Pat Williams, 3 year $13 million deal

[Webster Guy]

I know this has been beaten to death but we let big Pat walk for a 3 year $13 million dollar deal (he said he wouldve taken even less)and we just signed Kelsay to a 4 year $24 million dollar deal. Talk about organizational inconsistency.

 

I don't care who your GM is at the time, if you have an astute owner he doesn't let that type of athlete and team leader leave to save a few peanuts. I understand letting Clements and even Winfield walk because of the FA money they wanted, but I feel embarassed for Ralph and how disconnected he has been to his team for so long now when you look at moves like big Pat's.

 

Hindsight is 20/20 and yes he was getting older and at that questionable age for performance and durability, but he didn't want a long term deal anyway or crazy upfront money.

 

I don't expect an NFL owner to be a talent judge or a financial expert, but you need them to be involved to the point that players feel some loyalty to them and vice versa. I hope our next owner brings this to the organization.

[PromoTheRobot]

How about that Darryl Lamonica trade?

 

PTR

[K-9]

In fairness to RW, he had nothing to do with letting Pat Williams go. It was the first time in team history that RW created the title and delegated TOTAL control to a team president, Tom Donahoe. When TD hired Greg Williams, GW decreed that Pat Williams was "fat" and didn't fit the mold of his great 46 defensive schemes. He was gonna beat the run with "speed and numbers." He didn't like oversized DLmen. Exit PW.

 

It's no coincidence that after the failure of the TD experiment RW hasn't given any one person total control of football operations since.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

In fairness to RW, he had nothing to do with letting Pat Williams go. It was the first time in team history that RW created the title and delegated TOTAL control to a team president, Tom Donahoe. When TD hired Greg Williams, GW decreed that Pat Williams was "fat" and didn't fit the mold of his great 46 defensive schemes. He was gonna beat the run with "speed and numbers." He didn't like oversized DLmen. Exit PW.

 

It's no coincidence that after the failure of the TD experiment RW hasn't given any one person total control of football operations since.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I remember Marv Levy was doing color commentary for one of the preseason games after Pat Williams was let go and he was astonished that such a thing could happen.

[DrDawkinstein]

It was the single biggest personnel mistake this team has made over the past 20 years. Second in team history to letting Polian go.

 

And the difference in offers was less than $1million. Oh well...

[EastRochBillsfan]

You can't have it both ways. A good majority of you call ralph a meddling owner and don't want him anywhere near football decisions. And now we have someone calling for Ralph to be a meddling owner. Just can't win with you guys.

[Red]

I totally agree.

 

The lack of even an offer for 'Big Pat' was ridiculous. And that was far from alot of money.

 

Same thing with Antoine Winfield and London Fletcher. The loss of these 3 sent out defense backwards several years. How long have we been trying to replace these guys? Especially Pat Williams. That one really hurt. Kyle Williams- who is awesome- is finally emerging as an NFL stud, but how long did it take for that to occur?

 

The thing that I notice about championship teams, is that they are obviously loaded with talented players. But what sets them apart is they also have competent future starters in the wings, waiting to take over once the starter retires, is injured, or goes somewhere else. The Patriots and Colts were excellent examples of this; though both franchises are now showing signs of being hit by too many losses these past few years that they can't possibly replace all of their players.

 

The Bills of this past decade allowed our own draft picks that turned into productive, Pro Bowl players walk away over chump change. Donahoe was such an @$$.

 

When Big Pat left, what did we replace him with? Is Poz as good as Fletcher? Now, arguably McGee and MCKelvin are good replacements at CB, but how many high 1st round picks have we spent on the secondary?

 

It's not a fair argument.

 

I mean, with smarter free agent decisions (keeping Fletcher, Williams, and Winfield), drafting better (Orakpo or Oher over Maybin, Ngata instead of Whitner, drafting Gronkowski), and some more aggressive free agent dealings (offering Cameron Wake more money than Miami to come to Buffalo) we would be an amazingly different team. What kind of pass rush would we have with Orakpo, Fletcher, Poz at LB, Cameron Wake, Ngata, Big Pat, Kyle Williams in relief duty, and Schobel? Winfield, McGee, McKelvin, Byrd in the secondary? You wouldn't be able to run or pass on a defense that good. And to top it all off, it would be a relatively young defense. We could concentrate our efforts on building the offensive line. Gronkowski may have answered those TE issues. Our receiving and RB corps is now solid. Fitz is performing well. Special teams would be solid.

 

We'd only need a couple of high caliber offensive tackles, and we'd be amazing.

 

Ah...why did Donahoe have to "spill the milk"? I'm still crying over it.

[Doc]

In fairness to RW, he had nothing to do with letting Pat Williams go. It was the first time in team history that RW created the title and delegated TOTAL control to a team president, Tom Donahoe. When TD hired Greg Williams, GW decreed that Pat Williams was "fat" and didn't fit the mold of his great 46 defensive schemes. He was gonna beat the run with "speed and numbers." He didn't like oversized DLmen. Exit PW.

 

It's no coincidence that after the failure of the TD experiment RW hasn't given any one person total control of football operations since.

 

GO BILLS!!!

That was actually Ted Washington. TD let Pat Williams walk because he thought PW was close to the end.

[racecitybills]

How about that Darryl Lamonica trade?

 

PTR

 

How about that Darryl Lamonica trade?

 

PTR

 

 

 

Might be the funniest response ever

[K-9]

That was actually Ted Washington. TD let Pat Williams walk because he thought PW was close to the end.

 

I get my fat DTs mixed up. Thanks for the clarification. But TD still resided over the decision not to re-sign PW as he still had total control of football operations at the time. Again, RW didn't meddle in any decisions during TD's reign. Given the idiocy of letting PW go, perhaps he should have.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Doc]

I get my fat DTs mixed up. Thanks for the clarification. But TD still resided over the decision not to re-sign PW as he still had total control of football operations at the time. Again, RW didn't meddle in any decisions during TD's reign. Given the idiocy of letting PW go, perhaps he should have.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Yep, it was TD's decision. But I still don't believe that Ralph got too involved in personnel decisions, other than to sign off on them.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Doc

[SuperKillerRobots]

I totally agree.

 

The lack of even an offer for 'Big Pat' was ridiculous. And that was far from alot of money.

 

Same thing with Antoine Winfield and London Fletcher. The loss of these 3 sent out defense backwards several years. How long have we been trying to replace these guys? Especially Pat Williams. That one really hurt. Kyle Williams- who is awesome- is finally emerging as an NFL stud, but how long did it take for that to occur?

 

The thing that I notice about championship teams, is that they are obviously loaded with talented players. But what sets them apart is they also have competent future starters in the wings, waiting to take over once the starter retires, is injured, or goes somewhere else. The Patriots and Colts were excellent examples of this; though both franchises are now showing signs of being hit by too many losses these past few years that they can't possibly replace all of their players.

 

The Bills of this past decade allowed our own draft picks that turned into productive, Pro Bowl players walk away over chump change. Donahoe was such an @$$.

 

When Big Pat left, what did we replace him with? Is Poz as good as Fletcher? Now, arguably McGee and MCKelvin are good replacements at CB, but how many high 1st round picks have we spent on the secondary?

 

It's not a fair argument.

 

I mean, with smarter free agent decisions (keeping Fletcher, Williams, and Winfield), drafting better (Orakpo or Oher over Maybin, Ngata instead of Whitner, drafting Gronkowski), and some more aggressive free agent dealings (offering Cameron Wake more money than Miami to come to Buffalo) we would be an amazingly different team. What kind of pass rush would we have with Orakpo, Fletcher, Poz at LB, Cameron Wake, Ngata, Big Pat, Kyle Williams in relief duty, and Schobel? Winfield, McGee, McKelvin, Byrd in the secondary? You wouldn't be able to run or pass on a defense that good. And to top it all off, it would be a relatively young defense. We could concentrate our efforts on building the offensive line. Gronkowski may have answered those TE issues. Our receiving and RB corps is now solid. Fitz is performing well. Special teams would be solid.

 

We'd only need a couple of high caliber offensive tackles, and we'd be amazing.

 

Ah...why did Donahoe have to "spill the milk"? I'm still crying over it.

 

I think one of the things that has set the Bills apart from more successful organizations over the past 10 years (not in a good way) is their habit of relying too much on young players who they feel have more talent and will be better than the current ones, but are not at the moment they are thrust intot he lineup. If you look at good teams, they draft replacement players, while still holding ontot he veteran players who are to be replaced. While we just replace the player and hope the younger player comes into his own. I understand there's a lot to be said for getting the player into the game to show what he can do, but I think doing that to a young player (any position) too early in his career actually damages their career path.

 

A perfect example of a team doing this with a player is the Steelers and Lawrence Timmons(sp?). The guy was a first round draft pick, but played second or thrid string for his first 2 to 3 seasons in the league. He basically played spot duty for them. Now he's starting and capable, whiel they never had a really big drop-off at that position during the switch-over.

 

Now look at the London Fletcher/Poz switch. They basically dumped the vet for the rookie in one offseason. Now Poz hasn't been terrible (he has been injured), but he certainly hasn't been a world-beater. There was definitely an initial drop-off between the two (and you could argue there still is depending on the situation).

 

I think the true value of having the vets still on the team with the younger, replacement players is that they develop a mentor-protege relationship, which allows the rookies to more easily assimilate intto the NFL. They have a more experienced player to assist them in learning the nuances of the scheme they are in (any football player who gets drafted can learna playbook, but it takes a while for them to really understand their role and be able to improvise within the scheme). I also think it goes past the actual on-field work and into the offseason program, weight lifting program, and practicing. The veteran players can show the younger guys how they should be working (i.e. practicing) and provide a benchmark for their progress. If it's all young guys, they might tend to have certain bad habits crop up that only experience tells you is a killer for the team. Not to mention the vets provide at least a baseline production on the field in the event that the rookies fall apart during the season.

 

Despite the fact that there probably isn't any one Bills fan who was really happy about the extension of Kelsey, this is the one good thing that can be taken out of it: The organization seems to be willing to spend money on players who are marked to be replaced, but serve a purpose as leaders, so they can help to endoctrinate the younger players with the culture of the club. Obviously if the culture is poor you might not want those vet players fostering that culture to be retained to train the younger kids, but, at least in Kelsey's case, I think the problem is more talent than attitude, which makes him somewhat of a good fit for this (hopefully) temporary role.

[yungmack]

That was actually Ted Washington. TD let Pat Williams walk because he thought PW was close to the end.

Tom Donohoe had a rule of thumb that you don't give big contracts to guys on the wrong side of 30, which apparently was the reason the Bills didn't offer Williams a new contract.

 

As to the complaint about not giving Williams a contract, but overpaying for Kelsay, this is FOUR front office regimes later. I see no correlation.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I dont know what the Bills were doing that year. Coming off a 9-7 year we got rid of Bledsoe and Pat Williams and our big signings were Bennie Anderson and Kelly Holcomb.

 

Strange off season because neither Williams now Bledsoe wanted out.

Edited December 3, 2010 by TheTruthHurts

[Stussy109]

I lived next dor to Izell Reese during P Williams last year on the team, and Reese told me flat out the Bills biggest offseason priority was resigning Pat Williams, and keeping the Defense intact. What do you know Williams walks, and we havent been the same since.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

My memory might be off on this one but I seem to remember Donahoe setting up some sort of "first come, first served" dynamic between Pat Williams and Aaron Schobel.

 

I remember him saying the team couldn't afford to keep both of them.

 

I also remember that when Donahoe initially arrived in 2001 that the Bills were in salary cap "Hell" due to John Butler's regime and that he was in slash and burn mode…but I don't think that had anything to do with the Pat Williams situation in 2004.

[eball]

How about that Darryl Lamonica trade?

 

PTR

Awesome.

[Doc]

Tom Donohoe had a rule of thumb that you don't give big contracts to guys on the wrong side of 30, which apparently was the reason the Bills didn't offer Williams a new contract.

 

As to the complaint about not giving Williams a contract, but overpaying for Kelsay, this is FOUR front office regimes later. I see no correlation.

It was also 5 years ago, not to mention prior to the last CBA. Player salaries have risen considerably since then.

[Webster Guy]

Tom Donohoe had a rule of thumb that you don't give big contracts to guys on the wrong side of 30, which apparently was the reason the Bills didn't offer Williams a new contract.

 

As to the complaint about not giving Williams a contract, but overpaying for Kelsay, this is FOUR front office regimes later. I see no correlation.

Thats why I started this post, because there SHOULD be a correlation. Its OK to change GM's, although we had one of the best here and let him go. But the owner is always the owner and he's the one that can lead with some consistency with regard to player loyalty (within reason of course) It seems that the Ralph of the early 1990's had player loyalty and established a mutual respect with the players. That's faded fast since he hit his 80's and now in his 90's lets face it we're a company without a CEO or board of directors and it shows.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Webster Guy

[The Senator]

How about that Darryl Lamonica trade?

 

PTR

I still can't get past the CookieGilchrist trade. Never got over it.