Mikie2times

It’s Lee Evan’s. Diggs already showed us what a Moulds/Reed style WR could do with Allen. Not to imply they’re the same. But bigger body types. All around great athletes. Polished. I don’t see any of the three bringing something massively different. High end number 1 style play is what all three would bring. What we have never seen with Allen is a WR he can’t over throw. Evan’s was probably the only one in my lifetime who played here I felt that way about. Maybe Lofton as well, but he was a bit more aged by the time he came here. For the type of guy we saw while they played here, it’s Evan’s. Moulds would be second (my opinion).

Josh Reed or Roscoe

Points allowed per game Bill defenses / Miami defenses 1990: 6th / 4th 1991: 19th / 24th 1992: 14th / 11th 1993: 5th / 24th Not exactly some massive edge towards Miami. Nor was saying our WR core was vastly superior to Duper and Clayton. We had Reed and a declining Lofton (who was clearly till very strong a few of those years). I can't say Beebe is what turns the tide. Now our run game and Thurman, that was a serious advantage. But does Miami even use Thurman remotely the same as we did? Probably not. The idea that Marino would have somehow gave us all these Super Bowls and Kelly sucks is laughable to be honest. Sure Marino had one of the prettiest balls we have ever seen, best releases on top of it. He was a god QB for just passing. But something was missing that Jim had over him. Call it moxie, call it leadership, grit, whatever. Dan never had it and Jim was it.

Huge sleeper off his injury

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_career.htm Factoring in era, it would be very hard to not put Kelly in the Top 20. I would even say top 15. Obviously this list is saturated by more modern QB’s taking advantage of rule changes. But Kelly still ranks at 32 and it is VERY easy to disqualify at least half the player ahead of him on obvious grounds. Now if we want to start getting into the Otto Grahams of the world, sure, but I don’t know how you can compare those guys. But would I take Jim over say, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Phil Simms, Esiason, Fouts, Rivers, on it goes. The point is even not being in the class of Marino and Elways still leaves plenty of room to be in the top 15. At which point how overrated can he be?

You mean he tried to convince himself that he still had a future with millions of dollars involved vs a direct path to jail? Given he killed himself it doesn't appear like he was managing his thoughts on the subject in a very healthy way.

Jackmerius Tacktheritrix

He drove like an idiot. Then left the scene while not knowing the extent of the damage he caused. A massive amount of people could have shared his fate that likely don't even rise to the level of "woman beater" in the scheme of scum bags. Its horrible somebody lost there life in this accident. Also horrible that now two lives are lost.

I don't know that it's right and I don't know that its wrong. But it's fairly common for people around here to know and to know to a certainty. To me, it's way more complicated.

I agree with this. Not that those guys aren't good players, but by pulling the trigger on the extension you basically lock that position up for a very long time. So do these players meet a standard in which we shouldn't be looking to improve further? No. They don't. To me it's pretty obvious most are B level. Further, when we extend this early while we gain some cap savings, we also make decisions without all the information available. Like paying Knox #1 TE money not knowing we would draft a TE right around the corner. We extend Diggs not knowing he will go off the deep end and then get crushed by dead cap. For anybody that says the strategy Beane is using is "correct" they're completely full of crap. I don't know that it's incorrect either, but to come to any conclusion you would have to study the make up of all the NFL rosters and have some method of evaluating if acquisition via trade or FA leads to worse result. Just look at the Eagles all pros from this year: RB Saquon Barkley= Free Agent LB Zack Baun = Free Agent WR A.J. Brown = Trade DT Jalen Carter = Draft T Lane Johnson = Draft T Jordan Mailata = Draft Now does this tell us anything even remotely conclusive? Hell no. But to think our infatuation with internal signings somehow is correct is not right either.

Thank you. We have a literal unicorn. Josh is Buffalo. In a ridiculous way we have had two QB's in my lifetime with Kelly (who we talked about upthread) that literally became the city. I'm not from there, but for us out of area fans it was the identity of the team that made us so loyal. The city and fans are that identity. Some guys like Josh and Jim just connect with our team at the same level. The identity matches what they think makes sense in the world. This is a special time to be a fan but it doesn't mean Josh or the team is beyond critique. I'm more negative about our leadership than most here, but for all the horrendous things our defense has done, injuries, refs, WR/DT malpractice, we still had the ball with a chance to advance for two straight years. We didn't do it. So Josh has to own some that and I'm sure he does. I have no doubt he owns ALL of it. That's who he is.

Got it, Josh was perfect on those game winning drives. It was only the external forces working against him that held him down. He has no responsibility for any of those failures. You have watched the tape and despite multiple neutral parties citing missed opportunities he bares no responsibility. Anybody who doesn’t see it this way has an agenda to attack Josh. Like I said, Homer. Which at this point is getting complimentary.

I really don't see a distinction in a hypothetical that didn't go our way and analyzing situations that did (at complete random) go our way. It's a balanced way to evaluate the nuance. But like I said, sort of sick of the nuance. We faced a game winning drive in the playoffs 4 times and only one of them did we get it done. If you don't think the hall of fame QB should own at least some of that I don't know what to tell you. We just aren't aligned here, which is fine. That's why we debate our thoughts on the site. In the end I don't see many scenarios where we win it all that won't put this conversation to bed. So hopefully we have nothing to talk about in the near future. But as far as support for Josh, mine is at the highest levels.

I’m pretty sure that’s what you started with taking about Kincaid should have done x. Your entire argument is based on an alternate universe. The one I’m talking about is what actually happened. Stop being so offended. I love Allen, it’s the offseason asking for unpopular takes and you got so grossly offended it became laughable. Who the hell is an “Allen hater” around here? My god. The drama.

I like this one

He's shown more than capable of leading game winnings drives. Which is why I prefaced the "regular season" in our first communication. He even showed more than capable in 13 seconds. But as I said the first time, down 4, 2 minutes left in the Super Bowl? Do you feel confident? I don't. That doesn't all reside on Allen, but it's a bit wild that some think none of it does. No, you're just a homer, which I choose not to be and if anybody says something even slightly diminishing towards Allen it tickles you in places you don't feel comfortable. It sounds like a position of insecurity to be honest. All that whining you did about taking single plays away from Josh that should have been made. Well, do you recall his fumble on the last drive in 2023? The one that somehow by some miracle bounced right back in his chest surrounded by half the Chiefs. Then on the same drive, missing multiple WR's which would have ultimately made "Dawkins getting his lunch served" no longer relevant. As would have simply checking it down on the same play. It's just like the arguments with McD. It's all nuance, no substance. At some point, the nuance needs to stop being THE STORY. The actual outcome has to be how things are measured. That is how people who aren't insecure measure things. But if you want to die on the hill of what if vs what is, a lot of people live there so I'm sure it won't be lonely place.

Anti Allen rhetoric? He's the F'in MVP and his value is more than the rest of our entire team. Get a grip.

It could also be a curse. Friction often leads to growth. Eagles totally fell apart two seasons ago. It triggered a massive evaluation process. They win the Super Bowl the next year. Sure, it doesn't always work out that way. But part of me thinks this team could benefit from a total stinker year. Even if it was still McD and Beane running it back. I think that creates an urgency for improvement we haven't really seen of late.

Which has always troubled me because I think something is lurking behind our powerful offense that often doesn't get talked about. I think those drives require precision, timing, and not getting behind the sticks. You will get the best a DC has to offer and those tools along with tempo are what allow you to keep them off-balance. If you look at the two very best of all time in those moments, Montana and Brady, that was the style they played with. The ball was out in a split second, accurately delivered, precise and repeatable. We create our precision and chain movers with the run game, screens, short passes, and QB run game. All of which become less available in that moment. Which essentially puts us into a Brady/Montana like requirement for precision passing. That isn't who we are. We will become inefficient, throw incompletions, fail to establish tempo and get behind the chains. All the things that can't happen in those moments as DC's can become really aggressive.

We make the Super bowl, offense has the ball down 4 with 2 minutes. How confident are you? I'm not at all confident. Regular season, sure, but that big of a moment? I don't feel that I would be. Ultimately we have to become automatic in those spots. All the great teams and great QB's have. I feel we are a long way from that and that lives independent of most the concerns you stated (as valid as they might be).

Your take on this is we made it to all those Super Bowls based on our talent (because clearly Kelly's leadership or ability didn't have anything to do with it) but we lost those Super Bowls because of Jim and his reckless tone setting ways. It's interesting that so many of Jim's teammates followed him off the partying deep end. It's almost like they thought he was, I don't know, the leader. Unfortunately for you, logic doesn't allow all the thoughts you're having to coexist at the same time.

It's not blaming him for the losses, but around these parts he doesn't have any culpability. He should have some. Other plays happened besides the Kincaid drop and again the year prior, even more plays happened outside the Shakir throw. He had game winning drive attempts at Houston and twice vs KC in the playoffs. 13 seconds, he clearly rose to the moment just about more so than anybody in NFL history. But to have 3 of 4 game winning playoff drives produce zero points and get treated like a victim is an interesting thought process by our fan base.

And somebody who has no respect from his teammates wouldn't lead a team to 4 straight Super Bowl appearance. It isn't very hard.

So Dan didn't party? Jim had some immature moments for the circumstances, but to say he wasn't a leader because he partied a bit is really a stretch.

Perhaps, but was Jim a better leader than Marino? Leadership being a driving force behind the perseverance we had in that era. I also think it's a mistake to assume the K-Gun could have been ran in a similar way with other QB's. Maybe it could, that's something we will never know. But I like to think part of it was who he was and how he played vs just a plug and play system.