Rochesterfan

Just a quick look at NFL.com looking at Kick returners and looking at their individual numbers show what you are looking for. Most of the top returners are WRs (few RB and DBs) and they tend to average around 20 catches from the WR position. Some like Tenn and Buffalo are under 10 and the Washington KR was top with 34 catches. Nothing earth shattering - very typical bottom of the WR numbers. You also have some RBs like Brandon Bolden in NE that returned Kick-offs and then basically sat on the bench with 15 rushes for the season. Additionally when you add Punt returns - you immediately see several teams were forced to use a different PR from the kick off returner (like NE) and their primary PR also provided nothing on offense with 2 catches and 2 fumbles on the year. What it looks like to me is that Buffalo is the norm and is lucky to have a guy that can do both kick and punt return and he was sure handed enough not to turn the ball over. 11 punt returners in the league had 2 or more fumbles on the year and 15 Kick Returners had at least 1 fumble. So in the end you have a guy as a specialist that returns both Kicks and Punts, does not turn the ball over, and is among the top returners in yards and efficiency and the complaint is that you get nothing on offense. The other thing o look at is who does it when Andre was inactive. McKenzie is the most often used player and he averaged 5 yards less per Kick return and 4 yards less on PR. Everything points to the Bills are fine using Roberts exactly as they are right now and continuing to adjust as needed.

Voted a bunch of times - will try more later this evening. Let’s go Buffalo.

I wonder if they will blow it up this year and let Marone be the fall guy. Then see where they fall and decide on a coach to rebuild. I would be looking to move on from or trade a bunch of those contracts - ala Miami. Then decide on the GM and Coach to rebuild it.

I thought they brought him in specifically for Foles and the Philly connection. Wonder if this bodes poorly for Foles and that massive contract.

Henry was huge, but to me the biggest difference is the Tennessee WRs made the plays and the Bills WRs didn’t. That TD catch was amazing and was significantly more difficult that the Duke Williams or the Brown catches both of which would have given the Bills big scores at a crucial time to put the game away. The catches by the WRs early - allowed the Henry runs at the end. If Brown pulls in that toe tapper and the Bills score a TD there - they get up 14-0 and if other things play out they are up 20-0. If Duke catches that ball - especially being held, but we see it many weeks, the Bills win the game. Josh made some mistakes, but much like last year - the catch radius and the playmaking by the Bills WRs is sorely lacking.

Wow match this with your Tennessee take - nice troll job. Unreal.

My god - what are you arguing. Once again (slower for you) - We were discussing the NYJ/BUFF game from years ago and how that would be interpreted with today’s rule. I am not sure how else to explain this. The discussion you keep quoting was not talking about this play in this game. In this game - the returner caught the ball before hitting the ground - so the ground part has absolutely no bearing on the play. As I have stated in this thread several times - what I do not know is what/how the safety signal works for this play and how this returner has used in earlier in the game and season. I also want to see other returns - because I think this has happened without the kneel down and not been an issue (just considered a touchback), but it was obvious both officials did not consider it a fair catch - so in that case without additional evidence - I think they should stay with the call on the field.

I think the issue is that like many rules - they define it during the off season with the videos and training provided to the teams and Referees. They many times allow things that fall outside the exact definition of the rules. We saw it with the catch rule and PI - sometimes they expand or contract definitions not by changing rules, but by changing emphasis. The kickoffs have been that way on and off this year, but what happened in the playoff game was a further extreme. As to Cody Fords block - that was a big point of emphasis this season. Offensive players are not supposed to block anyone if they are facing away from the goal they are heading toward. It is supposed to protect from blindside hits, but even in this case with the guy looking at him - it is still illegal. I don’t agree with the rule, but it has been called that same way many times this season. I think both rules are having the effect the NFL wants - they just suck for the timing.

Correct - the argument was why when it happened to the Bills in the Bills/Jets game it was a Jets TD. Since that game they changed the rule to mirror closer to punts to lessen injury. Kickoffs now that break the plain of the goal line and touch the ground are considered down once they touch the ground. That is new compared to the game in the Bills/Jets where the kickoff was considered a live ball.

This can’t be - I read right on here that the players don’t care and will be off on their millionaire vacations and only the fans really care. Especially because we coddled them by showing up at the airport - what could we be thinking. Duh!

I am not responding to McBride at all - read what I was responding to - the Bills/Jets kickoff from 2 years ago that was being used as a reference. I do tend to agree that I believe I have seen guys flip back kickoffs without kneeling, but I do not know what agreement or signals were in place.

Sorry, but the rules changed with the new kickoff rules. If the ball on a kickoff touches the ground in the end zone without being touched - it is now a touchback regardless of where it hit the ground first. It can hit at the 10 and bounce into the end zone and it is a touchback - like a punt. The Bills/Jets kickoff would be a touchback today. They updated the rule. The ball is ruled dead the moment it hits the ground in the end zone. In the original Bills/Jets game because no Bill touched it outside of the end zone - if Gillislee had recovered it in the end zone - it would have been a touchback not a safety. It would only have been a safety if aBills player muffed the kickoff in the field of play and the ensuing momentum put the ball in the end zone where a Bills player would have recovered it. I would love to see a collection of every touchback this season - because I swear I have seen the exact same thing several times - guy catches the ball and just tosses it to the ref. It is nearly impossible to look for touchbacks though because it is such a boring play. I assumed because they do not show much of the kickoffs - on these deep kicks if they signal the refs and catch it - the play was over, but what I do not know is if they talked about that. The referee on the field obviously thought it was a live ball - so he did not believe it was giving up, but as with all rule changes - maybe he was living in the past for a second.

The players should feel bad and angry and quite frankly ticked, but not the fans. The fans should be their to show their support to get through and that we care (that is why the fans that travel is so important). Based upon the comments of the players - they get it - they understand and need to grow and get better. To a man it sounded like they were angry and taking this to heart. It will make them better and stronger. The fans going or not going does nothing to condone or detract from the feelings - it is a chance to say thank you one last time and hopefully show support to guys in red, white, and blue.

So in other words - don’t do what worked. Change your game plan to something you have not done. Sounds like a plan to lose - do what you do and only get aggressive when you have to.

I said this in another thread - I just do not understand why Buffalo got to be the butt of every joke, but Cleveland that has now matched the streak and compiled a significantly worse record during that time - skated by. I always hate to wish ill will on another fan base, but I hope for our sake this goes at least one more year - so Cleveland can own it.

This is an excellent point. I guess my question is at what point do you know that and how is it determined. My guess is that the Bills will not cut him during the off-season unless they are sure they have upgraded (see Clowney, etc.) and they need the money. I believe he goes into training camp as part of a rotation with Hughes, Johnson, a new draft pick, and maybe whatever DE they sign or re-sign (ex Lawson). I expect that one of the higher priced veterans (Murphy or Hughes) will be released at cut down depending on the talent and play, but I suspect they will let them battle it out in preseason- in case of injury. I do not think they want to create a hole until they are sure it is filled. The other thought is if they feel Eddie got better on the PS - and think he is capable of filling Lawson’s rotation - then maybe you cut Murphy and shoot for a top end FA, but I feel they would rather play it safe with the known than risk getting someone top end that doesn’t fit the 1 of 11 and creates attitude. I think they would prefer to find that high end - elite talent in the draft and mold him into their system.

This is a terrible take - it is hugely different than game 4 of the preseason. Game 4 of the preseason- you still have 90 players on the roster - you have more than enough players to sit both your starters and back-ups. This game you had your regular roster. You do not have enough players to sit more than a small handful of starters. They do not have enough players to sit both Tre and Wallace. Now why have JA play a series or two - no idea, but Wallace was playing no matter what - with Tre sitting they only had 3 CBs left at that point and ended up needing McKenzie to play CB for a series.

I’ll bite - if we were a higher offense and a worse defense - like in the Rex years - I suspect that we would be missing the playoffs or have little shot at winning anything - much like the Chiefs that keep getting it handed to them in the playoffs - hence their push for defensive players this off-season. 300 yard games mean nothing that has been shown in each of your other poor threads. It is a stupid stat, but for some reason it is the only one you keep coming back too. Also I think we need to get you a better thesaurus to understand “supporter” - not sure it is being used correctly. Frankly if the team was a top offense and a bottom defense - I would not be happy with the team. I do not find teams like KC with a better than average offense and a poor defense to be fun to watch. I would much prefer a top end defense and a mid level offense. I think defense travels better and works better in all weather and most importantly wins when it comes to the playoffs. So I guess in the end - if things were switched - I think we are a worse team in general and I think our chances of success would be worse. I will take JA completing 60-65% of his passes for 220 yards and let the defense lead this team because I think that gives them the best chance at both short term and long term success. Think Baltimore here rather than KC. More running and defense and less shoot outs.

I totally disagree that it is not in question- it appears that it is not in question for you, but as many other are pointing out - in your very thread and you seem to be happy to ignore - they do not feel he is very conservative and he has been changing with the team. Many of us see a guy that has been constantly changing and his tendencies have changed with the team as it grows. Year 1 he was conservative - with a very bad offense and a questionable defense. Year 2 as JA became more accomplished as a rookie - he became more aggressive- going for it more and punting less - especially as he got past mid field. This year the offense is marginally better and he has been more aggressive yet. He is middle of the pact for 4th down attempts - which most definitely is a sign of aggression - especially for defensive HCs. He runs both hurry up and regular offenses - so he is not overly conservative with his style. I agree he does not step on the throat of the other team, but the offense still has a ways to go (it is the weakness of the team). He has tried a few times and things have not gone well. I think he is working the long game on this and would rather hoist the burden on the more experienced and consistent defense than put JA and the offense in a bad position. I think you have made up your mind and although many others have presented various facts of how he has changed- you are choosing to believe he is a finished product. I am not convinced that is the case. I think he will continue to grow along with this team and they are becoming better together. He is working hard to do what he feels is in the best interest of the team and sometimes that is different than what the fans think.

Totally agree - He calls McDermott conservative with no real definition, but then argues with no good reason why others are not. It is a poorly thought out premise with no basis in reality. McDermott is not overly conservative or aggressive by any measure. He goes for it on 4th down as much or more than others. He tries for TDs rather than FGs as shown by their Redzone TD percents and going for it on the goal line. His run to pass ratio does not lean overly conservative and we have had games where the team starts out with 10-15 passes right from the get go. Definitely not conservative. His defense is a zone based defense meaning he wants to flood zones, but he mixes up the defenses and attacks and blitzes in a normal way. It is not overly conservative - nor is it super aggressive. The biggest thing to me is how we completely miss the changes in his coaching and people are still basis things off his first year. McDermott started off with a weak team and was much more conservative. He had a bad QB in Taylor that he did not trust and did not instill confidence in the passing game. He kicked lots of FGs and punted on almost all 4th downs. It lead to blowouts, but he understood the team was weak and even when getting blown out he stayed conservative. Now he is a totally different coach. He trusts JA more and has been rewarded more - so he goes for more 4th downs and punts less. He passes more and has one of the better Red Zone scoring teams. He has 2 WRs that are putting up career years. Do not make up your mind on whether McDermott is conservative or not - he is evolving as his players grow and change. My guess is if the offense gets 1-2 more players this off-season and are a bit more explosive- he becomes more aggressive. Now do I believe he is going to be Doug Pederson level aggressive - Nope, but everything points to him continuing to move above the middle of the pack as the team becomes better. Now the final thing on this thread - many types of coaches win Super Bowls and sometimes they are conservative and sometimes aggressive, but the problem is that successful coaches that are conservative- do not get labeled that way. Lombardi was ultra conservative at the end of the conservative era, but it worked for his team. Marv - even with the no huddle- was super conservative. The offensive philosophy does not change his coaching style. Doug Pederson is super aggressive, but it backfires on him on several occasions, but was enough to win at the biggest time. BB - like McDermott - falls squarely in the middle and was more aggressive at times and has been more conservative at other times. There is no one right way - you need to have the proper feel of your team and push the right buttons at the right time.

I guess my real question is about your expectations in performing for him versus let’s say Zay Jones or McKenzie. All 3 guys averaged about 2 Catches or less per game. They averaged between 7 and 10 yards per catch. The biggest difference is McKenzie can play special teams and is used for running plays and Duke is not. Duke played in 3 games and after an initial good game - he had 1 catch in each of his next 2 games. It is not like they benched a guy getting 5 - 10 catches a game. He also gives them nothing else except receiver play - so you lose something from both Foster and McKenzie going to the bench. I am fine if they want to use him, but please do not act like he was some kind of playmaker they benched. His stats are not better than the guys currently playing and he gives them less flexibility when playing.

I absolutely hear what you are saying, but I will wait to pass judgement. The biggest difference between this game and the 4th preseason game is roster size. The Bills May be able to rest some starters, but remember there are very limited replacements at the moment and you figure some guys with injuries are already probably going to be out - Morse, Nsekhe. You also have guys like Hughes and Liuget with some minor injuries that you may or may not sit. That leaves very few people you can just sit. I would rather see them get some of the starters ready and then take them out - rather than be forced to play them with little prep time. I would also prefer to see the majority of starters together to best protect individual players and then get them all out. I would hope that back-ups see 1/2 to 3/4 of the game, but remember they are not regularly playing more than a few snaps - so conditioning and timing come into play.

It would be a good idea, but the refs still have to determine the exact moment the runner is down. You also have issues depending upon which way the ball is being held and where the sensors are located. It could help a small bit, but unless you have sensors all over the players and the ball - you are still going to get bad spots.

Even if he is talking about that (which he is not) - let’s be fair. 3 runs for 5 yards is partially accurate as one run was for 4 yards - a perfectly fine drive start. The other two were bad. You also need to consider that during one of these drives on first down after a conversion - we had an 11 yard run. So after taking the lead on first down we ran the ball 4 times for 16 yards is that fair to say? You can also consider the fact that on the other first down plays we threw 2 incompletions and got a 5 yard penalty. So it is not like passing on 1st and ten got you into 2nd and short.

This is total bull and completely irrelevant. This Bills and Pats team are both nearly equal, but the Pats had a better record against common opponents - so it is no surprise both games were close. This “so called” worst Pats team is the AFC #2 seed and has only lost 3 games to division champs - it is not like they are the Bengals. They boast a top defense and special teams unit. They are far from the worst Pats team during this run, but go ahead.