Rochesterfan

Agreed and the plausible explanation is filming for the video undershorts and having the scout as a voice over. The scout explaining what he looks for and then some video showing what that looks like. The kind of thing that fans eat up to help better understand the function. The nefarious reason is to cheat and provide the staff all of the calls during the game. Both scenarios make equal sense and either or both could be true. That is why the original spy gate was set-up this way and why it makes sense. The end result is that the Pats cheated - the level needs to be determined and that is totally influenced by what you believe.

From the accounts I have read - the Bengals security videotaped them taping the sideline. They were doing it in plain view and not hiding it. The security team then told them it was against the rules and that was when they stated “could we delete the film”. It sounds to me like someone getting caught doing something wrong and trying to get out of trouble. Whether they knew or not depends solely on what lens you want to look through. If you assume it was nefarious and they knew - it is a terrible look and signals guilt. If you assume they are just some random guys hired to film a part of a series - then it is an accident and oh crud - how can I quickly make s right- I don’t need this - can I just get rid of it and we move on. Either way - the Pats need to be punished. The difference is the level of involvement- does it hit Belichek or not.

Not anymore independent than the crew from Pegula sports and entertainment, but they sometimes hire external 3 rd party camera crews to do some footage. Everyone is doing these cool behind the scenes documentaries now for added content and many of them hire people that are not part of the company. It could lead to nefarious activities or be totally innocent. The Pats do not deserve any benefit of the doubt, but it also does not mean that Belicheck should be fined and suspended for this. As I stated - I think the team deserves heavy punishment- big fine and loss of highest 1st round pick - no matter what. I also think if they can link it back to the football side- you burn it down - forfeits, suspensions, etc.

The film crew asked to delete the footage not the scout. If you were told that you took photos of something inappropriate- what would you suggest? My party was in Vegas years ago and they were taking pictures of some lovely ladies on the strip being very inappropriate and their “manager” stopped them and basically said you can’t take photos and as being aggressive. The first though was of crap - can I get rid of the photos and not get in an further trouble here. It is a perfectly valid response in both an innocent situation and if they were doing something completely illegal. The response is the same - I still goes to the reason why it was done and if it was a one time or many time thing.

I would agree 100% if it was Pats video crews doing the taping, but like many of these produced documentaries- it is typically outsourced to independent film crews. I have no idea what they have been told or not, but it was already stated on previous videos - this crew was allowed to tape activities on the Pats sideline of coaches and players for other segments of the documentary. My guess would be a true independent crew would not see the difference in taping the Pats sideline for earlier pieces and taping the Bengals sideline to roll under the advanced scout job function. Look - I totally agree that it looks really bad looking through the lens of the Pats history, but I can totally buy where this type of thing could happen by a crew that doing what they consider to be their job in filming this segment. Things like this happen all the time where something is done and posted or filmed and you do not realize the impact because you are looking at it from one perspective and not another. The Sam Darnold seeing ghosts comment - never should have aired live that night - it was a bad look by a production team that makes for good TV, but is not something they would allow to go out. I totally agree that that the screw up in an of itself deserves punishment and I stated as much. What I can not say is whether I believe his was done deliberately and the entire organization deserves punishment - or if this was a true accidental move - where they deserve punishment, but not at an individual coaching/owner level. I could easily see something like this happening with the Bills production crew - doing video of draft work or front office management and caching something on tape that is inappropriate or against the rules and it being a rue accident. I also understand the Pats have already used up their credit with the previous cheating and you are free o assume the worst - I have no issue with that - that is totally your prerogative and right - I just am waiting to find out if this is the only situation or not because there is no reason to be filming the Bengals - that would be a stupid team to get caught against.

I will not absolve the Pats of Cheating or whatever they did in this issue, but there are a few massive issues with your take. First - the Browns were the home team and they were informed of the crew being on site and doing the filming. The NFL and the Bengals should have been informed, but if the true intent was to get info about how advanced scouting works - they really only needed to get permission of the home team to have a camera in the booth. Second - what does an advance scout do - he records plays, signals, situations, anything that is going on that can prepare the team for the upcoming game. Again not to believe the Pats, but if you are doing a discussion on all of that and you want to run video under the discussion- it would make perfect sense to film what he is looking at. He is watching the Bengals sideline - that is what I would want running underneath so as he talks about his job - you can show what he is doing. The conspiracy that it just happens to be their upcoming opponent in the Bengals makes sense because that is where the advanced scout would be. The advanced scout is not being sent to a team they are not playing - he is going to their next opponent to begin gather advanced intel - so that makes complete sense that it would occur at that game. Look - none of that is to say that this is not 100% a bull pucky lie to film upcoming opponents- I would not put that past the Pats, but it could also be 100% a true innocent mistake. The issue is that NE does not - nor should they - get any benefit of the doubt because they have already done this and because this follows the exact pattern given in the past about how to handle this situation. The problem is I really do not know which it is and I am not sure how you could ever tell. There is enough plausible deniability that this could go 100% either way. The admission by the Pats was an acknowledgement that the film crew was wrong, but not that the football side did anything wrong. The fact that this film crew - has been given permission previously to film the Pats sideline as they previewed other jobs blurs the line even more as they did not have an issue doing that - why is this different. I think in the end - the NFL should definitely punish the team - fairly heftily- but unless there is something connecting it to the football side - I do not punish Belichick. A fine and loss of another pick - highest 1st rounder - as a start because ultimately they are responsible for the functionality of their crew, but if you find anything that shows knowledge of this and understanding from the football side - they should burn it down.

Yes he did.

Holy god - you can not be this far gone can you. All of the analytics say it is right to go for two at that point. The Bills analytics say go for 2 at that point. You seem to be stuck on something that makes no sense. Why could they not have gotten the ball back 2 times - this is your first incorrect statement. The Bills scored with 7 minutes left in the game and immediately stopped the Ravens and forced a punt after 90 seconds. They got the ball back with 5:30 minutes and moved to field goal range with over 2:30 minutes left and they were running clock. Even at that point if the needed 9 points - they kick that field goal and have 2 timeouts and the 2 minute warning - they should get the ball back with just under 2 minutes. They easily could get 2 possessions plus they would have run more hurry up - so they might get the ball back with over 2 minutes left. In the end the point was moot because they made it and then ran clock to try for the final score. The issue I have with your take is 2 fold - first by kicking the PAT and leaving the 2 point conversion for last you are playing with the only option being a tie or a loss - it is not the correct mentality. If the Bills has scored and had to go for two - everything is coming down to one play and that to me favors emotion and the defense. There are no other options because you were not leaving any time because you do not want Baltimore to drive - so you are basing everything on 1 play and the defense has advantage and timeouts - whereas the offense is out of timeouts - another advantage for the defense. The second issue is that earlier you go for the two you can dictate choices and have options. The Bills might have needed 2 possessions at 9 points, but by converting as they did - they had options of kicking and sending to overtime or lining up and going for the win. They could even have used that option if they scored to force Baltimore into using a timeout. The options open up if you score and go for 2 and you know what you need to do to win. Perhaps on the TD there is a penalty to the 1 and the Bills chose to go for two and the win. We will not know, but all of those options go away if you kick the PAT after the first TD. The only option is going for two to tie and or missing it and losing - there is no play for a win.

I don’t know what hours he rolled with, but he took a bunch of coaches down to Cleveland for a MLB playoff game rather than getting prepared for the NFL game that weekend. I do not think film study and preparation was a huge part of his plans.

It is not dumb that the order is different- it makes complete sense and is driven by the NFL schedule. For divisional foes - common opponents should be ranked higher because each team plays a balanced schedule and the majority of games are common opponents. That is a much better and more fair tie breaker within the division because using the Conference record first would mean that a previous division winner that drew 2 extra games against better opponents from the previous year may be at a huge disadvantage. For example: If Dallas/Philadelphia tied and had the same divisional record - if you went to Conference first Dallas has a much harder Conference because their 2 additional teams were Saints/Rams versus Seattle/Atlanta for Philadelphia. It makes sense since other than those 2 games - the rest are head to head and common - you would use that as a better judge of teams. The Bills beat Tennessee/Denver - while the Pats lost to two division leading teams in KC/Houston - same thing - not really a fair way to judge the 2 teams. For non divisional tie-breakers - your number of common opponents goes way down and are usually imbalanced - so a better separator is Conference wins to highlight that importance against Conference foes. The NFL tried to use the best criteria to separate teams - it just so happens that the best criteria is different within the division and within the Conference.

No - sorry

There is no trade off. Roberts is excellent on special teams and if you replace him with McKenzie - the issue is the fumbles go way up. Ask Carolina about allowing Ray Ray to field punts. The position Andre plays is typical of how most teams build. You have a core special teams guys that handles kickoff and punts and does not turn the ball over - just like you have a dedicated kicker, punter, and snapper. Any production he gives us on offense is a plus. Is Duke a better WR - yep, but he can not do the things that Andre does - so that is not the replacement that would occur. It would be sitting WR speed (McKenzie or Foster) for size. The Bills are also running more 11 personnel with 3 WRs - so I could see a trade off of a TE for a WR at some point, but to start a thread about Roberts being useless is just crazy. Plus if your big issue is not having Duke on the active roster - then post that in the Duke thread. Don’t blame Roberts - that is still one of the top returners in the NFL - for keeping Duke on the bench. It should be an easy and clear choice of Roberts over Duke - it is not even close. There are many other positions to sit to activate Williams if they think he will be a difference maker.

Sorry Nope - AFC record is not the next tie break - it is common opponents and the Pats have us there. It has been discussed numerous times. The Pats loss to Houston - assured them of having a better common opponents record if the 2 teams are tied. We need either a better record than the Pats or we need to beat the Pats and Jets and Miami beats NE - so we win divisional record. Sorry to burst your bubble. Winning out does not get us the division without a loss by NE to either Cincinnati or Miami so the Bills have a better record. The Bills can lose to Pittsburgh and still win the division winning the last 2 if NE loses to Miami, but not if their 2nd loss is to Cincinnati.

Yeldon showed his issue in camp fumbling, but the biggest reason to keep Yeldon away is what we saw yesterday once again. Yeldon cannot pass block at all. Both Gore and by extension his protege Singletary are much better at picking up free rushers. Yeldon gives you pass catching, but can’t block - so again you are putting him in and taking plays from Singletary because they are closer in skill set and Singletary is better and should be on the field.

Totally disagree- McCoy is done also and no where near the professional that Gore is. Gore was brought in to help teach Singletary how to be a professional and take care of himself. Singletary’s progress is all the reason to have Gore and not McCoy on this team that I need. Yes Gore is pretty much done, but Yeldon is nothing better and has shown an issue holding on to the ball in pre-season. When Yeldon has been active he gives you nothing and really is more of a Singletary replacement and I want Singletary in the game not Yeldon. I am not scratching my head at this. The FO has come out and told you Gore’s role - Mentor to Singletary. I understand not seeing long term vision in short term goals, but this FO is not looking at one year - they are looking at how to build a team for many years and sometimes that means have veteran professionals available on the field and in the film room to get the young players to understand and grow.

I thought the Bills did a great job. We forced 7 punts today nearly a quarter of their yearly total. The run offense barely cracked 100 yards. They put it all out their and it just wasn’t enough, but if that is the best team in the NFL - we played toe to toe. We can play with anyone.

Foutes repeatedly talked about with that cross wind the QBs could not put any loft on the ball. The pass that ended up short to foster across the middle - Allen put some loft (probably 3-5 degrees) and the wind knocked it straight down 7 yards short. The wind in that stadium has gotten into his head, but we should not be throwing those passes in gusty situations- it decreases the probability even more.

They had already stopped them once and you do realize that strong run game barely cracked 100 yards and was 27% on 3rd down. We easily - even with the Bills running clock. Could have kicked a FG with 3:30 left - kicked off deep - and forced a punt with over 2 minutes left if needed. We had timeouts and the 2 minute warning left. There was plenty of time to get the ball 2 times if that was what w needed. As it was - we only needed 1 score so we ran clock and used 4:30 minutes on the final drive rather than doing any hurry-up. That was because we knew we only needed 1 TD - it effects the outcome.

Well said. Especially since after our TD and 2 point at 7 minutes - we stopped the Ravens with over 5:30 left and got the ball back. We were then in FG range at 3:30 even without hurry up. We still had timeouts and the 2 minute warning. There was time to kick a FG and kickoff deep and still have nearly 2 minutes left if needed to score the TD had we missed the 2 pt. The percentages change very little because being down by 15 late - either call has little chance of changing the outcome, but going for 2 early opens up more options and allows you to adjust you thoughts sooner.

It was the right call. They were in FG range with 2 minutes left and timeouts. They could have kicked it then and gone onside. The point is they knew they needed just a TD - so they ran the ball and clock. They ran 4:30 off the clock. If they had needed 9 - don’t you think they run a different drive. They had plenty of time to turn that into 2 drives.

This is a crew that likes to call penalties and NE has had a ton to keep KC drives alive early.

They were down by 15 - they needed a 2 TDs and one 2 pt conversion. You are correct if they missed they would have been down by 9, but if the missed on the last TD with under 30 seconds left - they lose by 2 with no time to correct the issue. The 9 pts is irrelevant because if they had kicked the extra point - it was still 8 and you would still need the 2 pt later.

Yes, but you needed the 2 at some point to tie the game.

Totally disagree - completely the right call whether he makes it or not. It allows you to focus on what you need as early as possible. The later in the game makes it a 2 pt to tie or a loss. With 7 minutes left the Bills still had time to have 2 possessions if needed.

Incorrect - your assumption is they do not get the 2 pt. If they do not get the 2 pt with 7 minutes left - you know you need 2 possessions- you can speed up- use your timeouts - etc. You know what you need and still have time adjust. If you wait until the end and miss it you are done. There is nothing you can do if we had scored with John Brown and needed the 2 with 30 seconds left and that is the point they miss the 2 pts. They knew they needed 2 TDs and one 2 pt conversion- you go as early as you can to adjust what you need - especially with timeouts, momentum and a chance.