production, but by all accounts he's a very hard worker and isn't afraid of putting the team on his back. Watch a couple interviews with him, he just looks and sounds like a true football player. Players can overcome physical deficits, but you can't teach that kind of attitude and work ethic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Agree about Wanny. He has a vision of what the DE43 is, and what the OLB's do. The DE is Ingram, and the OLB is a speedy sideline to sideline player like Curry, Ronnell Lewis, Davis, Irvin, or Lavonte David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Freeney's arms are 33", which is pretty much middle of the road, and fairly long for his short (6'1") stature. Ingram's arms are 31.5", which is pretty significantly shorter. Not saying he can't succeed (I'm sure there's examples of successful DEs with short arms), just saying that the pre-draft knocks on Freeney weren't about arm length, more about height and weight (at 268 lbs - shows how much the league has changed since then). I certainly like what you're saying about Ingram's athleticism. If he's really that beastly, he'll probably figure out a way to succeed in the NFL. I guess the main worry would be his ability to be an every-down DE and succeed against the run. How does the poor guy manage to pleasure himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan42790 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 i'm more afraid to pick a DE in later rounds. what one, on any team, has made an impact in their first year... ever? pretty much all rookies struggle to get sacks in the NFL, but even moreso with non-1sts. The thing is, this year all the projected round 2's and 3's the only big reason why they aren't higher on everyone's big boards is mostly because of the school they play for. Thats it really. When I look at someone like Vinny Curry I see him as having the same skill and statistical sets as Melvin Ingram. Curry is projected in the 2nd, and Ingram is possibly a top 10 pick. Why? School. Now I know that the smaller schools don't really gander up tough competition, but the fundamentals are still there. It's simply down too can the guy play or not. And Curry is as good as Ingram, the only difference is we can save our #10 pick for another need with Curry (hopefully) waiting in the wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I have reserved judgement on Troup and Carrington. When you draft someone in the top 3, you're looking for a difference-maker. We have hit on exactly 1 good pick out of 11 and secured 2 decent role players. That leaves us with 8 complete misses in the first 3 rounds. You build along the lines. We were able to turn our OL drafting around when we picked up Levitre and Wood in 09. I really hope we turn this around soon. I hope this year's draft is a lot closer to our '11 draft than '10 and we pick up at least 2 good DLmen. I disagree with the expectation that you should be able to find "difference makers" with all or most 2nd and 3rd round picks. You *hope* that you find good players in those rounds, of course. However, the reality is that if you get a solid contributor (doesn't have to be a star) in rounds 2 and 3, you are doing well. Heck, even in the first round, if you get a solid starter you have done well. I randomly grabbed the first round of the 2007 draft. Have a look at it and, yes, there are some great players, but there are a ton of outright busts including #1 overall Russel, #4 overall Adams, Jarvis Moss, Brady Quinn and Craig Davis. Many others never became solid starters. 1 Oakland Raiders JaMarcus Russell QB Louisiana State 2 Detroit Lions Calvin Johnson WR Georgia Tech 3 Cleveland Browns Joe Thomas OT Wisconsin 4 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Gaines Adams DE Clemson 5 Arizona Cardinals Levi Brown OT Penn State 6 Washington Redskins LaRon Landry SS Louisiana State 7 Minnesota Vikings Adrian Peterson RB Oklahoma 8 Atlanta Falcons Jamaal Anderson DE Arkansas 9 Miami Dolphins Ted Ginn Jr. WR Ohio State 10 Houston Texans Amobi Okoye DT Louisville 11 San Francisco 49ers Patrick Willis ILB Mississippi 12 Buffalo Bills Marshawn Lynch RB California 13 St. Louis Rams Adam Carriker NT Nebraska 14 New York Jets Darrelle Revis CB Pittsburgh 15 Pittsburgh Steelers Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State 16 Green Bay Packers Justin Harrell DT Tennessee 17 Denver Broncos Jarvis Moss DE Florida 18 Cincinnati Bengals Leon Hall CB Michigan 19 Tennessee Titans Michael Griffin FS Texas 20 New York Giants Aaron Ross CB Texas 21 Jacksonville Jaguars Reggie Nelson FS Florida 22 Cleveland Browns Brady Quinn QB Notre Dame 23 Kansas City Chiefs Dwayne Bowe WR Louisiana State 24 New England Patriots Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.) 25 Carolina Panthers Jon Beason MLB Miami (Fla.) 26 Dallas Cowboys Anthony Spencer OLB Purdue 27 New Orleans Saints Robert Meachem WR Tennessee 28 San Francisco 49ers Joe Staley OT Central Michigan 29 Baltimore Ravens Ben Grubbs G Auburn 30 San Diego Chargers Craig Davis WR Louisiana State 31 Chicago Bears Greg Olsen TE Miami (Fla.) 32 Indianapolis Colts Anthony Gonzalez WR Ohio State Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 I'll amend the statement: you expect difference makers in 1-2, starters in 3. You don't always hit, but you need more hits than misses and we had far more misses than hits. Or are you saying you enjoyed our drafts? Here are all our draft picks rd 1-3 since 2000 up until Chix. You tell me which year you really like. In 9 years we hit on more than one pick TWICE in 2001 and 2009. 2000 1- Erik Flowers 2-Tavares Tillman, 3-Corey Moore 2001 1- Nate Clements 2- Aaron Schobel 3- Travis Henry 2002 1- Mike Williams 2- Josh Reed 2- Ryan Denney 3- Coy Wire 2003 1- Willis McGahee 2- Chris Kelsay 3- Angelo Crowell 2004 1- Lee Evans 1- JP Losman 3- Tim Anderson 2005 2- Roscoe Parrish 3- Kevin Everett 2006 1- Whitner 2- McCargo 3- Youboty 2007 1- Lynch 2- Pos 3- Trent Edwards 2008 1- McKelvin 2- Hardy 3- Ellis 2009 1- Maybin 2- Wood 3- Byrd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'nCrunch Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Not afraid to draft a DE high - Marcell turned out pretty good in 2011, even though he'll end up as a DT in 2012. Just heed the warnings by the unbiased national gurus who are afraid to mock draft a DE in the entire 1st round. Resist the urge, mock drafters, just because the biggest apparent need is DE, keep focused on the big picture of getting the BPA at a position where he will be utilized, for example OT or CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverOutNick Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I watched a ton of South Carolina this year. Ingram was unreal. He is off the charts athletic and can play 4 positions. This year they were kicking him down to DT and the next play standing him up outside to blitz. He made special teams plays that were mind blowing too. Oh, he did it all in the SEC. I know his arms are short but so were Kyle Williams and Dwight Freeny's and they turned out alright. If the Bills go Ingram we will all be happy once he puts on the pads. I concur and would love Ingram and would be ok with Coples but please no Upshaw, he is not worth a top 10 and if we were going to take a Bama player I'd rather have Hightower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 To the OP pertaining to the discussion of our poor track record of selecting defensive linemen in the first round, in addition to the players you mentioned the Bills drafted Walt Patulski (Notre Dame DE) first overall in 1972 and the late Phil Dokes (OK State DE) 12th overall in 1977. It almost seems like Bruce Smith was our only really good D-lineman first rounder until Dareus last year. How does the poor guy manage to pleasure himself? No kidding… at 31.5 inches he probably can't even pick his navel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I'll amend the statement: you expect difference makers in 1-2, starters in 3. You don't always hit, but you need more hits than misses and we had far more misses than hits. Or are you saying you enjoyed our drafts? I'm not sure how you were able to conclude that I am happy with the Bills' drafts over the last decade, but no of course not. I was simply saying that it isn't realistic to expect any team to routinely find stars in each of the 1st,2nd and 3rd rounds. Even the mighty Pats miss on early picks sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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