Shaw66

And that is why the Bills signed Hareis and Murray. They're a package with Torrence.

Kelce is a conventional sized tight end. Kincaid is a true tweener. He could be a big wideout in a pinch. He's close to Evans. He's like Hernandez was. Kelce is different. Regardless, there is nothing to suggest Beane was copying KC. Nothing.

None of the guyabi mentioned are typical for the position they play. Ep and Groot aren't typical edges, Bernard isn't, Brown, isn't. And there is zero evidence that Beane was copying the Chiefs. Zero. Bills needed receiving AND Kincaid was the BPA. That's all. And he's an unconventional tight end.

Really? It's all over. Rousseau, Epeneza, Spencer Brown, Kincaid, Bernard. They have a particular kind of guy they like - athletic, multi-purpose, competitors. They aren't conventional stars, and they might never work out. But it's certainly original. Yes. I've always viewed it that way. Classic lapse I. Focus that we've seen from Josh once in a while.

It's for the old-timers here. If you don't get it, your not old enough.

Okay, everyone join in: Oh, Kimmy, we love you!

When you're not with is, we're blue.

We don't love anyone as much as you (except maybe Josh).

We love you, Kimmy, oh yes we do!

Pardon me, but you're doing what a lot of us do here, which is to read things into posts that weren't there. I didn't "assess" Torrence at all. I just said that I'm happy that he already seems to have moved into the starting slot at RG, which is true. I said that's a good thing, because it means he's on top of the mental aspects of the game - he wouldn't be there if he wasn't able to handle what they were asking him to do. Elam didn't get slotted like that last season, and Cook didn't, either. McDermott moves guys up only when they've shown they can handle what he's being asked to do. Torrence isn't being asked yet to knock people on their butts, but he is being asked to know and execute his assignments, pick his man, pick up the calls at the line of scrimmage, and if he didn't do all that correctly in OTAs and practice, he wouldn't be playing ahead of Bates. In other words, he's done everything they've asked him to do better than Bates does it. That's a good sign, and because it's been a position of weakness for the Bills, that was an encouraging thing to come out of training camp. I hadn't seen the reports about today. Yeah, you and others get it. Obviously, no one knows how good these guys will be, but we can be pleased about developments so far. This is one. We also can be unhappy about others. For me, I'm disappointed Elam hasn't taken charge at CB2. I'd hoped that he would. By the end of the season, the Bills were ready to anoint Cook over Motor, and I was hoping the same would happen with Kair. Hasn't happened.

All we can do is wait and see how it works, but I'm encouraged. As we've been saying, repeating, in this thread, the two guards look like they're upgrades, and it's hard to know what the Bills will get out of Brown. But there's some reason to be optimistic. McDermott loves his jackknife guys. There are a whole bunch of them on the team. The result is that players are a lot of positions don't look like the best in the league, but they're versatile. Versatile is how they want their offensive line to be, apparently. Not the best pass protectors, but better than average. Not the best power run blockers, but better than average. Not the best downfield blockers, but better than average. The Bills seem to hope that they can pull together winning performances from dedicated athletes who can different things as needed. Torrence clearly does not fit that mold and frankly, I'm encouraged by that. I don't care that he maybe can't get out on screen passes like Bates can. My priorities at that spot are (1) can you stop the pass rush, and (2) can you win straight ahead. He looks like a guy who can do that, and if so, I'll be happy. To paraphrase what others have said, in terms of pass protection, if you're going to have a weakness, right tackle is the place to have it, because the QB sees the rush coming from there, and because Josh has shown extraordinary ability to avoid the rush from there. So, if Brown is weak in pass pro, that's not so bad if Torrence can control his man, because Josh can handle the lone rusher from the right. Having said all that, I also must add that I've never been a huge Dawkins fan. All in all, offensive line was the concern when the season ended, they've done some things to address it, early reports are positive, and we'll see what happens.

There's no wishful thinking in my post. I didn't declare the offensive line top 10 or anything like that. I just said that the reps Torrence is getting suggest he's already winning his battle, and that's a good thing, because that's where the Bills most needed help. And McGovern, whom I didn't call an all-pro or anything. I just suggested that what we've seen so far suggests that the Bills will have better starting guards. I said Brown is a concern, so I wasn't doing any wishful thinking there either. I don't get it.

That's funny. Thanks. I do the same thing with "you" all the time. I like Morse. I like him because I think the Bills like him for his leadership. I think he takes charge of the line the way he's supposed to, makes the calls, keeps everything in order. Frankly, I think that's why they like Bates, too.

Where did I say I don't like Morse? I said standing his ground is the weak part of his game, and from my observation that is correct. He gets overpowered sometimes, and he isn't a powerful straight-ahead blocker. He isn't a great center to run a QB sneak behind. As you said, he's slightly better than average. He's smart, he gets downfield well on run plays, and he leads the line well. But last season, when he had two guards beside him who struggled, his lack of power and strength hurt the Bills. The two guards had trouble in pass protection, and when one had to doublet team a tackle, Morse also had trouble protecting Allen. If McGovern and Torrence can do better than Saffold and Bates, Morse's weaknesses will be less exposed, and his overall play will improve.

I agree. It was the pressure up the middle that was the problem. And standing his ground is the weak part of Morse's game. He gets pushed back. If the Bills can hold the middle, Josh can deal with the rush from the right side.

You guys can say all of this, but I'm not buying it. Bates knows the system and o'Cyrus doesn't. Bates's talent is his quickness and brains, the stuff that shows up without pads. Torrence's bulk is what gives him an advantage when the pads come on. So if Torrence already is earning snaps ahead of Bates, in the kind of practices where Bates should have the advantage, I think it means Torrence is impressing. The Bills already seem to have decided that Williams isn't ready for the middle, but Torrence hasn't struggled that way.

Thanks for the link. Certainly has more and better experience than the guys held over from last season. I didn't know anything about him.

Absolutely right about Tremaine, and it's a good point. His special skills dictated the style of play to some extent. But it's also true about Davis. One thing that's true about the NFL is that it's constantly adjusting, and the NFL is adjusting to Davis. If you have Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison, you don't have to worry about the league adjusting, but Davis isn't one of those guys. He's just an ordinary #2 with a particular skill set, and the league is figuring out how to deal with that skill set. Better to move on to a different skill set, just like the Bills have done at middle linebacker. At the end of the day, it's just a different way of saying the guy isn't good enough. You extend Tre White, because even though the league knows by now what he does will, he still is valuable. Same with Milano. Couldn't say the same thing about Edmunds, and I don't think we can say it about Davis. The only #2 worth extending is a guy who is a true #1 (like Reggie Wayne), and Davis isn't that.

Of course, but like most good players coming out of college, they've already shown that they're good at knocking the other guy around. The challenge for most of them is from the neck up. I would guess that from watching film the Bills already know that Torrence is physically better than Bates. The fact that Torrence is running with the 1s suggests that his head is in the right place. We'll see.

But there's a reason they didn't pay Tremaine, and it's the reason they won't pay Davis: You can't pay everyone. You have to earn your way to being a long-term keeper on a good team, and you earn it by being more than just above average at your position. Taron Johnson earned it, Milano earned it. Davis is just a nice player, as was Edmunds. Edmunds wasn't worth it to the Bills to pay him what Chicago did, and Davis probably won't be worth it, either.

I've read the camp reports for three days now, and the best news I've heard is that Torrence moved into the right guard slot of Day 2 and survived at least well enough to be there again on Day 3 (and Bates started getting more work behind Morse). It wasn't a surprise that McGovern immediately slotted in at left guard, and his arrival almost certainly means the Bills have upgraded the line there. It's still early, but if Torrence already is showing that he's more capable than Bates on the right, it's really good news for the offensive line. Two guys who can competently man either side of Morse can mean a big change for Josh in the pocket and for the running backs. Morse does a good job, but he isn't the stoutest of centers, and having solid guys on either side allows the Bills to take advantage of his strengths rather than having his weakness exploited. I still have my concerned about Spencer Brown, as do many people, but if right tackle is the biggest problem across the line, I can live with that. Brown has the potential to be special, but If necessary, Doyle or Quessenbery or someone can be at least serviceable.

I'm not sure Davis ever could be a 75-catch, 1200 yard guy. I'd like to think he'd become Mike Evans, but I seriously doubt that's happening. Kincaid is the guy who could become that guy. That's why he went in the first round and Davis went in the fourth.

This is good stuff. Exactly. I'd throw in Isabella. I keep scratching my head about why they signed him. In part, it's becoming apparent that Beane always will go after speed. Maybe they see him running the jet sweep. But maybe they see him in the Beasley slot role. I don't know that anyone's tried him there much, and I haven't looked to see if he has the athleticism to play, but I think he has the quickness. But if you can have a guy look him running out of the slot on one play, threatening short and threatening deep, and you can have a guy like Kincaid in the slot on the next play, you're really testing the defense to match up. I think the Bills are trying out everyone in the slot - Kincaid, Harty, Sherfield, Shakir and now Isabella, to find a couple of guys who will be threats on short- and mid-range throws. And the real point about all of this is the threat as much as the actual production, because what the threat does is force the defense to get away from doubling Diggs. Remember Diggs?

This is a great point, and I need to be constantly reminded of it. (You forgot to mention Milano.) But I can still hope. The reason I can hope is that when you have a team as good as the Bills have, a guy with talent but not necessarily a future can flash for a half-season on more. KC's been having skill position players do that for a few years now. So a guy with, reportedly, high-end talent like Shorter might thrive under McDermott's leadership and in a system where he just has to be able to attack the holes in the defense that Josh, Cook, Diggs, and Kincaid create. That is, you don't have to be an eight-season keeper at the position - you just have to fill the need that a good offense creates. So, yes, you can't depend on low draft picks. But sometimes they rise to meet the need.

I just came back to this thread and I'm amused by the comments. People jumped all over transplant for the suggestion, even though he himself said it wasn't likely. And despite jumping on transplant, the discussion about Davis is pretty good and raises interesting points. I like the original post because it was creative without being stupid. Beane does things we don't expect, and transplant did a good job thinking about what kind of thing Beane might do with what he's looking at right now. There might be some other things, but the list is short. Corner #2 kind of looks like the receiver room - a lot of talent, but no one has taken the job yet. And you hate to trade corner talent. MLB, but really, you can't trade anyone there until you know what you have. Not trading Bates - he's your backup guard and center. With Nyheim gone, you're not trading a back. But Davis, at least you can make a case, especially with how well the receiver corps has looked so far in camp. I like the point Gunner, I think, made: If you want to make a Super Bowl run, you don't make yourself weaker by trading a guy for a pick when you're likely to lose the guy in free agency next year and get a comp pick for him. Why not use his talents, and if he has a big year, the comp pick might be better than you can now in a trade. Trade him for a player? Now, that might make more sense. Davis for a guy to replace Hines? That would make some sense. It doesn't look like the Bills have a quality speed back behind Cook, and that's a weakness. Finally, I'll. say what many people have said for the past few years: It's great, finally, to have training camp discussions here come down to hypotheticals like this. I mean, discussing whether Davis is a true #2 or not, and having that beat the hot discussion, or discussing whether Elam should the #2 corner with Jackson and Benford on board is a whole lot better than talking about why the GM didn't find a left tackle , or #1 receiver, or a #1 corner. I noticed it listening to Hyde's press conference. This is a team full of veterans whose every sentence is backed up by an unspoken thought: "We know how good we are. We aren't here talking about how this team is going to get to .500. There is only one objective and we all know we are this close to it." Great time to be a Bills fan.