Shaw66

Yeah, I agree, except when your QB throws like Allen, it's hard not to feature the pass.

Klein's snaps just went up.

I wouldn't bother much with stats from a preseason game. They're always kind of weird, I think. From what I've heard, Cook looked like he could have gone for 100 in the game. If Brown is healthy and Torrence for real, Cook running behind them or around them should be interesting to watch. And Harris and Murray running straight through them may also be good. There's a lot to be hopeful for. If things are going well, Bills should never be in the top 10 teams in rushing, because they won't depend on the running game in most games. The running game will be a change of pace, perhaps a really deadly change of pace.

Good stuff, Thurm. I think it's all true. I'm saying something different. I'm saying they didn't pay him what he cost because he isn't their ideal MLB. He simply wasn't worth upsetting the salary structure for. I think, without knowing, that it would be different if they had a current version of Luke Keuchly. A true star in the middle is very valuable, but there aren't many true stars. They drafted Edmunds because they envisioned him being a true star. He didn't become that. Instead, he became a guy who was very useful in the middle, and Beane decided he could get someone who is very useful in the middle for a lot less money. Nothing you quoted from Beane said "we just didn't have the money." Beane does tell the truth, but he often doesn't tell the whole story. So, when he said he'd really like to keep Edmunds, he meant "keep Edmunds at a price that makes sense." I think the whole story is they couldn't agree on a contract because Edmunds wanted to be in the top money category and for the Bills, he was in only the "useful" category, which is millions of dollars less per year. I don't think Edmunds and the Bills ever got close in the negotiations.

I don't agree. You were unhappy with his play. So were a lot of other people. But you don't know what his objectives were for the game. You don't know what the Bills' coaches told him what they expected him to show on the field. The Bills don't game plan this game, and you don't know what the Colts did on defense that Allen hasn't seen all summer long. All he's been doing is practicing against the Bills' defense, and so he's been prepared for tendencies that may be completely different from what the Colts were doing. Maybe his INT was against a defense he hasn't seen all summer. If that's true, he understands that and you and I don't. During the regular season, every week he will be preparing for the defense he'll see that week if he's called on to play. He understands that. You and I tend to look at what we see on the field and his stats and decide he's a disaster. You may say, "well, just look at what he did." But watch video of him playing in the regular season: most of the time he doesn't look at all like that. That leads me to believe that there are other explanations for what you saw on Saturday, and other explanations for what he said in his presser.

I just read what Thurm said and your reply. Outstanding! I don't know, either, if the bolded part of what Thurm said is really accurate. I mean, I know they said nice things about Edmunds and all, but I think when you look at the bigger picture, I think what they said meant something else. I think if we could have a frank one-on-one conversation with Beane or McDermott or both, they would tell you that the middle linebacker they want, in a perfect world, is not Edmunds and it is not any of the guys currently on the roster. I think the fact that Beane did not write a big check tells us that Edmunds is not their ideal linebacker, and the fact that he did not go after a middle linebacker any more aggressively than a third-round rookie tells us that the Bills have the talent on the roster to play the position at a level that McDermott can work with it. In other words, Edmunds isn't Keuchly so the Bills wouldn't pay him, and the current guys aren't Edmunds but they're good enough. I really don't like it when people come on here and say, "this is what I would have done in the draft," which is what you said. But you qualified it in exactly the right way - water under the bridge. You guys both recognize that the GM has an entire roster to build, that it's a multi-year problem that changes from year to year and even month to month. Between the salary cap and the draft, there aren't enough resources to build it all perfectly. There is an endless stream of tradeoffs being made, and they involve educated guesses about players and the future. I've come to realize, again, that McBeane are doing exactly what they said they were going to do when they came to Buffalo. They said they were going to build a roster that was going to get better, year after year. I think that is exactly what has happened. We all can argue about this position or that position, but it's looking to me like this roster is the best roster we've seen for the Bills in this century. I mean, people are arguing about the #2 wideout. Really? Half the teams in the league, or more, would insert Gabe Davis into their starting lineups immediately, and the Bills have Shakir, Sheffield, and Harty ready to go, as well, and TWO starting tight ends! I'd prefer a running back room with McCoy and Fred Jackson, but the Bills have a really solid running back room. They have a top five defensive line and a top five defensive backfield. So, we're left with talking about what is really only a RELATIVE lack of experience and talent at middle linebacker. I'm really looking forward to seeing this team play. Thanks for your post.

I wrote in the thread about Allen that he needs time. And you're not the first to comment about his "delusion." I doubt he's delusional. I think we're the ones who are delusional. First, backups are not starters. At almost every other position, you want your backup to be starter quality, and you'll take the risk of losing as soon as he becomes a free agent. But it isn't sustainable to have a starter quality backup at QB. That's the Trubisky model, and if you do that you just have a series of one-and-dones. And you can't find the right guy, year after year. You need a guy who has proved he isn't starter quality but who can play in the league. That's Kyle Allen. There are no teams who want him as their starter, even though he's flashed some talent from time to time. It's also delusional on our part to think that his own observations about how he played are somehow wrong. Kyle Allen knows exactly what is expected of him this season, and he knows exactly what was expected of him in that game. How do I know? Because McDermott's system is one where the coaches are very clear with each player about what's expected of him. This was his very first time trying to execute this offense in true live action, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Bills set very clear expectations for him, expectations that did not include having a passer rating over 100. The expectations likely were things like get the players in and out of the huddle, make the play calls correctly, get the team set at the line of scrimmage, audible as necessary. I don't know that as a fact, but it's something we've often heard coaches say about QBs who are new to a team (more often, not not exclusively, rookies). So, Allen may very well have been correct when he said things went smoothly. I think he may be the perfect long-term backup for this team: he already understands that his future most probably is not as a starter, he has arm strength and leg strength that means he can make the plays that a modern NFL offense requires of QBs (although he can't make them consistently enough), he has the opportunity to play with his friend and play on a winner. I think all of that means that the objective is to continue to grow him as the backup, maybe even to the point where he replaces Barkley as the player-coach in the QB room.

I haven't read any responses in this thread, so I apologize if this is repetitive or if it's heading off in a different direction. I didn't watch the game; just read a lot of the uproar here about how bad Allen was. I thought as I read it, and I thought the same thing reading the quoted language, that no, Barkley is not the answer, and no, going out and finding another backup is not the answer. The answer is to continue to work like crazy to get Allen up the learning curve. I Josh gets injured in a way that knocks him out of the game but he'll be back next week, then I want Barkley. He can walk in off the bench and finish the game. He'll know the game plan, he'll know the offense, and he'll execute. He's shown that repeatedly. But if the Bills need someone to start multiple games while Josh is out, then Allen has to be the option. Why? Because the offense is designed to attack downfield with Josh's arm strength and to take advantage of Josh's running threat. A defensive coordinator who knows Barkley is starting also knows that the Bills' deep passing game is pretty much off the table and the QB running threat is pretty much off the table. You have to have a QB who has the physical skills to make the plays the offense calls for, and that's Allen. Allen has shown in the past that he can make good throws, and he's shown some decent mobility. Physically, he's the right backup. He may be less talented than Trubisky, but he's like having Trubisky as a backup. In fact, in another thread, someone pointed out that Trubisky's first action for the Bills as a backup also was pretty disappointing. I think the Bills just have to be patient with Allen, keep pushing him up the learning curve, so that he can execute the offense the way the Bills want. Kyle Allen could be Josh's backup for the next five seasons, and that would be a huge plus to the roster. Not if he plays like he did against the Colts, but if he plays like he has in previous seasons. He has a career passer rating of 82. Last season, who had passer ratings around 82? Names like Minshew, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, Trubisky, Wentz. At least based on last season, those are all failed starters, but guys you wouldn't mind putting on the field if Josh want down for multiple games. That's who Allen can be.

What I meant was that the risk of losing Milano due to injury in the upcoming season is as big as the risk of losing Morse. I demonstrate that in my response to you - Morse's history of staying in the lineup is actually better than Milano's. So, if the reason McDermott started Bates at center was to prepare the backup in case Morse got injured, it would be even more important to start Williams over Milano. Milano historically is a bigger risk, and Williams is less experienced in the job than Bates. So, why didn't they start Williams? Because it's more important to get the first team ready for the season than it is to get the backups ready for possibly moving into the starting lineup. If that's true, and I think it is, then the reason Bates got to play center was NOT because he's the backup there. The reason was they wanted to give the guy who's winning the positional battle the practice with the starters. They need to get Torrence ready for the Jets, and the way to do that is to play him with the 1s against the best players the Colts put on the field.

First, we're all just speculating about what the reasons are for one thing or another, and it doesn't really matter one way or another. In a month, real football will start and none of us will care who got first team reps in the first preseasons game. But I think you're all wrong about this. McDermott's job in August his to prepare his team for the upcoming season, and in particular to prepare his team for the first game. He is spending no time at all thinking about whose contract expires when or what he's going to do when one player or another leaves the team after the 2024 season. Morse's and Milano's contracts are no consideration whatsoever in deciding on starters for the preseason game. Since his focus is the Jets in four weeks, McDermott wants his starters practicing together, except for his premier players. At no other position did the Bills start the backup on Saturday to give him reps. Why not start Dawkins' backup? Last season's performance made it clear that Bates still needs a lot of work at guard, so if he's the presumptive starter against the Jets, Bates is the guy who has to be on the field, practicing next to Morse and getting more reps. Torrence getting that start means Torrence is the presumptive starter, which means he must have a lead in the positional battle. Plus, if you want Bates to get first team reps, he needs them with Josh on the field, because that's the most critical relationship the center has. Even if the idea was that it's important to get Bates reps at center to back up Morse, then I am correct that it would be more important to give Williams first team reps behind Milano. Over the last four seasons, Milano has missed twice as many starts as Morse, so there's not reason to assume that Morse has a greater chance of getting injured. Williams has no NFL experience at the position; Bates has plenty of experience at center. No, Torrence didn't get the start because the Bills thought it was important to give Bates center reps. He got the start because, based on what he showed in camp, Torrence is better than Bates. He may have only a marginal lead, but he has the lead. And based on the reports, I'd say the lead widened on Saturday. If he's moving tacklers out of the hole on running plays, that's a clear and important improvement over what Bates ever has been able to do in the run game. And as I said, even if Torrence has some pass blocking issues, that doesn't disqualify him, because Bates's pass blocking was pretty poor last season, too. The happiest man on the team these days is Mitch Morse, because it appears that for the first time in his career in Buffalo, Morse will have a stout guard on either side of him. That should make a big, big difference in the middle of the line.

I'd. Ike to think you're wrong on these Torrence takes. First, if he's clearly a better run blocking guard, then he's probably already won the job, and his pass blocking is probably irrelevant. Why? Because the interior pass blocking was atrocious last season, and Bates gets his fair share of the blame. Torrence almost certainly won't be worse. Second, I don't buy the idea that Torrence got first team reps because they wanted to give Bates reps at center. If that's the strategy, why didn't Williams get first team reps over Milano? Losing Milano is as big a risk as losing Morse, and Bates already has starting experience at center. No, Torrence got those reps because he already looks like the winner and the coaches needed to see whether he could hold up against first team linemen. McDermott is always super cautious in commenting on players in situations like this, so what he said doesn't tell us much.

I didn't listen to that presser. Maybe I should go back to it. Like you, I think it's interesting that Williams and Bernard are in their minds qualified to play the position in terms of size. I think that's further evidence that the Bills have a defensive vision that's different from perhaps some, maybe even most, NFL coaches and scouts, and certainly different from the vision of the public and the sports media. It means, as I've been saying, that they've been drafting players physically suited to play the position they envision, and that the fans here who keep complaining that McBeane have failed to get a quality middle linebacker don't understand what the team is looking for. Those fans, and a lot of the media, are locked on the idea that there are body types for every position, with d linemen being the biggest, edge rushers and middle linebackers are next, then safeties, and then the corners who are smallest. In fact, it seems the way McDermott and Beane are approaching it is that there really should be only slight differences in body type between the linebackers and the safeties. I would guess that, in part, that philosophy is driven by how the offenses have changed. When the Packers ran power sweeps in the 60s, they got their guards, particularly, downfield and literally bull-dozed defenders. You needed to have big linebackers to deal with that power. But as the game has changed, the responsibilities of the blockers has changed. They don't need to knock people over; they just have to get a body on the tackler and provide a screen for the running back to cut off of. As offenses have evolved, particularly in McBeane world, your receivers are as important blockers as your linemen, and they too are just trying to screen tacklers. The result of that evolution is that it's more important that your defenders have the speed and quickness to get to the point of attack faster than the blockers, and to use that speed and quickness to fight off blockers when they do engage. They have to be aggressive tacklers, because they don't have the extra 30 pounds that old-style backers had, 30 pounds of muscle that was useful in dragging backs to the ground. McBeane are trading those 30 pounds for speed and quickness so that their backers can be impactful players in the pass defense scheme, too. It also explains why Edmunds is no longer in a Bills uniform. He was viewed as the best of all possible physical specimens to play linebacker, because he had the speed and the quickness, AND he had old-style linebacker size. What he didn't have was the aggressiveness. No matter how much the Bills encouraged him, he never became a fierce hitter. He simply wasn't a formidable one-on-one fighter or, to put it another way, he didn't play with a wrestler's mentality. We all looked at him and thought "great size." McDermott looked at him and thought "not a fighter." Williams is encouraging. He may not be as cerebral as Bernard, but if he can learn the positions, he's the explosive, attacking guy the Bills want.

Well, that's neither hear nor their.

That's really interesting. I don't know if it's really possible, but it's an intriguing thought. I'm convinced that McBeane want fast, athletic, aggressive tacklers all over the defensive backfield, and of all the linebackers they had in camp (other than Milano) Williams already seems to be the guy who fits that model the best.

As I said, I think they're options with Williams this season will be limited, because they've chosen not to give him experience in the middle this summer. That suggests that if he gets significant playing time this season, it will be on the outside. Milano's not coming off the field for significant snaps, so that means he slides to the middle. I don't know that it's possible for anyone to take over that role without real experience there. All the reads are different. Maybe Williams is turning out to be a quick learner and what people saw yesterday was that he's now getting up to speed. My recollection is that Milano was the same early on - he was eye-popping quick closing and tackling in the run game, and he just kept having more impact from month to month. If that's what's happening, maybe they'll start giving him reps in the middle during the season, and even rotating him onto the field a bit. But I'd think the only he can be a factor in the middle is to have an off-season learning the position.

I don't see how they can switch at LB in mid-season. Can't move Williams there. The Bills aren't giving him MLB reps because he has too much to learn about how the defense works, and it's easier to work in behind Milano. The only thing that MIGHT be possible with Williams is to move the playcalling responsibility to Milano, and then have either MIlano or Williams play the middle. I think the middle linebackers will be Dodson, Bernard, and Klein. That's what you got.

I only watched highlights, and I've seen him play before. He has modern NFL tools. I was surprised to hear how awful he looked, and I'm curious what that is all about. Has he not been doing the homework? Is the offense too complicated to learn in six months? Has he played only in simpler offenses? Really troubling, because I was pleased when they signed him - a guy with tools, good enough to hang around the NFL, and a friend of Josh's.

Thanks. That's what I assumed. Frankly, I assumed the same about Rapp. I don't really know, but I expected both to be solid players at their positions. Difference is that the Bills had a hole at guard, so McGovern starts, capably. They don't have a hole at safety, so Rapp's a backup and, as some have suggested, maybe the dime hybrid safety/linebacker. I hope that's what the Bills have. People keep talking about Torrence being a question in pass protection, but I'm not too worried about that. One of the good things about pass blocking in the interior is that you don't have to make big moves laterally. You need to be quick, and quick laterally for a step or two, but the space to protect is more limited. He doesn't have to bounce outside and protect the inside like a tackle does. From having watched film of him in college, I think he has the quickness. He certainly will have to up his game, because he hasn't seen interior quickness like he's going to see. But I think he has what he needs to build on, and he certainly seems to be able to plant and hold his ground. I'm an optimist, I know, but I think we're looking at something different than we've seen in years, maybe even decades. Three guys across the middle who really can play in the run game, and Brown, who's really mobile, and Dawkins. For the modern NFL, that line could be a really good run blocking team. I'm confident the three in the middle can protect the middle for Allen, and I'm hoping Brown and Dawkins can hold up on the wings. Plus, if Cook truly emerges, the running game should be potent. I think until yesterday, people have been sleeping on who Murray is. They seem to think he's just some downhill, short-yardage guy, but that is not at all who he has been, including last season. He can play. I was okay about getting Harris, but I was more excited about Murray.

Funny. Same thing happened to me. Gunner never had Mrs. Atkinson for English. You never screwed up your antecedents with Mrs. Atkinson.

Thanks, Gunner. Any observations on McGovern and Rapp?

I'm a Gabe Davis fan. I think he's a solid #2 receiver. He'll never be a #1 in a good passing game. I think the Bills should let him play out his contract and test the market. If his stock is low, the Bills might resign him. Otherwise, let him go. Beane signs guys off their rookie contracts when he thinks the guy is a key long-term building block. I don't think that's what Davis. Your #2 receiver is only a long-term building block if he's going to replace your #1, and Davis isn't replacing Diggs. Assuming Kincaid works out, Davis will be at best the third option in the passing game, and that just isn't worth a lot of money. I think, other than your stars, you have to keep turning over your skill position players. I think Beane's done it right at running back. Year after year he's looking for serviceable guys, and he keeps finding them. He got a few good years out of Singletary, he's looking for a few years from Cook, and he has pretty good backups. Same at receiver. You have a parade of guys coming through and fit them into your offense as it continues to evolve. I think the Bills should be planning on a first or second round wideout in the draft, coach him up to fit into the #2 role. If he turns out to be good, he's the replacement for Diggs when the time comes. If he isn't that good, he's still good enough to inflict pain on defenses as the second or third option in the offense. I think it's a dynamic league. It keeps changing, everyone keeps adapting. When you keep good but not great players, it tends to make your team stagnate, and you can't afford to stagnate; you have to keep changing. The Bills already have plenty of keepers: Hyde, Poyer, White, Miller, Oliver, probably Rousseau, Dawkins, Allen, Diggs. Potential keepers in Torrence, Kincaid, Cook. You can't pay everyone. As the current keepers age out, you'll have more money to pay new keepers, but your #2 receiver is only a keeper if he's going to become you're #1. That isn't Davis.

Well, you can say all of that, but I still say it means they're confident they can play with what they have. They already had McGovern, and they trust Bates at guard (except they wanted an upgrade) so if they really wanted a linebacker they had a second-round pick to get it done, somehow. They didn't do that. They didn't go after any quality talent in free agency. That's simply uncharacteristic of Beane. He wouldn't sit still if McDermott needed a linebacker. He always does something. Beane's got a Super Bowl contender. No GM in that position is going to do nothing about getting a middle linebacker, unless he knew he didn't need one.

Listen. You don't like some players. Fine. That doesn't mean Beane's done a bad. Beane has repeatedly addressed the oline, albeit with less success than the Bills needed. He did it again this season, with a significant free agent acquisition and a second round pick, as well as other help at OT. Same with wide receivers? Are kidding? He acquired Brown, Beasley, Diggs, Davis, two excellent tight ends, Shakir, and now Shorter, Harty and Sherfield. Running backs? He got Singletary, Moss, Hines, Cook, Murray, and Harris. You are way off base if you think Beane's don't an overall bad job at those positions.

This is nonsense. You are ignoring what I say and responding with nothing that is responsive to what I said. I did not say he is capable of playing the middle. I said it seems that McDermott has a different view of how he wants to build his defense, and that is to have fast athletic guys on the field who are aggressive tacklers. Williams is a guy who fits that description. They've said they would like to play him in the middle, but that he'll begin his career on the outside. That's what they've said. The fact that other draft analysts says that he isn't a middle linebacker is based primarily on their view that linebackers have to be bigger. It's completely obvious that the Bills don't agree with that. I have said practically nothing about whether I think Williams can play the middle; I don't know. What I do know is the Bills think he can, and you keep ignoring that. Second, you suggest that the Bills didn't plan for Edmunds departure. You continue to ignore, completely, what I've said. If they thought that that they needed help, they would have gotten it. They made no moves to get help, which means they believed that they can the play they want in the middle from Dodson, Klein, Bernard, and Spector. That's certainly what they believed. They did not fail to plan for Edmunds departure. You may not think those guys can play the middle, and you are free to have your opinion. But your opinion about middle linebacker does not mean the the Bills failed to plan for the position. It just means Beane and McDermott think that the talent they have will work fine in the defense they want. Many others may be positing it, but you are the one who is consistently mischaracterizing what I am saying. Bye.

It IS inconceivable. McBeane didn't think they needed more help in the middle. How do we know? Because they didn't go get any help. None in the draft and none in free agency. They drafted a project in Williams, not to start this season. Beane has ALWAYS gotten help in places where the Bills believed they had holes. The fact that they didn't get any help at all means they've always been willing to go with the four guys they had on the roster and PS last season.