Bob Sanders

[NoSaint]

I would like to genetically clone Byrd, Whitner and Wilson to create a super safety.

 

In all seriousness, Wilson and Whitner are a good 1-2 punch. Unfortunately, I do not see both of them resigning.

 

Also, Dungy saysSanders could go back to Colts.

 

 

buuuuutttttt polian knows what hes doing and sanders is CLEARLY washed up and worthless at this point.

 

or maybe not?

[qdawg in philly]

I would like to genetically clone Byrd, Whitner and Wilson to create a super safety.

 

In all seriousness, Wilson and Whitner are a good 1-2 punch. Unfortunately, I do not see both of them resigning.

 

Also, Dungy saysSanders could go back to Colts.

Lol!!! So you like whitner over wilson???

[boyst]

Lol!!! So you like whitner over wilson???

I like them both equally.

They both have their strengths, they both have their weaknesses. I think Whitner offers more on 1st and 2nd downs and overall is slightly better, while Wilson is more responsive to the pass and ideal in passing downs and 3rds.

[qdawg in philly]

I like them both equally.

They both have their strengths, they both have their weaknesses. I think Whitner offers more on 1st and 2nd downs and overall is slightly better, while Wilson is more responsive to the pass and ideal in passing downs and 3rds.

Gotcha!

[jr1]

Sanders is talented but an IR list waiting to happen

[zazie]

Sanders is talented but an IR list waiting to happen

A healthy Bob Sanders is much better than Whitner.

 

the problem with Whtner is that he is healthy all the time but never makes plays, and is frequently exposed in coverage.

 

If Whitner does walk, it is my guess that he (as well as Sanders) will end up with an incentive-laden contract for a low base salary.

 

Some will be based on playning time for Whitner. If I am Whitners agent I try to make it all based on playing time, as the incentives he may earn from INT's will not be too much.

[mabden]

IMO there is no way the bills even consider sanders.

 

 

When you go 4-12 and have missed the playoffs 11 years in a row, you consider EVEYTHING!

[JohnC]

They have to sign Peyton Manning to a long term deal and they need to pay him. Obviously they would have liked to have kept Sanders, but were hesitant to pay him the $$$ owed to him because they go lack of production from him because of the time he had missed.

 

You have with a great deal of clarity made my point.

[papazoid]

apologize if this has already been said....

 

 

Sanders will resign with INDY.

 

he is using Buf & Jax to reset his market value so he can justify in his own mind taking a substantial pay cut with INDY and accepting an incentive laden contract based heavily on playing time.

[Beerball]

Since I don't want to start another thread...

 

According to T. Graham...the Buffalo Bills probably will check OJ Atogwe out.

 

link

[Sisyphean Bills]

Nope, shirley not.

 

 

Whitner has 5. Sanders has 6. It was a statement of fact in the negative way. For the amount of games played being so close shouldn't he have more INT's?! I mean, we harp on Whitner for not getting the INT (1 every 13.2 games to Sanders 1 in every 8). Which goes to...wait, yeah, you are sort of right, but looking back on it, the Colts D in 2007 was amazing, and he had great DB's to protect the pass and play tight on the WR's. That gave him a lot of opportunities. Also, their running defense was average, at best, allowing him to rack up lots of tackles.

 

Thanks for the clarification. It sounded like you were saying Sanders was a ballhawk, which he has never been.

I assumed many knew that Whitner has filled that role, the hybrid Tampa2 safety. The Tampa2 scheme does not give the safety the chance to really ballhawk and get the INT, it focuses on using the SS as a run stopper. The difference between the Tampa2 in Buffalo and Indianapolis. Their defense worked.

They had better players and Tony Dungy coaching them.

 

Donte Whitner has more passes defended, more solo tackles, and more tackles in general because his front 7 has been awful for more of his career. There is no excuse for that, and the fact that you have a 230-240# RB running with a +10yard head start at a DB who is barely 210 lbs. and trying to cut him off should tell you that Whitner has a big responsibility and racked up 323 solo tackles doing so. He hasn't been hurt often and he is more reliable then Bob Sanders who has 221 solo tackles in 48 games in 6 seasons (5.02 per game) compared to 323 in to Whitners 69 games in 5 seasons (4.60 per game). In total Sanders 7.71 tackles has while Whitner has 6.55 taclkes per game. That tells me that while Whitner does not get the solo tackles, he as at the ball just about as much as Sanders - who's line must have been bleeding more because he has far more tackles. What I really want people to realize is that both of these players are very similar, Sanders has a better resume but after being beat up I cannot fathom the idea that he is a better solution then Whitner. Whitner has been on the field for most of his entire career.

There are some similarities. Both are small SS. While Whitner hasn't been injured as often, he has been injured and as he gets older, the accumulation of injuries and his natural size do not play to his advantage. They are both box safeties that play the run. Though there are differences. Sanders is a dynamic player against the run and has great instincts and played hard and fast downhill. Despite his lack of size I have seen him stone larger ball carriers in the hole with leverage and great technique. His read and diagnose is excellent and in his prime he made many plays in the offensive backfield. The Colts defense was very good against the run with him on the field and very poor when he was out. On the other hand, Whitner's strength is playing the run but he is not as instinctive and not a dynamic player. He makes tackles after the play has developed and made yardage. He doesn't play downhill, takes poor angles, etc.

 

Now as far as the passing game, neither Sanders nor Whitner are shutdown corners playing SS. Coverage isn't the strength of either player's game...

 

Anyway, there are some obvious similarities between two guys of similar builds that play the same position in the same system. But there are also differences as well, which is really why the plus-side of the resumes do not compare.

 

Whitner also plays SS, Byrd plays FS.

I figured most people knew that I was talking about the start of the season 2 years ago. Whitner absolutely was the starting FS and Scott was the starting SS. Whitner got injured and the LB group got decimated, so Scott ended up playing LB, Whitner and Wilson playing at SS, and Byrd at FS.

[Ramius]

Thanks for the clarification. It sounded like you were saying Sanders was a ballhawk, which he has never been.

 

They had better players and Tony Dungy coaching them.

 

 

There are some similarities. Both are small SS. While Whitner hasn't been injured as often, he has been injured and as he gets older, the accumulation of injuries and his natural size do not play to his advantage. They are both box safeties that play the run. Though there are differences. Sanders is a dynamic player against the run and has great instincts and played hard and fast downhill. Despite his lack of size I have seen him stone larger ball carriers in the hole with leverage and great technique. His read and diagnose is excellent and in his prime he made many plays in the offensive backfield. The Colts defense was very good against the run with him on the field and very poor when he was out. On the other hand, Whitner's strength is playing the run but he is not as instinctive and not a dynamic player. He makes tackles after the play has developed and made yardage. He doesn't play downhill, takes poor angles, etc.

 

Now as far as the passing game, neither Sanders nor Whitner are shutdown corners playing SS. Coverage isn't the strength of either player's game...

 

Anyway, there are some obvious similarities between two guys of similar builds that play the same position in the same system. But there are also differences as well, which is really why the plus-side of the resumes do not compare.

 

 

I figured most people knew that I was talking about the start of the season 2 years ago. Whitner absolutely was the starting FS and Scott was the starting SS. Whitner got injured and the LB group got decimated, so Scott ended up playing LB, Whitner and Wilson playing at SS, and Byrd at FS.

 

I think that what it all comes down to is that all 3 guys bring things to the table, and depends on what price they are asking. I'm ok with Sanders on a Merriman type incentive based contract. However, if i need to spend 5-6 mil per season on one of these guys, the order i'd go would be Whitner, Atogwe, Sanders. I see Whitner and Atogwe as similar players, but Whitner is 4 years younger. Sanders is too injury prone to spend significant cash on.

[boyst]

Anyway, there are some obvious similarities between two guys of similar builds that play the same position in the same system. But there are also differences as well, which is really why the plus-side of the resumes do not compare.

So, who would you prioritize? Sanders, Atogwe, Whitner, or Wilson. I think Wilson comes back for depth, and hope as well. Between the 3 I would go Whitner, Sanders, Atogwe. Sanders on a Merriman contract works for me. Wilson can start, Sanders can get his time in that situation. I see Atogwe wanting big money, just like Whitner with the only difference is that Whitner has familiarity with the team and we know what he brings to the table.

 

I think that what it all comes down to is that all 3 guys bring things to the table, and depends on what price they are asking. I'm ok with Sanders on a Merriman type incentive based contract. However, if i need to spend 5-6 mil per season on one of these guys, the order i'd go would be Whitner, Atogwe, Sanders. I see Whitner and Atogwe as similar players, but Whitner is 4 years younger. Sanders is too injury prone to spend significant cash on.

see above.

 

What would you do with Wilson? We need two safeties. I do not want to draft a SS and picking the bottom of the barrel for training camp fodder.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I think that what it all comes down to is that all 3 guys bring things to the table, and depends on what price they are asking. I'm ok with Sanders on a Merriman type incentive based contract. However, if i need to spend 5-6 mil per season on one of these guys, the order i'd go would be Whitner, Atogwe, Sanders. I see Whitner and Atogwe as similar players, but Whitner is 4 years younger. Sanders is too injury prone to spend significant cash on.

Depends on what they want. Isn't Atogwe a FS? Whitner is looking for a pay raise, so he could be thinking $6M or more. Also, the team is self-admittedly a few years away anyway. They can rent a journeyman to man the position for a season or two, while they are getting the right parts for and molding a 3-4 defense. Upgrading the front 7 would be my priority at this point. Having a bunch of Deion Sanders clones out there for the passing game is only of limited value if anybody can run on you to the tune of 170 yards a game and your D has absolutely zero pass rush ability.

[Bill from NYC]

I don't want to be argumentive but I agree with Dr. Dank. There is no doubt that Sanders is a more dynamic player who seems to always be on the ball. The concern I have with him is that he's an undersized player who plays with a reckless abandon. He is constantly in the middle of the action (including running plays) with a crash and burn style. The problem is that in his self-induced collisions he is the player being mangled.

 

If I had a choice between both of the players at a reasonable price I would take Whitner who has proven to be fairly durable. I consider Whitner to be in the solid (above average) category. Which is much lower than his inflated view of himself.

 

I disagree. One thing that Whitner has proven is that he will never be a difference maker. At least Sanders, when healthy, has proven that he is one.

When Whitner was out, it made little difference. You have many times lamented about the horror that Dick Levy inflicted upon this franchise and a great bunch of fans. It's time to cut out the cancer imo.

 

Bye-bye Lil' Donte! And good riddance!!!

[JohnC]

I disagree. One thing that Whitner has proven is that he will never be a difference maker. At least Sanders, when healthy, has proven that he is one.

When Whitner was out, it made little difference. You have many times lamented about the horror that Dick Levy inflicted upon this franchise and a great bunch of fans. It's time to cut out the cancer imo.

 

Bye-bye Lil' Donte! And good riddance!!!

 

Your characterization of Whitner being a cancer is very harsh coming from such a kind-hearted person like you. My assessment on Whitner has been consistent. He is a decent player, nothing more or less. My position on his retention is predicated on his being payed at the level of his play. As it stands he has an inflated view of himself as a player and on how he should be paid. Unless he lowers his contract expectations he will be dispatched.

 

I have not claimed that when healthy Whitner is better than Sanders. That isn't the issue. Sanders has for years been plagued with disabling injuries. Based on Sanders's history of injuries I would be very wary of adding him to the roster.

 

Please don't bring up the issue of the Levy/Jauron era. I get extremely agitated thinking about it. I blame the clown owner for that fiasco. That era was so stupid that it was embarrassing. Are you trying to provoke me into a spasm of anger? LOL

Edited February 26, 2011 by JohnC

[Bill from NYC]

Please don't bring up the issue of the Levy/Jauron era. I get extremely agitated thinking about it. I blame the clown owner for that fiasco. That era was so stupid that it was embarrassing. Are you trying to provoke me into a spasm of anger? LOL

 

No.

 

This is another one of those situations in which we almost see eye to eye. The Dick Levy philosophy was to play "not to lose." Overall, is Whitner "safer" than Sanders? Probably, but that doesn't make him what this team needs. The Bills need to take risks. Mr. Wilson trusted Dick Levy. This can be taken as evidence of his ineptitude, but as little as he knows about building a football team, he is sharper than those two disasters. You might agree whereas he, like you, called for a qb this season.

 

What I am saying is that I would prefer that the Bills draft Newton (big risk) or Mallett (possible drug addict) than another rb, wideout, or db. I would welcome Fairley too, and with all of those penalties he might be a psychotic.

Wrt to Lil' Donte, I view him as no risk/no reward. He is a small, non-play making blowhard who wants a ton of money. If Sanders plays in 8 games, he will make more key plays than Whitner has in his entire career.

 

Maybe we will get lucky and Spiller too will make a play, ya know?

[JohnC]

No.

 

This is another one of those situations in which we almost see eye to eye. The Dick Levy philosophy was to play "not to lose." Overall, is Whitner "safer" than Sanders? Probably, but that doesn't make him what this team needs. The Bills need to take risks. Mr. Wilson trusted Dick Levy. This can be taken as evidence of his ineptitude, but as little as he knows about building a football team, he is sharper than those two disasters. ]You might agree whereas he, like you, called for a qb this season.

 

You are a provocateur. Linking an opinion of mine with the cartoonish owner is a act of subversion. Your steady stream of jabs is taking a toll on me. Even a fading owner realizes that to be a contending team you have to have a certain level of excellence from the most important positon in the game. In baseball you can have potent hitting that dazzles the peanut galary all season long. But when the playoffs begin ultimately the caliber of a team's pitching staff will usually determine the winner. The San Fran Giants demonstrated that point. If you review the last two SBs you will get a demonstration of the importance of having an elite level of qb to be highly successful. (Peyton, Brees, Rodgere and Roethlisberger) The Bills have Fitz. There is no need to even respond to something that even a 92 yr old owner can see.

 

What I am saying is that I would prefer that the Bills draft Newton (big risk) or Mallett (possible drug addict) than another rb, wideout, or db. I would welcome Fairley too, and with all of those penalties he might be a psychotic.

Wrt to Lil' Donte, I view him as no risk/no reward. He is a small, non-play making blowhard who wants a ton of money. If Sanders plays in 8 games, he will make more key plays than Whitner has in his entire career.

 

With respect to qbs I'm starting to take a liking to Gabbert. He seems to be a much more finished product than the physical speciman from Alabama. But I would take either one.

 

My on to do list is to break your infatuation with Mallett. I will diligently chip away until you unclinch your tightly closed fist and let him go. There is no doubt that he is the best passer coming out of college, and that would have included Luck if he came out. The problem with him is his immobility. That is a killer for an qb playing for the Bills behind this porous line. It simply won't work. Another issue is that any qb playing for the Bills has to deal with adversity and unrealistic fans. I'm not sure he has the strength of character and mental toughness to handle what Losman and Edwards had to endure. No matter what anyone thinks of Losman and Edwards they were subjected to playing on a garbage team and organization. How can any qb be expected to develop under those chaotic circumstances? Everything I have read about Mallett doesn't suggest that he has the type of personality to handle such an avalache of adversity.

 

Maybe we will get lucky and Spiller too will make a play, ya know?

 

You and WEO are on my I Told You So notification when he develops into the scintillating player I think he will ultimately be. The notification will be very diplomatic yet also very pointed.

Edited February 26, 2011 by JohnC

[Bill from NYC]

You are a provocateur. Linking an opinion of mine with the cartoonish owner is a act of subversion. Your steady stream of jabs is taking a toll on me. Even a fading owner realizes that to be a contending team you have to have a certain level of excellence from the most important positon in the game. In baseball you can have potent hitting that dazzles the peanut galary all season long. But when the playoffs begin ultimately the caliber of a team's pitching staff will usually determine the winner. The San Fran Giants demonstrated that point. If you review the last two SBs you will get a demonstration of the importance of having an elite level of qb to be highly successful. (Peyton, Brees, Rodgere and Roethlisberger) The Bills have Fitz. There is no need to even respond to something that even a 92 yr old owner can see.

 

I am hoping that you are kidding with the above. If not, I apologise.

 

What I meant was that Ralph is a money guy. He is probably a financial genius even at his advanced age. But even with this and not football being his area of expertise, he is better equipped to build a team than Levy/Jauron imo. THAT is how little I view the abilities of those two.

I believe that Ralph was the driving force behind the Spiller selection. I can't prove it nor do I have a link. You too liked that pick so there is common ground. You and Mr. Wilson both push a first round qb although for different reasons I am sure. You want one to build a football team. Ralph would like that too but a qb at #3 will make him money if he can play. Tons of it.

 

If the chips fall right, the Bills can improve in many areas next season. But as I said in the other post, they need to be a little daring. Because of Mr. Wilson's statements about a qb, I feel better about this draft. Let's keep hoping they don't screw it up.

[JohnC]

I am hoping that you are kidding with the above. If not, I apologise.

 

Absolutely joking. Apologize for what? Sometimes in writing and reading a response the jocularly tone isn't easily exhibited.

 

What I meant was that Ralph is a money guy. He is probably a financial genius even at his advanced age. But even with this and not football being his area of expertise, he is better equipped to build a team than Levy/Jauron imo. THAT is how little I view the abilities of those two.

I believe that Ralph was the driving force behind the Spiller selection. I can't prove it nor do I have a link. You too liked that pick so there is common ground. You and Mr. Wilson both push a first round qb although for different reasons I am sure. You want one to build a football team. Ralph would like that too but a qb at #3 will make him money if he can play. Tons of it.

 

Your intuition regarding the owner being behind the Spiller selection is very reasonable. I have heard the owner state that the Bills were a boring team and needed to do something about it. When the owner makes a recommendation to a recently hired GM in his 70s who would have not been considered as a serious GM candidate by any other franchise you better believe that Good Old Buddy listens.

 

There is a logic to taking Spiller on the basis of his ranking and playmaking ability. Truthfully, he is not the player I would have selected. My philosophy on rebuilding an expansion team (what the Bills really are) is to concentrate on the lines, on both sides of the ball, and then pursue the perimeter positions. The player I would have taken last year was Bulaga. Although it would have been a bit high from a player ranking standpoint he would have been a good pick from a building block standpoint. My preference is to build the infrastructure (lines) and then go on from there.

 

If the chips fall right, the Bills can improve in many areas next season. But as I said in the other post, they need to be a little daring. Because of Mr. Wilson's statements about a qb, I feel better about this draft. Let's keep hoping they don't screw it up.

 

My reason for desiring a qb is different from the owner's. He is more attuned to the marketing aspect of a qb selection. My primary reason for pursuing a qb is that the Bills are drafting from a very high position. Now is the time to take the plunge and use that lofty drafting position to get a franchise qb on board. If our scouts believe that Newton or Gabbert or anyone else falls in that category they should just take the plunge, secure their future qb, and then go on with the rebuilding process.

 

Atlanta with Matt Ryan, Tampa with Freeman, St. Louis with Bradford, New York with Sanchez and even to a lesser extent Detroit with the much injured Stafford have shown that getting the young gun qb does have an elevating affect on a team. No team goes anywhere without a legitimate franchise qb. When you are in a position to get one then you should seize the opportunity. Fitz in my mind is a Kitna caliber player. He would be an excellent bridge qb and tutor for the more talented developing prospect.

 

I again apologize for the bad humor displayed in the prior post. Maybe I should be more serious? Nope!

Edited February 26, 2011 by JohnC