Shaw66

If you watch the video, forget about Torrence, and watch McGovern and Edwards. They're just as good. Really solid interior line blocking, with Morse or Bates at center.

Yeah. I have higher expectations than most, because I trust that McDermott has figured this out. The objective for the season, as always, is to get through the first half of the season with 6 or 7 wins. By then, some of the younger players will be contributing in ways that we don't see yet. In the middle, it may be any combination of Dodson, Bernard, Williams, Milano, and Rapp. Plus, thee will be adjustments in the style of play to accommodate the talents of the various players. The question really becomes how good will the defensive unit be. The middle linebacker position may be the limiting factor in how good they will be; it's up to McDermott to see that that doesn't happen.

He didn't say he was a bust. All that's happened with Bernard is that he hasn't developed as they hoped, and then he got injured. When he's back, he may very well begin to take time from Dodson.

It is very unlike Beane, when faced with a hole in the lineup, to do NOTHING. Bernard wasn't a plan. Bernard was a shot in the dark, and they knew it. They traded up for Kincaid. They traded up for Elam. They didn't trade up for a linebacker. Yes, it's possible that everything they tried failed. I don't think that's very likely. I think it's much more likely that they allocated their resources thoughtfully and decided that inside linebacker was the position where they could best afford to sit tight.

Z I've been thinking about this. They weren't willing to pay Edmunds, David or Wagner. Thatsbpretty good evidence that the league in general values linebacker talent higher than the Bills do. They paid the going rate for Miller and for Poyer and for Oliver and for Milano, but they aren't willing to pay for a MLB. Seems pretty clear.

That's correct. But they regularly bring in players at least to compete. They didn't do that. And you can talk can talk about David and Wagner but like Edmunds, they weren't willing to pay for them. The Bills decided that they have as much talent at the position that they need. They had two years to plan for this. What we see is the result of their planning. What it says is that they don’t believe they need top talent at the position, because they did nothing to get top talent. They could have planned the cap to keep Edmunds or sign a good free agent. They could have used a premium pick to draft someone. They did none of that. I find it hard to coclude that the position is important to them and they just couldn't find anyone.

You've really got this backward. First, I don't know if the middle linebacker is the least important position on the defense. I don't know the ins and outs of what linebackers do. What I keep saying is that I look at what Beane and McDermott and try to deduce what they're thinking, because what they're thinking is about 1000 times more important than what I might speculate about. And when you look at what Beane and McDermott have done, it suggests that THEY think mlb is the least most important position. Why? I won't repeat it all, but if you look at all their player personnel moves over the last three years (when they knew they were losing Edmunds), they didn't do anything to bring in a quality replacement for him. They beefed up every other position on the defense, and they picked up a few guys to stick in the middle. They had a freak athlete playing the position and they let him go. Why you think that their allocation of resources is not an indication of what's important to them is baffling to me. You think they spent $100 million on Miller because they think the pass rush is unimportant. The Bills have a couple hundred million dollars and multiple first and second round picks invested in this defense, and they've spent NOTHING on a middle linebacker. You don't think that indicates something about what they think they need in the position?

You're absolutely right. The Bills could've paid Edmunds. The question is why didn't they? The answer is because THEY DON"T AGREE WITH YOU. You say they should have prioritized middle linebacker. They gave Miller the money they could have given to Edmunds because they prioritized edge rusher over mlb. They gave Jones and Settle and Ford and Oliver the money they could have given Edmunds because they prioritized DT over middle linebacker. They paid White. They paid Poyer and Rapp. They drafted Cook and Elam and Kincaid and Torrence because they prioritized running back and CB2 and receiving talent and offensive guard over mlb. They prioritize EVERYTHING over middle linebacker. They have reasons for what they do. You're free to disagree with them, but that doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong.

The problem with this is that you acknowledge and then ignore the wisdom in the post you quoted. The point of that post is that you can't be strong at every position. The cap and the draft assure that. So, you say, essentially, "I agree with that but offensive line is too important." If the Bills had neglected the edge over the past five seasons, you'd say, "I agree with that but rushing the passer is too important." "I agree with that but #2 corner is too important." The whole point of what you quoted is that teams have to balance needs and allocate talent as well as they can. The Bills allocated resources to the interior of the offensive line this year, and it should have a real impact on the team's performance. The reality is that players have to step and do their jobs. All the players, the best of them and the others. And, sure, we can all worry about Brown's back or Dion going down. We can worry about Miller's knee not holding up, Josh's elbow, Micah's neck, and Diggs's ego. We can worry about everything. Absent serious injuries, I think the Bills offense is going to be great this season.

Well, I'd love it if the Bills got more depth at tackle, but I doubt it's coming. There's a reason the Bills are choosing from 10 receivers for six or seven spots. There's a reason the Bills are deep at running back. And there's a reason why the Bills don't have great depth at offensive tackle. The reasons are the league is deep at receiver, the league is deep at running back, the league is not deep at offensive tackle. It's in the nature of the evolution of the game. The NFL has changed the rules, to make it easier for offensive linemen to block, and it's still really tough to keep the defenders off the QBs. The defenders are just too good. Every team wants edge rushers, because edge rushers can get to the QB. I've tinkered in my head about radical change, like making offensive holding legal. The league's gone part of the way there already, letting the linemen put their hands all over defenders, but it's still not enough. Journeymen tackles get eaten alive by edge rushers. So, yeah, get me all the depth you can at tackle. In fact, I think the Bills' starting tackles is one of the weaker positions on the team, so don't just get me depth; get me one or two better starters. Good luck with that - all the good tackles in the draft are gone before the spot where the Bills pick, and just about every quality tackle in the league gets paid by his team, so they don't hit the free agent market.

That Beane drafted Edmunds is now ancient history. What matters is what Beane's done in the past three years. Essentially what he did, it appears, is learn from the mistake he made when he drafted Edmunds. The simple fact is that for the last three seasons, Beane has known that he would have to make a decision about Edmunds. What he decided is that he wouldn't pay him his value in the market and would let him walk. He didn't make that decision because he couldn't afford Edmunds. He couldn't afford Edmunds because he'd already decided he wasn't going to spend a lot of money on a middle linebacker. How do we know that? Because he spent his money on every other position on the defense, that's how. He gave White his money. He gave Oliver his money. He paid Taron Johnson. He paid Poyer. He paid Von Miller all the money that he could have used to pay Edmunds. He paid Jones, he paid Settle, he paid Floyd, he paid Ford. He paid Milano. He paid every position EXCEPT middle linebacker. He drafted edge rushers. He drafted a corner back. The linebackers he drafted were almost after thoughts. Beane dedicated essentially no resources to linebacker. Now, maybe you think he just forgot the position and woke up this June and suddenly realized he didn't have a middle linebacker, but I don't. Beane's allocation of resources is evidence, clear evidence, of what he thinks about the importance of the position. There can be no other conclusion. Beane and McDermott decided they had enough talent to play linebacker this season, so Beane did nothing to upgrade the position. Whether that decision was good or bad, whether it will bite the Bills or not, can be know only as the season plays out. People can have opinions now. They have opinions about Shakier, about Elam, about Torrence, about Allen (not that one, the other one), but those are all just opinions. Five months from now we'll know better which opinions were correct and which were not. The same is true about middle linebacker. Today, anyone's opinion that the position is trainwreck is just that, an opinion. Beane and McDermott CHOSE the middle linebackers they have. They chose them for a reason. I'm prepared to wait and see how this is going to work.

Well, I think you're unwittingly making my argument for me. I choose to look at the question from the end of the last season. For the seven months since the season ended, Beane acquire no one new, except Williams, whom they did not expect to have any impact at the position this year. From that perspective, the Bills did nothing. If, however, I take the broader view that you suggest, that Beane's been working on the problem of replacing Edmunds for a couple of years, then it proves my point that Beane and McDermott don't think the position is very important to defense in comparison to other positions. Why? Because while Beame was drafting Elam to be the #2 corner and maybe White's eventual replacement, while he was signing Von Miller and Leonard Floyd and Poona Ford, while he was signing Taylor Rapp, while he was doing all of those things, he acquired only Bernard and Spector. What better evidence do you need they don't think the position is as important as other positions on the defense. Throw in, wherever you'd like, the fact that they weren't willing to pay Edmunds. Any way you choose to look at, what McDermott and Beane have done (or not done) to fortify the position tells us how important they think the position is. They're willing to let Dodson or Bernard or Spector run around in the middle and attack anything that comes their way. They have not been willing to spend resources, either cash or picks, to get the kind of player that many fans imagine is necessary in the middle.

Yes. As I've always said, no one is always right. Their judgment could be wrong, and it often is. They clearly blew it on Saffold, for example, and the Bills played last season weak at guard. But the fact that McDermott said he has concerns at middle linebacker after one preseason game doesn't mean that his judgment was wrong. It means his middle linebackers aren't playing well enough yet. He knew coming into the season he had work to do on the middle linebacker, because unlike every other position on the defense, his middle linebacker, whoever wins the job, will have had no experience playing the position in the NFL. Of course he's concerned. Let's see what happens over the next six weeks. If Beane makes a desperate acquisition to fill a hole in the middle, we'll know that they made a mistake in the middle. I'd be surprised if that happens.

I agree with this, to a point. But I think you're missing an important point, which is that one can argue with how he filled holes, but for the past few years Beane has always taken a shot at filling perceived holes. It's what I said earlier - he's consistently gone after offensive linemen where he sees a need, running backs, receivers, DBs. He had a need at backup safety, and he got Rapp. The point is, we can argue about the bodies he chooses to put in holes, but he always puts a body in it. The Bills haven't gone into any of the last three seasons without a hole in the lineup. Yes, the cap and the draft limit what he can do - every GM has more positions he'd like to upgrade than he has resources to do it. So, he makes choices. Sometimes, because he doesn't nave draft capital, he'll fill a hole in the line with a Feliciano or a Saffold. But the point is, he always does something. At middle linebacker, he did nothing. Eventually, he "added" Klein. From day one they admitted that Williams was not likely to be the solution, at least not this season. So, Beane did nothing. That can only mean that he McDermott believe that what they had was good enough. As always, people can argue about the judgment that they had what they needed, but I don't think it's arguable that Beane just ran out of money before he got to the middle linebacker. If they needed someone, he would have gotten someone. The Bills signed Leonard Floyd, Shane Ray, Taylor Rapp, and Poona Ford to a top-five defense, and Beane went after NO ONE to play the middle. That, in turn, leads to the conclusion that they don't think linebacker is a priority position. That doesn't mean that they'd say the position isn't important. All positions are important. But in relative terms, middle linebacker is the position that they think they fill with a good athlete, but not one where they need a great football player.

I've said this before: A lot of what I do when I think about the Bills is watch the decisions and try to figure out why they were made. In this case, it seems pretty obvious. Everyone could see that the Bills didn't have an up-and-coming star behind Edmunds. Put aside the fact that there isn't an up-and-coming star behind almost any starter. Beane has a history of filling needs. As much as people complain about his failures on the oline, there is no question that he has actively pursued upgrades there for several years. He addressed running back year after. He addressed the receiving corps every year. He addressed the dline. He addressed corner back. He goes and gets help at any position where there's a need. So, I asked myself why didn't Beane go get a linebacker, either in free agency or in the draft? The only logical reason is that he didn't think he needed one. Everyone is all upset that all the Bills have is Bernard and Dodson, Klein and Spector, and Williams. Well, does anyone actually think that Beane and McDermott didn't notice that's who had they had in the middle? Of course not. The reality is that they decided they had the position covered. Now, after one preseason game, people are nearly hysterical about how bad the middle linebackers are. Well, maybe we ought to wait until the Bills play some real games before we declare a disaster. I mean, were the middle linebackers using canes or walkers to get around against the Colts? Was the defense a failure, and was that failure directly attributable to the middle linebackers? I don't think so. In fact, the defense gave up two touchdowns. Hardly a crisis. As I said, I'm withholding my judgment on the position for weeks, if not a couple of months.

Who are the NFL's game-changing middle linebackers? Where is Ray Lewis, Brian Uhrlacher, even a Keuchle? Defenses don't feature that kind of player any longer.

This is true. It was noticeable last season. At least it looked that way to me, even though rushing yards allowed per attempt were essentially the same both seasons. These discussions about the MLB have me beginning to wonder if the MLB is the least important player on defense. Think about it. Pretty much everyone here cares more about the corners, the edge rushers, the interior defensive linemen. The biggest problem with the defense last season was that the Bills were missing their safeties. Edmunds, who is a sloppy tackler and who plays with very little aggressiveness, was the Bills leading tackler. Doesn't that suggest that a solid, good athlete who is an aggressive tackler should be able to fill the position (in the run game)? The middle linebacker is a guy who runs around in the middle and makes tackles because the guys all around the perimeter have forced the play to the inside. There are good middle linebackers in the league, by the aren't the game wreckers who used to play in the middle 20 or 30 years ago. I'm taking a wait and see approach on this. I'm just not convinced that there's as big a problem in the middle as many here (including me) have thought.

He said he wore short sleeves in any weather, because it help him feel where the tacklers were.

What a player!!!

What we heard was that Hyde and Poyer both could play either, and that added to their value in disguising coverages. We also heard, I think, that to a lesser extent Milano and Edmunds could do it, too. It's not the positions that are interchangeable. It's that it's helpful of the players are interchangeable.

I saw the same thing. And I'm sure McDermott saw it too. He was confident he had enough talent on the roster to cover position, so I have to think he saw more in Bernard than we did.

It's too early to tell.

I think all of this is spot one. As someone else, I think if you'd asked the Bills in May who the MLB would be, they would have said Bernard. I think Bernard was less than they hoped, and that's why Dodson was competitive. Good chance it'll be Bernard when he works his way back in, and Williams later in the season (perhaps with Milano or a safety calling the defense). And heavy doses of Klein. Far from ideal.

Every season or two there's someone some of us overvalue because we like the story. The league is dotted with them. Most of the time they're just that - overvalued.

All good and interesting stuff. It makes me think that you (and I) don't understand enough about their philosophy about team building. I think if you and I could have a frank conversation with Beane, he could explain the rationale of his drafting, and the success of it. There are some principles at work that we all hate to admit. One principle is that it's difficult, very difficult, to get a real star in the late picks of the first round. You can't get a Tre White there every season; in fact, he was more of an anomaly. It's more likely that you'll get a Rousseau, or worse. The result of that is that not every year will you get a guy that you'll want to write a big check for in five years. Another principle is that the first principle is even more true about offensive linemen. In the bottom of the first round, the stud tackles are gone, and in the bottom of the second round the stud guards are gone. Maybe they luck out with Torrence. Given where the Bills pick in the draft, if they want a stud tackle or a stud center, they're going to have to spend major draft capital to trade up in the first round. The third principle is that because of the second principle, you have to get more linemen out of free agency. The second and third principle are both true in part because offensive linemen are unprepared for the pro game when they come out of college. Most of them have a lot to learn, and it takes many of them years to learn it. The result of that is, I think, that the Bills have decided that it's a better use of their resources to look for a Conner McGovern and to be opportunistic when a Torrence falls to you. There are arguments to be made about that approach, for sure, but I think what they're doing is something along those lines. Another principle is that they have particular relative values of positions. I think, for example, that just like most other teams, the Bills don't want to spend high picks on running backs. And, as I've thought about middle linebacker, I think they also don't like to spend high picks on linebackers. I think the middle linebacker position may be in the process of being devalued like running back. It's the position in the defense where you can get by without a stud. When you look at how the Bills play defense, I think there's a good argument to me made that the middle linebacker is the LEAST most important position, behind eight defensive linemen, two safeties, the outside linebacker and three corners. That sounds like sacrilege, but really, is there any other explanation for the failure to commit resources to the position? They think that that position, more than any other on the defense, can be filled by any committed athlete with the right speed and quickness. My bottom line is that these guys definitely are not stupid, and they have well thought out reasons for what they've done and what they're doing. Might they be wrong? Oh, sure. Absolutely. They make some bad decisions, because everyone makes some bad decisions. But I've gotten way past the point where I think I'm seeing things that they haven't already seen and considered.