Got_Wood Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) Maybin is quick and athletic. He's not a big stout defensive end that can bull rush offensive tackles and get to the QB that way. He needs to be standing up on the edge out wide where he can speed rush and work in space. See examples below. Maybin in 4 point stance. Ends up hitting a wall when he runs into the offensive tackle. Gets pancaked... http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8589/maybinstance.jpg Example of Steelers OLB's in stand up 2 point stance... http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/4089/steelersdefense2.jpg Different angle of defensive alignment and the pressure it brings with OLBs out in open space... http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/261/steelersdefense.jpg If we don't use our personnel the way they're supposed to be used, then we're wasting potential talent on the bench. Edited October 12, 2010 by Got_Wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 I pretty much agree with you (Maybin should be up to rush) but the formation the Bills are in is not a 34 in that picture it is a 4-2-5 and it would be right that he starts from a four point in that formation (he is actually a DE in that case). The Steelers are in a true 34 and yeah the OLBs are up in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got_Wood Posted October 12, 2010 Author Share Posted October 12, 2010 I pretty much agree with you (Maybin should be up to rush) but the formation the Bills are in is not a 34 in that picture it is a 4-2-5 and it would be right that he starts from a four point in that formation (he is actually a DE in that case). The Steelers are in a true 34 and yeah the OLBs are up in it. You're definitely right. We're in a "hybrid" 4-3/3-4 that makes no sense at all. We have Kelsay running around in space trying to defend the pass and getting burned consistently, and we have Maybin bull rushing OT's and getting buried. No pressure on QB's, no solid run defense, and no ball hawking defensive backs (0 Int's for defensive backs this year). This defense ensures that we're terrible in every phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaPolian8693 Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 I hate it when Maybin pulls out his patented Four-On-The-Floor move. It's embarassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsObserver Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Excellent thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 It's a good point. Maybin lines up like a sprinter waiting for the starting gun. That CAN'T be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endless Ike Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) I pretty much agree with you (Maybin should be up to rush) but the formation the Bills are in is not a 34 in that picture it is a 4-2-5 and it would be right that he starts from a four point in that formation (he is actually a DE in that case). The Steelers are in a true 34 and yeah the OLBs are up in it. Nickel package with an extra d-lineman who's allegedly a pass rushing specialist...makes sense to me when facing the patriots with a 3 WR set... Edited October 12, 2010 by Endless Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playman Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 jason taylor starts from 4-point stance too in a 40 front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 I agree 100%. The four point stance completely eliminates his speed. This is why I think the defense problem is more on the coaching and not the players. Anybody can see Maybin's too light to be lining up like that against a monster OT. I have no idea why the "creep* defense isn't used instead of this nonsense of switching between 4-3. 4-2-5 and sometimes, just maybe, a real 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe Northern Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 If we don't use our personnel the way they're supposed to be used, then we're wasting potential talent on the bench. Good point, but do you think anyone is TELLING Maybin to get in a four-point stance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got_Wood Posted October 12, 2010 Author Share Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) jason taylor starts from 4-point stance too in a 40 front. Taylor uses all three techniques. Sometimes he stands up, sometimes he's in a 3-point, and sometimes a 4 point stance. He's also one of the best in the game. He's got a large array of pass rushing moves, he's probably got about 10-15 pounds on Maybin, and Ryan knows how to mix up the edge of the line with additional blitzers to get Taylor a lane to the QB. A little different scenario. Edited October 12, 2010 by Got_Wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beebe's Kid Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Good point, but do you think anyone is TELLING Maybin to get in a four-point stance? Maybinot, but they should be telling him to stand the !@#$ up and try to get an angle. I hate the wallbash smiley, but there is no better way to illustrate us continuing to put/let Maybin in the 4-pt stance. This is a great thread, does anybody have Chan's email address to bring this to his attention??!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 FWIW, if you watch tape of Maybin while he was at PSU, he's in the 4 point stance. However, he's lined up quite a ways off the OT in everything I watched, so that when the ball is snapped, he does not have to take on the OT face to face, where the OT can use his size and strength but at the angle, which benefits Maybin's speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got_Wood Posted October 12, 2010 Author Share Posted October 12, 2010 I do think Maybin needs to add 10-15 pounds to his frame to be a successful OLB in the NFL though. He's just too small right now to play that position consistently. But there is NO WAY we should give up on him yet, especially 5 games into his career. He had no playing time last year, and now it looks like it's shaping up the same way this year. I'm hoping things change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playman Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Taylor uses all three techniques. Sometimes he stands up, sometimes he's in a 3-point, and sometimes a 4 point stance. He's also one of the best in the game. He's got a large array of pass rushing moves, he's probably got about 10-15 pounds on Maybin, and Ryan knows how to mix up the edge of the line with additional blitzers to get Taylor a lane to the QB. A little different scenario. exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreezeMafia Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Maybin is quick and athletic. He's not a big stout defensive end that can bull rush offensive tackles and get to the QB that way. He needs to be standing up on the edge out wide where he can speed rush and work in space. See examples below. Maybin in 4 point stance. Ends up hitting a wall when he runs into the offensive tackle. Gets pancaked... http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8589/maybinstance.jpg Example of Steelers OLB's in stand up 2 point stance... http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/4089/steelersdefense2.jpg Different angle of defensive alignment and the pressure it brings with OLBs out in open space... http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/261/steelersdefense.jpg If we don't use our personnel the way they're supposed to be used, then we're wasting potential talent on the bench. I agree with you as well. Maybin will have to learn how to use his speed and become an expert in the "hand fight" if he is going to want to succeed in this league. "Hand Fighting" is something that Jason Taylor had to learn and is one of the all time very best football players at it. Wing Chun, Daito Ryu, Jui Jitsui all have great hand "offensive techniques" that could help Aaron tremendously. What doenst help Aaron is that the Bills switched to a 3-4 when he was drafted to be an end in the 4-3. but, that was the situation for Jason Taylor as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayD Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Taylor uses all three techniques. Sometimes he stands up, sometimes he's in a 3-point, and sometimes a 4 point stance. He's also one of the best in the game. He's got a large array of pass rushing moves, he's probably got about 10-15 pounds on Maybin, and Ryan knows how to mix up the edge of the line with additional blitzers to get Taylor a lane to the QB. A little different scenario. By the way Jason taylor is 6'6" 250lbs and Maybin is 6'4" 250lbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Maybin is quick and athletic. He's not a big stout defensive end that can bull rush offensive tackles and get to the QB that way. He needs to be standing up on the edge out wide where he can speed rush and work in space. See examples below. Maybin in 4 point stance. Ends up hitting a wall when he runs into the offensive tackle. Gets pancaked... http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8589/maybinstance.jpg Example of Steelers OLB's in stand up 2 point stance... http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/4089/steelersdefense2.jpg Different angle of defensive alignment and the pressure it brings with OLBs out in open space... http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/261/steelersdefense.jpg If we don't use our personnel the way they're supposed to be used, then we're wasting potential talent on the bench. This is pretty much the best post I've ever read (with photographic evidence and everything!) I totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clip Smith Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 I think this is the visual of how we use Maybin all wrong, you were looking for.... All Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChimp Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Maybin just needs some tackin' fuel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGPYYnA6UD8&feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Got any pictures of Maybin getting to the QB from any stance? This is like showing pictures of Brady or Manning and saying "why didn't they have Trent line up like this?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offyourocker Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 I am so sad every time I remember we let LeBeau go. I would have given him a fortune to be our DC forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouds Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Our blitzes have been non-existent, no creativity, very little zone blitzing. Seems like Edwards is content with rushing 4 and dropping 7. The worst is when he drops 8, pressure zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGB Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Got any pictures of Maybin getting to the QB from any stance? This is like showing pictures of Brady or Manning and saying "why didn't they have Trent line up like this?" Probably, wait check that...I am certain this has been mentioned before...if Maybust was a 2nd or 3rd rd pick he'd be hanging out with Chris Ellis right now in the unemployment line. Same with McCargo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C l u t c H 385 Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 This is a great thread, does anybody have Chan's email address to bring this to his attention??!!! Are you really that stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) Maybin is quick and athletic. He's not a big stout defensive end that can bull rush offensive tackles and get to the QB that way. He needs to be standing up on the edge out wide where he can speed rush and work in space. See examples below. Maybin in 4 point stance. Ends up hitting a wall when he runs into the offensive tackle. Gets pancaked... http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8589/maybinstance.jpg Example of Steelers OLB's in stand up 2 point stance... http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/4089/steelersdefense2.jpg Different angle of defensive alignment and the pressure it brings with OLBs out in open space... http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/261/steelersdefense.jpg If we don't use our personnel the way they're supposed to be used, then we're wasting potential talent on the bench. Wooder....... Nice job with this thread. I agree with you. It doesn't even seem like we are running a 3/4 most of time. From the first game, it was like.....ummmm, ok, what the hell are we doing here? We are in some kind of hybrid, made up cross between a 3/4 - 4/3. Very nice illustration on your part. It has to be something like personnel issue though. There has to be a reason for the hybrid style that we play. I'm hoping that's the case, or Edwards really is in over his head. Or, so it seems. Got any pictures of Maybin getting to the QB from any stance? This is like showing pictures of Brady or Manning and saying "why didn't they have Trent line up like this?" Except for the OP's point was that maybe we should be maximizing Maybin's strengths by lining him up like Steelers LB's. What didn't you get about that? He even showed examples. The OP suggests that Maybin would have some success by standing him up next to a different alignment that we typically use, and implies that maybe that could create more success. Then, showed examples. Something that coaches probably do when they debate how to get the most out of players. Well done to back his opinion. Very good thread. Doesn't mean it would work, but very well done in the thread. Probably, wait check that...I am certain this has been mentioned before...if Maybust was a 2nd or 3rd rd pick he'd be hanging out with Chris Ellis right now in the unemployment line. Same with McCargo... LOL @ Maybust. Edited October 12, 2010 by Lv-Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 its a good idea but at the end of the day he still has to beat the opposing Olman. His pre snap stance isnt going to change that much - unless it allows him to be unaccounted for, and in that case, anyone could rush the passer. The other side of that is he cant generate any less of a pass rush than Kelsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 By the way Jason taylor is 6'6" 250lbs and Maybin is 6'4" 250lbs That's what Maybin is listed as Is it real though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puente Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 It is the same thing the Packers do. OLB lines up standing up and ready to bull rush... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 By the way Jason taylor is 6'6" 250lbs and Maybin is 6'4" 250lbs If you believe Maybin weighs 250 pounds, I have a bridge to sell you. This is the whole essence of the issue. He can't beat blockers straight up because he is too small and weak. He can't even edge rush because it's so easy to knock him off balance. All that's left is to run all the way around the tackle, which means he generally gets to the QB about the time they are huddling for the next play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Except for the OP's point was that maybe we should be maximizing Maybin's strengths by lining him up like Steelers LB's. What didn't you get about that? He even showed examples. The OP suggests that Maybin would have some success by standing him up next to a different alignment that we typically use, and implies that maybe that could create more success. Then, showed examples. Something that coaches probably do when they debate how to get the most out of players. LOL @ Maybust. Yeah, got that before I posted. What you didn't get is that I don't think the use of the Steelers D-linemen (amongst the better talent in the NFL) as an example is relevant to a discussion regarding Maybin, who seems to be one of the worst in the League. In, other words, I don't think his stance is the cause of his lack of effectiveness. Therefore picking some of the best at his position on a defense far more talented than ours and saying, "why don't they line him up like this", is not valid and comparable to the example I gave. Thanks for trying to help me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got_Wood Posted October 12, 2010 Author Share Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) Got any pictures of Maybin getting to the QB from any stance? This is like showing pictures of Brady or Manning and saying "why didn't they have Trent line up like this?" Well, I can show you what ends up happening when he lines up like that. Take a look at this shot. I circled Maybin getting buried (literally) by Matt Light because he tried to bull rush him. Also notice that ALL THREE of the other D-lineman (Ellis, Stroud, and Williams) are stacked on top of each other surrounded by Patriots O-lineman. That's not good. Something has to change with this scheme (it's not just the players). Take a look ---> http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1699/maybin2.jpg Yeah, got that before I posted. What you didn't get is that I don't think the use of the Steelers D-linemen (amongst the better talent in the NFL) as an example is relevant to a discussion regarding Maybin, who seems to be one of the worst in the League. In, other words, I don't think his stance is the cause of his lack of effectiveness. Therefore picking some of the best at his position on a defense far more talented than ours and saying, "why don't they line him up like this", is not valid and comparable to the example I gave. Thanks for trying to help me out. The Steelers scheme under Lebeau is a huge reason why the defense is so successful. I only use them as an example because they are the best in the business at the 3-4 scheme. Edited October 12, 2010 by Got_Wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Taylor uses all three techniques. Sometimes he stands up, sometimes he's in a 3-point, and sometimes a 4 point stance. He's also one of the best in the game. He's got a large array of pass rushing moves, he's probably got about 10-15 pounds on Maybin, and Ryan knows how to mix up the edge of the line with additional blitzers to get Taylor a lane to the QB. A little different scenario. True...And I'm not singling out your Post when I say... The MAIN difference is...Jason Taylor is Jason Taylor...And Aaron Maybin, despite what Todd McShay believed is...well...NOT Jason Taylor... Taylor entered the NFL a bit lighter than he is now, but there was never any question he was a player...Maybin can't even get on the Field in his 2nd year...I'm not questioning whether or not Maybin could be utilized better due to his skill set...I am saying some Folks around here are setting the bar a bit high for this Kid...He's just not very good right now...No matter what stance he's in...He's getting owned out there on a regular basis...He's can't beat out Kelsay, a Journeyman OLB, or a couple Rookies for PT...Lets be real Folks...It's not just the Coaching...Maybin is just not very good right now and he's well on his way to being out of the NFL in a couple years if he can't improve REAL quickly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 True...And I'm not singling out your Post when I say... The MAIN difference is...Jason Taylor is Jason Taylor...And Aaron Maybin, despite what Todd McShay believed is...well...NOT Jason Taylor... Taylor entered the NFL a bit lighter than he is now, but there was never any question he was a player...Maybin can't even get on the Field in his 2nd year...I'm not questioning whether or not Maybin could be utilized better due to his skill set...I am saying some Folks around here are setting the bar a bit high for this Kid...He's just not very good right now...No matter what stance he's in...He's getting owned out there on a regular basis...He's can't beat out Kelsay, a Journeyman OLB, or a couple Rookies for PT...Lets be real Folks...It's not just the Coaching...Maybin is just not very good right now and he's well on his way to being out of the NFL in a couple years if he can't improve REAL quickly... What they are saying is that Maybin would look a lot better if the coach would line him up in such a way that no one will try to block him. Because if the OT can get one hand on him, it is over. He folds like wet tissue paper. But, he does it so quickly. The fact is the coaches have dumbed it down for him big time. They were going to move him to OLB, and he showed he couldn't handle it. So, they moved him to "rush specialist" which is supposed to be his strength. They even dumbed it down to the point of having him pin his ears back and go get the QB. He flat out sucks at it and did absolutely nothing. The coaches saw it and he is now on the bench. I mean, if you are a football player and your best attribute is rushing the passer and the coaches take everything else out and say "go get the QB" and you can't even do that, what else is there? Oh, yeah. Trying him at WR cause he looks chiseled like T.O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 (edited) IDK about this point...I'm no expert but I'm not sure a 2 point stance is more conducive to speed rushing than a 3 point stance...at least when you are Aaron Maybin and have an array of technique problems that need to be neutralized..somehow limiting what he is doing (read: get hand in dirt) might be good. Anyway...decent point perhaps good I'm not saying it's not but one thing is clear in those pictures in the OP...the Steelers a running a completely different fit against a run heavy formation vs. our fit v. what is clearly a passing formation. IDK like I said I'd have to sit here and think about everything I just said and I may sound like an idiot in parts of this post (wouldn't be the first time) but honestly I'm looking at this post and thinking..."this is apples and oranges and the analysis makes no sense." I mean to look at that Steelers screen cap and even remotely assume those guys are about to speed rush..it crazy...I'd think you need someone to set the edge against the run or/and perhaps pick up something up in the flat...the idea those guys are set up to "speed rush" as is argued Maybin should against that offensive set is insane... Sorry feel free to bust me. Edited October 13, 2010 by dayman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 FWIW, a sprinter's stance is essentially a 3-point stance, although some sprinter's use a 4-point stance to improve stability. By using a stance low to the ground the initial burst is improved exponentially. I think it's just that Aaron Maybin is the suckiest suck that ever sucked. Like others have noted, he doesn't appear to possess the requisite football instincts... yet, though players usually either have them or they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 (edited) Well, I can show you what ends up happening when he lines up like that. Take a look at this shot. I circled Maybin getting buried (literally) by Matt Light because he tried to bull rush him. Also notice that ALL THREE of the other D-lineman (Ellis, Stroud, and Williams) are stacked on top of each other surrounded by Patriots O-lineman. That's not good. Something has to change with this scheme (it's not just the players). Take a look ---> http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1699/maybin2.jpg The Steelers scheme under Lebeau is a huge reason why the defense is so successful. I only use them as an example because they are the best in the business at the 3-4 scheme. I agree the Steelers are the best in the business. That's why I disagreed with your conclusion. Like many here (and, apparently, the Bills coaching staff), I think he's just not an NFL caliber player. If it was simply a matter of having him start a play standing up instead of bending over, I'm sure someone would have figured this out sooner. Edited October 13, 2010 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got_Wood Posted October 13, 2010 Author Share Posted October 13, 2010 I agree the Steelers are the best in the business. That's why I disagreed with your conclusion. Like many here (and, apparently, the Bills coaching staff), I think he's just not an NFL caliber player. If it was simply a matter of having him start a play standing up instead of bending over, I'm sure someone would have figured this out sooner. Right, and what I'm saying is that it's not just the stance. It's also the scheme that helps the edge rushers to get to the QB. We're not doing well in several areas on defense. We're not stopping the run and we're not getting to the QB either. And this limits our DB's ability to intercept the ball. When opposing QB's have an hour to throw the ball, someone eventually gets open. I digress... if we can use our interior big 3 (Edwards, Williams, Stroud) to occupy more than one lineman, and get our OLB's standing up on the outside, we have a better shot at getting to the QB. We don't always need 7 guys out in coverage when there are only 4 or 5 offensive players to cover. We're not mixing it up, and our blitz packages are "vanilla". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreReed83 Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Does it really matter what stance he's in? The dude sux and can't produce. Period. You're to tell me that he'd be creating pressure if he was in a 2 point stance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got_Wood Posted October 13, 2010 Author Share Posted October 13, 2010 IDK about this point...I'm no expert but I'm not sure a 2 point stance is more conducive to speed rushing than a 3 point stance...at least when you are Aaron Maybin and have an array of technique problems that need to be neutralized..somehow limiting what he is doing (read: get hand in dirt) might be good. Anyway...decent point perhaps good I'm not saying it's not but one thing is clear in those pictures in the OP...the Steelers a running a completely different fit against a run heavy formation vs. our fit v. what is clearly a passing formation. IDK like I said I'd have to sit here and think about everything I just said and I may sound like an idiot in parts of this post (wouldn't be the first time) but honestly I'm looking at this post and thinking..."this is apples and oranges and the analysis makes no sense." I mean to look at that Steelers screen cap and even remotely assume those guys are about to speed rush..it crazy...I'd think you need someone to set the edge against the run or/and perhaps pick up something up in the flat...the idea those guys are set up to "speed rush" as is argued Maybin should against that offensive set is insane... Sorry feel free to bust me. Look at the second screen shot of the Steelers. Pass formation, and a definite speed rush. I took the screen shot from an actual video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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