CincyBillsFan

This year alone Allen made some bad plays early against the Giants, NE and Denver. And in all three games Allen rebounded to have very productive final stretches where he led the Bills to a win over the Giants and put the Bills in the lead with less then 2 minuets to play against NE & Denver. So yes Allen has clearly demonstrated just in the last few weeks that he can "come back from bad plays during game's". What's your next question?

Have you considered the possibility that as a result of McD and the organization trying to calm Allen down and restrain his sugar high personality that he's been told not to be all over the sideline when the O is on the bench? That he's been "coached" to sit there and "relax"? I believe that this is a more likely explanation than one where Allen is suddenly so down and out that he can't lift himself off the bench and just sits there brooding. From Allen's and the organizations comments it's becoming clearer and clearer that McD and the Bills are trying to fundamentally remake Allen into something they want but he's not comfortably being. The hubris of this endeavor is off the charts but appears consistent with what we know about McD. That this is producing a toxic environment in Allen's head seems more likely by the day. Yes the O line has gotten better as it is no longer near the bottom of the league. But it is average at best with real issues at RT & Center (Morse may be to small).

Because I defend Allen with data & evidence I've been called an "Allen apologist" and that I have a bad case of Allen "hero worship". So I thought about it for a few minutes and decided to explain why I'm so fired up about this topic. For over 50 years I've been a passionate Buffalo Bills fan. And throughout that long period of time I've had the joy & privilege of seeing only two elite QB's at the helm of the Bills: Jim Kelly and now Josh Allen. And Kelly held that position for six years (1988 - 1993) and Allen has held it for three and a half years (2020 - now). That means for over 80% of the time that I've been a Bill fan I've had to watch average to bad QBing. So when Allen goes through a rough patch my first inclination is to look at all the evidence before claiming he's regressed or he wasn't really that good or he has some fatal deficiency that he won't be able to overcome. And I remember that Kelly also went through rough patches. And to date my conclusion, based on all the evidence that I've seen, is that Allen is still operating at an elite level in spite of having to deal with some serious headwinds that Kelly never had to. So when I point out what those headwinds are it's not to make excesses for Allen but to show that his rough patches may seem worse then Kelly's because he is working in an inferior organization which has not prioritized the offense. This means Allen has achieved elite status under much more difficult circumstances then Kelly did, IMO of course. It will also require a real commitment to fixing the O line and prioritizing the offense. I thought about the mental relief it must be for a Mahomes or Burrow or Hurts to know deep down that their organizations will move heaven and earth to fix problems on the offense. You can bet that Mahomes knows that once he gets through this season the Chiefs will fix his WR problem just like they fixed the O line problem coming out of their SB loss to TB.

NFL years are like dog years. Five years under McD in the NFL is like you or me working 15 years in a normal job. All I'm saying and maybe I misunderstood the point of the poster referring to McD as just Allen's coach is that this relationship at the professional level is way more complicated and profound then it is in Pop Warner or High School.

But McD is more than a coach he's Allen's boss in the workplace and yes a bad boss can suck the life out of their employees.

He has a much better O line and that's no small thing. He also has one of if not the best offensive minds in the NFL calling plays and running the show. Mahomes can be confident that in the off season the Chiefs will get him more weapons. Just like they rebuilt his O line after the loss to TB in the SB. Don't underestimate the importance to a QB's mental health when he has confidence that the franchise will do right by the offense. Mahomes has it and conversely why would anyone think Allen has it given the reality of how the Bills have structured and built their Offense?

I'll take your first sentence as a compliment except that rather then use the word "apologist" I would use the word "realist". Over the years when Bills fans have periodically jumped out of the woodwork during rough patches and went after Allen tooth & claw I just point out the obvious. You know the stuff that I see when taking my eye test: Allen's overall production and the lack of high end complimentary offensive personnel and coaching that I see on other SB contending teams with elite QB's. You say he's an NFL QB and he'll make some decent throws every game. Fair enough. But when I watch NFL & College football (and I watch a lot of both) I see offensive skill players making all sorts of amazing catches. I see guys grabbing the ball inches off the ground or high pointing and coming down with contested catch after contested catch. Little dump off throws get taken 75 yards to the house as O linemen throw great down field blocks and RB's break tackles & turn on the jets. Now tell me what your eye test says about Bills skill players over the last couple of seasons? Diggs had that awesome 55 yard YAC TD against Miami...............but how many other great plays do you recall our play makers actually making? I recall a few Davis drops of 55 yard Allen passes from last season. And I'm not trying to be a smart a## here but do you remember our skill players making a lot of wow catches this or last season? Just last night Wilson benefited from 2 great catches - a one handed catch that went for 20 yards and that amazing TD catch. Meanwhile did our receivers make a single wow catch? I saw a ball go through Davis hands for an INT instead of a 1st and goal and Diggs couldn't handle a low, but not that low, Allen throw that might have gone for 30 yards. Yea I get that Allen needed to make a better throw there but wouldn't it be nice if Bills receivers actually made tough catches now and then? And I don't see Allen "pouting" I see a man who looks down and out and is very frustrated. Looking lost is not the same thing as pouting. And for the record, Kelly was NEVER expected to do for those SB Bills teams what Allen is expected to do for the Bills today. Kelly had much better coaching and was surrounded with all pro and future HOF offensive talent.

Overly simplistic take on what Knox did for the offense. Sure his drops were a problem but he did make tough catches, especially near the goal line, as well. And the guy could generate some serious YAC with his imitation Angry Man runs. But most of all we probably miss his blocking.

What's intriguing about this is that it offers more proof of McD's meddling in the O. He clearly wanted to move away from Daboll's scheme that featured Diggs and got him a lot of production to something that would better compliment his defense. Can you imagine an experienced veteran OC coming into Buffalo and agreeing to an offensive design that cut down on Allen's running and reduced Diggs role/production? It would take a young OC who owes his job to the Head Coach to agree to that crap. Again this is all speculation but it jibes with the other info we've been getting in bits & pieces.

It also shows a bad form of negative complimentary football between the O & D. Part of that differential is the D allowing the other team to score 1st quarter points. Remember Cincinnati, LV & NE.

Actually it doesn't. Your cherry picking the data from a very small sample size (low number of games). Take out Allen's worst 2 games (Denver/Jets) to go along with taking out his 2 best games (this is the minimum you need to do here) and he has thrown 10 TD's & 6 INT's not great but not terrible. And why are you ignoring rushing TD's & fumbles? Allen has scored 7 rushing TD's and lost 2 fumbles. That would change your story a lot: after you drop Allen's worst 2 and best 2 games - Allen would then have 16 TD's & 6 TO's which is very good.

I'll offer a counter bit of speculation here: the idea that Allen "hired" Dorsey was way overblown. The evidence fits that Allen was okay with Dorey being promoted but there is no proof that I've seen that Allen advocated for him over say another highly respected and talented O coordinator. Again this is pure speculation but maybe all McD offered up to Allen was to promote Dorsey and Allen was "hey that sounds great". So what would McD's motivation be for wanting Dorsey promoted rather then bringing someone in from outside One Bills Drive? To start with Dorsey is going to be a lot more pliable to doing what McD wants then some outside OC who would only take the job with some promises of having autonomy in play calling and offensive design. You know someone who would be like DaBoll and be a thorn in McD's side. McD's recent public comments about his view of what the offense should look like and how it should compliment his D supports the notion that the last thing McD wanted was an ornery, independent thinking OC.

So you're okay with the Bills losing that game 21 - 15 because we use up 2 downs trying not to score so we can try to score on 4th down? I watched a lot of college and pro football this weekend and saw several games where teams couldn't score a TD after having 1st and goal inside the 5. The idea that we wouldn't take the TD as soon as we could get it here is the most insane idea I've seen on 2BD in some time. You people do know that this is different then running the clock down for a walk off FG right?

Please with the "truth hurts" crap. The fact you can't understand my point about the TD/TO ratio being a better metric then just total TO's is not my problem. As to whether I ever post anything "negative" about Allen this is what posted 14 minutes ago on this thread: "Agree. That was a bad INT under the circumstances. And this is where Allen can improve his game." Maybe it's that when I'm negative I'm just not nasty about it. And when a high number of TO's is accompanied by a high number of TD's then yes the defenses ability to force TO's is related to the success of the team.

My point has been to compare Allen's cast of offensive supporting players to what the other franchise QB's on teams that are serious SB contenders have and IMO Allen's are a big step below them. I make this point to show how the problems bedeviling the Bills offense today has little to do with Allen and almost everything to do with strategic choices made by McD/Bean 5 years ago. I think we both can agree though that McD bears more responsibility then either Allen or Dorsey for the sorry state of the offense this season. He owns both the strategic direction the Bills took to emphasize defense at the expense of the offense and his meddling this season has resulted in a precipitous decline in the offense.

Can't help yourself in throwing out insults? BTW, pointing out the counter arguments to your takes on Allen is not "hero worship". But hey everyone has an opinion.

Yep, to many TO's by the offense but also not enough takeaways b the defense over the last few weeks. Really? So can you name a couple of those games? I can think of a whole bunch of games Allen bailed out the D.

Agree. That was a bad INT under the circumstances. And this is where Allen can improve his game. As an aside, what I would live to know is whether that pass was the primary play call from Dorsey or did Allen divert from the primary play call to try to force it to Harty? Allen's comments about running the play that was called makes me think that was the primary call.

And when he leads the league in TD's that's just chopped liver? Again, yes Allen can improve here but the TD/TO ratio is what counts and from that perspective Allen is not doing as badly as his TO numbers look. In fact just throwing out his TO's without mentioning his TD production is just taking uninformed cheap shots IMO.

And Allen's TD production is equally insane. The important metric is the TD/TO ratio which for Allen is a solid 2. Allen could do better here but he's not bad. And if you're going to count a missed 4th down throw as a TO then will you count dropped passes on 3rd down as TD's for Allen?

You mean QB's turning the ball over this much. If you look at the rate of Allen TO's compared to TD's he produces, which is the only logical way to look at it, you get a TD/TO ratio of 2 which is actually good. A ration of 1 or less is considered bad while a ratio above 3 is excellent. So while Allen needs to improve here he is hardly doing bad in this metric. In fact he's doing quite good.

Not if there's a new offensive oriented head coach in town. After all it's not like Diggs isn't getting the ball: He's tied for 1st in catches; tied for 2nd in TD's and 5th in receiving yards.

Not getting the ball? As of today Diggs is tied for 1st in catches, tied for 2nd in TD's and 5th in receiving yards. Seems like he's getting the ball to me.

I've heard some pretty smart QB gurus over the years say that it's not so much the total number of TO's and TD's that a QB has but the TD to TO ratio that counts. Anything at or above a 2 here is very good. Allen is above 2 in his career, which includes a tough rookie season, and is right at 2 this season (26 & 13).

No he hasn't. The D gave up 29 points to Mac Jones and the Patriots that was the reason we lost that game. We beat the Giants with Allen playing great and executing two fantastic and long TD drives in the 2nd half while the D did everything in their power to give that game away. Do you really think Allen was the primary reason we lost to the Jags and Bengal's? I thought Allen played well against the Bucs, didn't you? He was? I didn't notice that. That makes McD look even worse here.