Kirby Jackson

Xavier Worthy had 19 playoff receptions in 3 games!! Keon Coleman had 29 receptions during the season. We so desperately want Worthy to be a gadget guy. He looks like prime Desean Jackson

This is why it’s so important to hit on those first few picks. That’s the best way to find top end talent for this team. If they were able to get McDuffie instead of Elam, how much better would we be feeling? McConkey or Worthy instead of Coleman? Zay Flowers over Kincaid? It’s crucial this year that at least 1 of those 3 picks develops into a top 10 player at their position within the next 2 to 3 years. For example, it would be great if Kenneth Grant became a top 10 1T or Trey Amos a top 10 CB2 (if those were the guys that they picked). They have enough guys but not enough dudes.

Fun topic and congrats to you both!! That’s pretty cool

We disagree here. McDermott needs a better D. There’s nothing worse than Josh off the field with the game on the line. Give me Josh Allen with elite wr and the game on the line vs. Sean McDermott with an elite DT and the game on the line. Fair and don’t disagree with any of those (part of why I’m in the camp of signing Cook).

Sure and Tom Brady was a 6th. Maxx Crosby was a 4th. Christian Benford was a 6th. You can find stars anywhere but that isn’t a good strategy. You HOPE that you’re 5th becomes Diggs. You don’t plan on it. The Bills need dudes not guys. Josh is a dude. He may be the ONLY one on the team. They have some close and Benford probably rises to that level (the OTs as well). They don’t need another Mack Hollins. They NEED another guy that wins because he’s better than the guy in front of him, not because of scheme but because of talent. When the scheme gets stopped you need to have the talent to make plays. I think 1T is a bigger need than WR. I think an elite WR makes a bigger impact on this team than an elite 1T. Again, I’m not against taking any position, at any point (except early QB). I am 100% against taking need over talent at a more impactful position. They made mistakes in the top of the last 3 drafts. That’s why they have a lot of guys and not enough dudes. Totally fair and I’m fine with that. I’m not opposed at 30 though if the right guy is available.

Are you against WR in the 1st? I think he’s suggesting that the value may be there in the 1st but not likely to be in the 2nd. Burden/Egbuka/Golden all have a chance to be there at pick 30. Each would be considered decent value there. The guys at the end of round 2 wouldn’t be considered great value. I don’t want to speak for @OldTimer1960 but that’s how I read it. Basically, you can consider WR at 30 but probably not with those late 2’s. The way that I’ve always viewed it is, “take care of what Josh needs first and fill out the rest of the team from there.” They may not have that luxury this year with a starting CB spot open. I do firmly believe that the Bills have a bigger need at 1T than at WR. With that being said, I think a WR will have a bigger impact on the Bills getting over the hump. My draft philosophy, with this particular group is: 1) Address any positions without a starting option if the value is there (CB2). 2) Get more weapons for Josh if the value is there (really talking WR). 3) Get bigger and nastier on the DL. 4) Get another guy to compete at the S position. 5) Look for a P and long-term backup QB. The depth of these positions and how the board falls will determine when each of these is addressed. You probably have to take a CB in the 1st 2 rounds if you don’t sign a viable stopgap or starter before the draft. Otherwise, you can let the board play out INCLUDING DT. You COULD do something like: Egbuka, Landon Jackson, Thomas (if the board broke your way) and then trade up into the 3rd for Josh Farmer to be your DT. I’m not saying that this will happen or even be available, but something like this IS possible (insert whatever names you want). The point being that the Bills are not forced to draft just this position or that position. They have needs but can address them in whatever order depending on the board.

Beane after timing Restrepo:

Many of us have been screaming to get more help for Josh. Don’t make him overcome a lack of weapons. Let those weapons be an accelerant to the best player in franchise history. If the Bills, god forbid, don’t win one with Josh Allen, this will be a WAY bigger deal in hindsight. It will be viewed as malpractice. If they are to win, it’ll be BECAUSE of Josh Allen. Priority number 1 should be, “get him whatever the hell he wants/needs to be the best version of himself.” Everything else comes after that. Other teams are built differently. The Bills are perennially contenders because of a bad division and Josh Allen. There are no other reasons. They have okay coaching. They have had pretty solid defenses. They’ve had average to below average skill players and an above average OL. They’ve won 5 straight division titles because of Allen. They are doing it without all pros and pro bowlers. They are doing it without guys that are top 5 at their positions.

Nice job as always @GunnerBill. I just don’t see Sanders going in the top 3 so I liked how you addressed it in this mock. If I can get decent odds on Dart going ahead of him, I’m taking it. It’s just a feeling but somewhere like New Orleans feels possible.

Hamlin isn’t very good. He knows the system though and is okay depth. If they brought him back to be the 4th or 5th safety, I’m fine with it. I hope that the guy from Washington passes him and they NEED Bishop to not be bad again. They used a 2nd round pick on him. They passed on some guys that are already ahead of him at the position.

When I say “small trade up” I was talking about using the 2nd. Based on the value, you could have gotten into that range if they had a partner. Maybe they didn’t have a partner? Maybe they weren’t willing to pay the price? There’s almost always a trade to be had if you’re willing to pay the price. I was off the belief last year, that they should have done whatever was necessary to get one of the top 3 WRs. I didn’t care about the cost. The Bills don’t need more guys. They needed a number 1 WR and felt like that was the only way to do it. Thomas would have been behind those 3 for me but an option. I’m sure that they tried to go up but you’re right, there probably wasn’t a deal to be had. I wouldn’t have overspent for Thomas at the time. I would have for any of the top 3.

I totally agree. I liked the Kincaid pick at the time but not the Coleman pick. For me, I don’t really take much issue with either player. They seem to work hard and both tried to tough it out through injuries. If anything, my “issue” is with the front office continually missing in that part of the draft. The last 3 years produced Elam, Kincaid and Coleman at the top. That’s just not good enough. In those same 3 drafts KC landed McDuffie, Worthy and Karlaftis in the first (plus Rice in the 2nd). The Bills have done great on day 3. They just need to get better at the top of the draft to find more impact players.

There’s a wide range between bust and overdrafted. It’s too early to call either a bust. I think Kincaid is less likely to bust but also less likely to take a huge leap because of age. Kincaid will be a quality starting TE. That’s not what I want if I’m trading up in the first. I want an all-pro. He could become that but he’s not close now. Coleman looks like a part time WR. He looks like he could become early Gabe. That’s a fine role. That’s not what I wanted when the team needed a number 1 and guys drafted around him are that. No one is writing either off but they are absolutely not where you’d hoped that they would be.

Please hurry up and get here draft

We make so many excuses for our guys!! Do you think, if you gave Beane truth serum, and he could go back to either of those drafts he would have gone up for Kincaid and settled on Coleman?!? No chance, and they are still trying to make up for those mistakes. Kincaid was the 25th pick in his draft and Thomas the 23rd (4th WR drafted). Kincaid is WAY more of a big slot than a TE. Maybe that changes based on Beane’s postseason comments, but he was brought here to be a dynamic pass catcher. FWIW, Kincaid didn’t even outperform Thomas’ teammate at TE last year (not even close the year before). You need to get to the level of Evan Engram before you can think about the elite players. Imagine what Engram or Thomas could do with Josh Allen and this OL?? Coleman caught 10 of the 29 balls thrown his way when he returned! Why the excuses? Why can’t we just say, “that’s atrocious?” As of today, he looks like the 7th-10th best 2nd year WR. That’s where he was drafted so it’s to be expected. The question becomes, “with a massive need at WR, how did you not move up or draft someone better?” You could have made a small trade up for Thomas, stood pat and taken Worthy or taken the trade that you made and picked McConkey. Because of how much the Bills neglected the position last year after the trade, they HAD to do better than trading down twice for Keon Coleman. The Bills acted as if they would be “good enough.” I hold both of those guys to the standard at by those drafted around them. Kincaid is going to be 26 years old this season. He doesn’t have a lot of growth ahead. They traded up and drafted him to be one of the best pass catching TEs in football. He looks like a “guy” that can’t stretch the field as they hoped. Coleman was very raw coming out by all accounts. With a desperate need at the top of the depth chart, how could you take the most polarizing receiving prospect in the draft? You took a guy that’s never been able to separate and needed him to produce immediately. That’s a massive mistake. Can he improve? Sure. Should we expect him to ever get near Thomas or Worthy or McConkey? No. We should hope for it but we shouldn’t expect it based on what he put on tape. He’s the exact player that the scouting report said, “physical with the ball in the air, can run after the catch and never has 2 inches of space.” He becomes a guy that makes some plays but can’t ever be the focal point of an offense with that efficiency. I hold the Bills to a higher standard.

Lol, I wonder if they are just reading this message board. 🤣🤣

I think a few more Pro Bowl type of players used to hit the market. It was guys like Suh or Demarco Murray or Alston Jeffrey or Calais Campbell. The top FAs moved quite a bit if they weren’t tagged. I think you’re right though. It has become “get paid and figure it out.” Many more of the top guys seem to be staying with their teams. There was a time when players were rarely traded, especially for other players!! Remember how weird the Kelvin Sheppard / Jerry Hughes trade was?

Not at all. To your point, you can get starters but rarely stars. It’s the middle class that gets paid by other teams.

Agree. Who are the 3 best players that changed teams this year in FA?

I generally agree. The FA & draft discussion is some of the best discussion of the year. In season, is just like a talk show. We just talk matchups or whatever. It’s fine but not as interesting. Lol, once you get between FA & the draft though you get some of this. 🤣🤣

Lol, my goodness 🤦🏻‍♂️. If you believe the league, and other owners, would allow a player to blow up the entire, collectively bargained, financial structure, you’re wrong. Normally, I’d say, “we disagree” but we are past that point. There are certain unspoken rules that govern the league. The league MVP, playing the most expensive position, can’t take 33% of his market value, because it blows up the entire system. It makes the entire model crumble. Opposing owners, other players, agents, can’t let that happen. You’re hung up on the literal words and are not willing to look at the practical application. If he took $40M they would hate it but let it fly. At $20M they all have to raise their collective hands because it destroys the model that is working so successfully. This clearly isn’t going to resonate, so in the interest of the conversation getting back on track, I’ll let it die.

That’s just not how it works in the real world. The players have collectively bargained 51% of the revenues (or whatever the number is). If the league MVP, wants to take 1/3 of his market value, the league/players/agents/NFLPA/owners wouldn’t allow it to happen. It blows up the whole system. Every contract and position would need changing. Those entities, including the owners, would NEVER allow for that level of chaos. That’s the real world. I am purposely using an extreme example to make the case but that’s from experience. It’s the unwritten rules that would come into play if something as extreme as Josh taking $20M AAV was on the table.

It’s semantics at this point. The NFLPA would pull every single lever needed to stop it. Now can they, as the NFLPA, technically, say no, as themselves, no. Could they make sure that it doesn’t happen to stop the entire financial system from collapsing? Of course. That’s the point. It isn’t that literal. If you think that the league would allow Josh Allen to sign a new contract, making him the 22nd highest paid QB in football, I have a bridge to sell you.

Again, yes and no. If Allen was adamant he wanted $20M and no more, the NFLPA wouldn’t let it happen. It would crush the entire ecosystem. Every contract for every player, would be crushed. They’d have to redo everything to get to the 51%. They would step in to prevent chaos.

The players and agents wouldn’t let that happen. That’s the point. That’s the real world. If Allen took $40M AAV they would cringe but accept it. If he tried to take $20M, it couldn’t happen. It would ruin everything, for everyone moving forward. How could Trevor Lawrence or Kyler Murray negotiate their next deal with Allen making less than 1/2 of the market? The cap is like 51% of revenues so the money would have to be redeployed. That’s just not how it works. There’s an “unofficial range” that all players/agents act within. That’s true in all sports. No one player will be allowed, by his peers or union, to break the system. Lol, that’s what I expected when I heard the “negotiating in the media” comment. It became clear that you aren’t looking for a rational solution, you’re looking for an emotional one. That’s not how it works but feel how you feel. I don’t get emotional as to what someone else wants for a salary. It doesn’t impact me. I want the Bills to win and every single thought on here is through that lens. I don’t care if they negotiate publicly or insult Josh’s mom. That’s not important to me. What’s best for wins and losses is what I want. To each their own…