ctk232

Given their play all game to that point I was hoping we’d actually go from the shotgun to spread out the defense and give pass options to Josh before tucking to run if there. Liked the decision, hated the playcall. Our OL “couldn’t even block someone on Twitter” it was that bad.

Agree with a lot here already, but just to throw a curveball here, Emmanuel Sanders is shaping up to be the FA steal for this FO in all honesty.

^this, and almost in order. Depending on how the first round BPA falls until it’s our turn, in order of need: 1. IOL/C - OL has to be first, protect Josh and upgrading OL raises the floor of every other offensive position 2. DB - love Levi, and even if we can keep him at a comfortable price DB is still this high on need. Especially if we can get a 1/2nd round value starter on a cheap rookie contract for the next few years, can’t hurt our secondary or keep Tre fresh. Would lend to a possible rotation scheme in the secondary too to keep guys fresh. 3. S - love what I’m seeing from Johnson and Neal, but having another young guy here would be great. 4. TE - if Knox continues to perform, this falls lower down the board. But wouldn’t hurt to have two solid pass catching TE options should we, god forbid, lose a WR to injuries or what have you in the future.

1. Then what are you saying exactly? That because he isn't "living up to expectations" - whoever's they are - that he is....what? Worth keeping around/not worth keeping around? This is all in the context of his upcoming extension so are you saying he isn't doing enough to warrant an extension or simply just a "big" contract because that's an important distinction. If it's just about whether his play can improve, I'm not sure anyone here is saying that it can't - first and foremost from Tre himeslf. Like I said, if you compare him to what it took to get him versus his performance within the context of reality you can draw very different conclusions. 2. The Bills do use it. It's Taron Johnson, and sometimes Poyer being asked to fill in on run defense while Johnson covers to disguise pre-snap looks. Let's get that out the way. The idea that Milano and Edmunds don't have the same responsibilities ignores everything stated by players and coaches, but if you want to go that way here are the definitive numbers with consideration of injuries and an extra year for Milano: If you wanna see TFLs and Sacks from your LBs, then sure Milano is your guy. If you want your LBs making solo tackles, covering TEs and zones, etc. and letting your, to use your words "second most important position behind QB" aka DE/DL pass rushers making the TFLs and Sacks like they're supposed to and are paid to do then you'll like this defense and Edmunds performance. The other point I tried communicating to you is that It is possible that the play calls focus on giving more opportunity for Milano to make these splash plays while Edmunds has others, but that's not based on their position as much as it is unique physical abilities. Maybe this wasn't clear, but yes what they do on any given play is different because common sense, but the breadth of responsibilities each are asked to execute are the same (i.e. cover, run stuff, blitz, etc.). 3. Okay...insofar as comparing body types, sure? But my point is you can't make an argument based on that analogy as they play different positions in reality. Did Henry make a case for himself as an RB in the NFL? Absolutely. Can you use that to detract from what Edmunds has not/has yet to accomplish? No. It's by definition a logical fallacy. I do see what you are getting at here though, but this again falls under Edmunds "not meeting your expectations" which is rather irrelevant in the context of his own circumstances, development, projection/ceiling, and especially whether he's worth extending and for how long/how much $. It's a non-starter to use Henry as the benchmark for a LB. For what it's worth, I hear you on the run stuffing instincts - that has been his issue the first couple seasons. I would argue it's improved markedly, and especially in the first two games this season. I'll try and dig some highlights on the Steelers, but Edmunds did a phenomenal job handling the pre-snap shift/movements of Canada's offense and played very fast in shutting down Najee Harris. 4. It's not avoiding the point in the least, these are just your stated opinions. You call opinions that Edmunds can play better but is also playing well currently, bull####. Why? Because he doesn't make splash plays. Okay sure, that's one perspective but is still nothing more than opinion. We likely disagree on his ceiling versus where he is now, that much is obvious. But that's the job of the GM is to decide how much he is worth to keep around AND what is he contributing now and what that is worth. I argue he's doing more for this defense and team now than you are, and we both agree he can improve (disagreeing by how much apparently).

For sure. If this technicality is needed then yes, there absolutely is a "Mike"/"Will" call for each defensive snap to coordinate assignments. But what those assignments are and what each position is asked to do are practically the same/interchangeable, and certainly aren't traditional as you mention. This was in regard to my first post, responding to someone wanting a traditional "run stuffing" MLB in this defense

Not sure where to start here……… So you’re saying because he doesn’t make the big game changing plays (whatever that means) he isn’t worth extending much less having on the team? If that’s so then you have a case to make for cutting most every player on the team depending on what your definition of frequency of big plays is. For example, as equally “big” as the sack is on any given play, the 1T eating up a double team opening an inside gap makes it even possible to begin with is just as “big” - Tre does this repeatedly, as does Milano. The responsibilities of both LB positions in the base nickel defense are damn near identical the way McD wants them to be played. It’s a hybrid combination of physicality and speed, primarily to negate passing offenses in dropback zone coverage while playing fast in gaps in run defense. This isn’t research or opinion, it’s what McD has said about his own defense. As a result, neither are nor can be what everyone considers prototypical or “traditional” LBs. This is also why we have the hybrid nickel position, which requires a larger more physical DB to attack on runs and blitzes. Milano and Edmunds have the same responsibilities in the defense, but each have unique physical attributes that allow them to excel in different areas. Despite this, both are asked to drop in coverage, gap stuff, and blitz from multiple positions. Why are you comparing him to Derrick Henry? Attempted argument by analogy? Also are you saying the rest of the league’s MLB/ILB are all hard nosed run stuffers, which is the defining quality that makes them truly elite? Ever seen Devin White? Darius Leonard? Bobby Wagner? They drop in coverage with the best of them. Mirror-reflection of the RB, just what is that supposed to mean as a measure of what an LB is and should be in THIS defense. Not sure what the rest of the league has to do with how our defense is run, but sure… Lastly, can he play better? He sure thinks he can, and considering his age I’m not one to argue with it. What player on our team can’t play better? But your hilarious expectations of what he should be because of what it took to get him are woefully inconsistent with the reality of his strong performance, and marked improvement each year.

I just…how are these hot takes still going on? Do you not watch or understand our defense? I’ll try and keep this short as I’ve (and many others) have posted this more times than should be needed. 1. McD runs a base nickel defense which, by literal definition, does not have a “traditional” MLB, nor does it even have an MLB position. 2. The roles as assigned are damn near identical between Milano and Edmunds in the defensive scheme. This is intentional as it primarily is used to address the pass heavy league we find ourselves in. 3. It does so without sacrificing too much in run defense by asking the front four (especially 1T and 3T IDLs) to gap manage, while Edmunds and Milano are free to plug in addition to our hybrid nickel DB. Anyone wishing to disagree with me here hasn’t listened to the players, much less Lorenzo Alexander literally say as much. To use someone like Klein in Edmunds role would require a fundamental shift in scheme, as it did last year when Milano went down and Klein had to step in for an extended period. This is due to the completely different physical abilities and attributes of Edmunds, and just how unique of a player profile is required to play this position in McD’s defense. It’s maddening to hear these takes when what you’re asking for is nothing short of an entirely different defense, philosophy and all. For the defense we do run, and Edmunds has been asked to QB for the past four seasons, he has done a phenomenal job. Not without error or injury affected play, but phenomenal nonetheless. So much so he’s made multiple pro bowls, and lest we forget the fact that he played most of the past two seasons less than 100% with his shoulder (a shoulder…as an LB). Put simply, the success of our defense lies as much with him as does the offense with Josh. I say maddening, but it’s also truly hilarious to see everyone here pile on the Edmunds hate with little to no statistical evidence, reference to performance vs assignment execution, or the pretty obvious fact that we’ve had a top ten D for almost four seasons now. The only supported claim I’ve seen is he has missed gap assignments on run plays, but this is a very low probability event at best when compared to overall defensive snaps and run plays faced. Also, isn’t our run D something like 2nd in the league after the first two weeks? Who knows…guess we’ll be having this conversation again by week 10 based on how frequently these threads pop up.

Credit to that poster, as that is what resonates most with me after seeing Allen’s play the past two weeks. First, what we know about Allen’s mentality is that he isn’t one to rest on his laurels after being handed the contract, media appellations, and general expectations - it’s that he will do anything to meet all of them. In line with the poster’s comparison with 2019 Josh, this would seem to dictate his performance this season thus far in trying to do too much in proving these expectations. Last year his composure made all the difference, and with this season so far it seems like he’s returned to the do it all mentality. The assurance here being it’s all totally correctable and he will address it as the season progresses. Second, to contribute something to this thread - the idea of 2019 Josh returning, the one constantly throwing on his back foot or off-balanced, was also one who looked like he didn’t trust his OL in front of him. Last year we saw a Brady-esque statue form from Allen, and his accuracy improved tremendously. I need to dig into the OL metrics, but an armchair’s perspective has me seeing Allen distrusting his OL like that of 2019 - and it’s not entirely unwarranted. Dawkins, Feliciano, and Williams have all regressed, and Ingram and Watt made a considerable impression in week one. I hope this changes too as we go forward, but right now it’s my biggest concern as OL play impacts how everyone else executes and performs. I guess we’ll see against a stout WFT front this week.

Yep, another season with just above average Wallace. I’ve always liked the guy, and an incredible UDFA story, but he hasn’t ever once given reason why his spot cannot be improved upon. A lot of our secondary issues were clouded by the DL conversation in the off-season and somehow needing to drastically improve a pass rush that ranked 5th in pressure rate last season… Holding them to 16 points is a great showing, but that offense wasn’t close to being the best we’ll see this season either. Not much to be done about it at this point, but I’m just waiting for our first round DB/S pick next year given how much room there is to improve here. Dane is also a great promising depth guy, and both are worth keeping on the roster, but DB2 has room to be improved dramatically.

The entire Offensive Line is offensively atrocious today frankly

^This. Seems like Daboll wants to keep Diggs/Sanders/Davis/Beasley and McKenzie/Kumerow on the field as often as possible, and given our WR depth chart it’s hard to see why he wouldn’t. No reason to put two mediocre TEs on the field when that’s your receiving stable. We’re more than likely rolling with almost all 1TE sets. This is where Sweeney making the roster as a primary blocking TE makes sense over the pass catching Hollister as we’ll roll 2TE sets with the objective of blocking. The argument is about how much we want to telegraph those plays (a la Lee Smith coming on the field telegraphing runs). This to say, given this year’s depth at WR and separately at DE, Hollister became expendable when compared with his roster comp in Knox, to the FO.

Don’t forget Gentry, Powell, and Williams. But even so, how is it uphill? PS for Stevenson and likely Hodgins (pending eligibility). Kumerow into that 6th and rest are cut. Outside your top 5 there the argument would be not only is Kumerow’s receiving skill comparable with Stevenson and Hodgins, he adds size over both. At times he plays like a versatile, coordinated TE in how he runs routes and competes for catches. Furthermore, what will likely be more of the deciding factor in Kumerow making the roster over others is his ability to play ST at a competitive level in addition to his receiving ability. He outplayed Taiwan Jones for the stretch he was out at gunner last year, even when Jones was cleared to return. All this to say I wouldn’t be surprised in the least to see Kumerow at the 6th spot due to his greater utility as an actual roster player versus just a position player. Depending on how we line up at KR/PR it sounds like McKenzie might be the guy given Powell’s performance in camp thus far, and Stevenson might be called up from PS if needed, but otherwise haven’t heard/seen much to indicate otherwise.

Couldn't agree more with this take. I do think the Bills view at least Dawkins/Williams as starter locks, and are high enough on Spencer Brown to likely have him on the 53 as a rookie. To me, Bates makes the 53 for two reasons here - as you keenly point out - one is his utility OL play and proficiency, and a very close two is his ability to fill in as a Center specifically. Morse has been a question mark regarding his long term capability beyond this next season, and we saw Feliciano's ability to fill in here as well from last season. What I would like to see from the staff is if/when Morse goes down again, what would a Bates (C)/Feliciano (RG) look like instead of a Feliciano (C)/Boettger (RG, assuming Ford is healthy). Feliciano, while serviceable at Center, did leave a gap in the Guard position last year that affected our run game and overall OL production (beyond just the transition to zone blocking versus power man blocking concepts in the run game). I like Boettger's story as much as the next guy, but I can't buy any argument regarding his talent/skills as irreplaceable, or better than the potential utility of keeping Feliciano at LG and having Bates fill in at C. The other possibilities here being Lamp and Anderson coming in and having a phenomenal camp, pushing out either/both of Boettger and Bates - though history has shown the staff to typically favor going with the established hand. As for Doyle I could see IR as well, or even PS depending on his camp and how well they like him over others. But I would be surprised to see him make the roster out of camp. Assuming we do keep 9: Dawkins/Ford (Boettger, Lamp)/Morse/Feliciano/Williams (Brown, Bates) - I think Anderson and Doyle see the IR/PS, and Lamp's spot may be taken by Douglas or Anderson instead, but I'd say Lamp if I had to choose.

Unfortunately this might be how he responds to being asked to primarily run in a power-zone scheme last year, versus a power-man blocking scheme where he thrived in his first year. Just hope they've accommodated for that much in terms of expected playcalling.

Tbf Epenesa was a 2nd round pick - but yes our first actual pick in the draft. Either way this is where I’m at as well, if not slightly more optimistic. I think we messed with too much in having AJ drop as much weight as he did. I’m curious to see whether they keep him at that weight and work more on the speed game this year, or let him put some weight back on to get back to his power roots. Either way I have more optimism about him and Oliver continuing to make strides. Hell, if we’re lucky enough that all three develop to expectation that’s an outstanding DL core group of similar age to anchor a defense on for years. All remains to be seen but can’t say I’m not excited. If we didn’t go DB here I was hoping it’d be DL/Pass Rusher. I wouldn’t have minded ASJ or Ojulari even, but glad to see us go after an incredible upside gamble with number 30.

For sure - I omitted this in the first reply, but Barmore would play 1T in my mind if drafted as one of those three positions of need. He has unnatural speed for his size that could easily fit either 1 or 3T imo, but be fine in securing the 1T. Epenesa could go either way this year at DE and it'll be fun to watch - I think he dropped a bit too much weight and by default changed the entire basis of his play style.

Barmore would play 1T - he has unnatural speed for his size that could easily fit either 1 or 3T imo. Butler played 1T snaps as well last year fwiw - for one reason or another - particularly in the heavy packages with both Oliver and Zimmer, and 1T/3T hybrid with Phillips at times. I see him continuing that this year depending on how Zimmer fairs in camp, but right now it's Oliver's job to lose at 3T. Our list at 1T is Star, Phillips, Butler, and maybe Bryant now? Seems like a camp depth FA signing but not sure where he played most last year and seems to fit the 1T metrics. All I'm saying is Beane has noted he isn't content with the DL roster, and what happened last year was both an attempt to improve and plan for the worst during a COVID season. To date, when Beane has attempted to improve a position on the roster, he typically does so by adding or pairing existing veteran talent where he can with young draft picks in the same year (Addison & Epenesa, Gore & Singletary, Diggs/Smoke & Davis, Kyle & H Phillips, etc.). While we didn't bring in any veteran 1T guys, you could argue the current list has Star to some degree filling that veteran role, but what we haven't done is invest young draft talent into the position yet. Barmore would be great at 30 to accomplish this, but plenty of directions we could go here depending on how the day one board falls.

I know it’s an unpopular opinion given the Dareus PTSD this board has when it comes to first round DLs from Bama, but I would LOVE Barmore at 30. Should Oliver continue taking next steps, and Barmore transition to the next level, this could be a terrifying interior to face, and strong young talent to build from moving forward. Barmore looks to have what we had in JPhillips but with the added consistent dominance/penetration and run stuffing performance - match that with Oliver’s snap speed and power from the 3T and I can see a few OLs yelling at each other on the sidelines in fits. I know there are Harris rumors here at 30, and a DB/OL wouldn’t be surprising at all either (or undesired even), but Barmore would be a meaningful investment to bring in high potential youth to the 1T position. Should all go well, Johnson or another DE/Barmore/Oliver/Epenesa could be something that anchors this defense week in and week out.

Wasn't his best year, but Feliciano was a large part of the exceptional time to throw for Josh this year - speaking strictly on his assignments in pass pro and handling line communications/stunts. That said, agreed DWill should be the priority OL signing this offseason, bar none. As much as Feliciano helped keep our interior together, DWill was a man alone on the right island holding court with every DE this past season. Our interior is where we were weakest, particularly in the run game with Morse and Ike. Love both, but could see investment there being most prudent should we be able to retain both Feliciano and DWill. Wouldn't hate seeing us use #30 on OG/C, and hope Ford can return healthy. Despite the general consensus, I think Ford can excel next to either of Dawkins or DWill, and allow him to let loose more on run blocks. If we can draft and/or FA more interior talent, that would be my ideal offseason in all honesty. Won't need to do much to the RB corps with a line upgrade like that.

^this. Plenty to examine in the Bucs offensive approach, particularly when it comes to time to throw negating the Chiefs pass rush...but the tip of the cap goes to keeping one of the most complete offenses in the NFL to three FGs all game. That’s the perfect player execution and designed scheme approach - we had neither of that in the AFCCG from the defense.

Tbf the Chiefs arguably have one of the most complete offenses in the league and it did nothing against a stout defense and, more importantly, an incredibly well-schemed gameplan and playcall. The Bucs were the more complete team, would likely be the better thread here. Their offense came out and performed, no doubt - perfectly balanced attack to get at the Chiefs weaknesses on the ground and through the air with screens and TE heavy use/production. Frankly, what the Bucs left out there was not as complete an offense in terms of tangible production. It was simply what was needed to beat the KC defense. But overall, it was the Bucs defense that made the difference in the game throughout, and against one of the most complete offenses out there. All this to say, sure, you could argue upgrades needed at TE and in OL run blocking, possibly RB, but KC was the more complete team on the field and in a schemed gameplan approach in the AFCCG. We attacked their strengths on offense, and our defense was exposed. It’s hard to make these hyper-focused comparisons and translate them to another team’s context, especially within the sample of a single game. Plenty to improve on the Bills side, but these are still hard arguments to make.

I love these narratives about moving players around - Oliver to DE, Edmunds to DE or OLB - without any consideration of defensive scheme, natural position, or accurate judgment on performance. Fwiw, Oliver graded out exceptionally for 3T and average or above at 1T despite it not being his natural position. I do believe we need to let him settle into a 3T only role and avoid the hybrid approach with him, but any idea of him transitioning to DE would remove his ability and results we see now. Losing Star and relying on the revolving door of Butler/Phillips made us weaker at 1T this year, and forced us to try QJeff and Oliver there more than we should have, two guys who should be nowhere near the 1T role. Edmunds moving to another position has been beaten more than any narrative, and completely ignores our LB assignments and position roles in McD’s defense. Trying him at DE, when most everyone’s biggest complaint is his inability to shed blocks, would be even more maddening for those folks. Let him develop and let’s see where we are with Milano this offseason - there’s little to no difference between their positions in this scheme.

I'm sorry, but if people are going to keep beating this tired horse, could you please explain what exactly is the difference in their positions within McD's defensive scheme? It's been repeatedly stated by the coaches, players (i.e. Lorenzo Alexander, Milano, Tre, etc.) that there's absolutely little to no difference between their positions, assignments, coverages, etc. beyond the fact that Edmunds is captaining the playcalls from Frazier. By this logic, we would switch that responsibility to Klein and have no marked difference between them in positional assignment? Only asking because that's all that would accomplish and would be exceptionally suspect. Agreed - I see a fair offer in attempt to keep a solid player in the same system, but would rather see the dollars go to maintaining the OL. Particularly Williams and Feliciano in that order. Milano's position would be easier to target replacement at 30 or in the second round than OL would, and like you say contribute immediately. I wonder now with the likelihood of a non-covid season in 2021/22 that there will be cap space freed with DL and OL depth being released, which may help keep Milano. But remains to be seen. Worth noting the obvious as well, that Milano is exceptional in coverage for his position which is the only piece I'm skeptical of replacing. However that trait will decline with age and injury, especially against TEs like Kelce.

Would love to see OL picks, always. If DWill doesn’t come back RT will be a huge need, and arguably Center would be more of a need than OG unless they eventually plan to slide Mongo to the anchor. Though I’m still not sure who would be had there for the value comparable to other BPAs just yet. I wouldn’t be shocked to see us go defense here, even DB, depending on who is there at 30. KC exploited a lot of weaknesses in our defense, and frankly the entire unit regressed from prior years. Lots of reasons and variables going into that, but would hardly be surprised to see DB/LB (pending Milano’s re-signing)/or DL here in that order of preference.

This is what I mean by targeted investment - rather than commit cap, target where we need to spend on the DL. I think what we saw this season was a combination of one, preparing depth for covid complications and two, compensating for the rotation depth. Plenty of fat can be trimmed from the DL going into next season and I suspect they will. But there’s a difference between investing wholesale and targeted investment. As for the run scheme, it feeds into the outcome. I agree, could be attributed to straight performance, however there were numerous times where either Morse or even Mongo were missing assignments, seemingly confused by lack of communication on twists/stunts and simply just missing blocks. To me, most of what I saw this season was lack of scheme and player execution. I can’t say whether that falls on Morse for assignments, Allen for shifting assignments, coaching, or a combination of the above - but I was hardly impressed by the scheme and execution, especially when it mattered tonight. Pass pro was exceptional this season so it gives an interesting issue heading into next season as you don’t exactly want to lose that. We’re a passing offense. But more can be done from a system level to address the failing run game performance beyond simply dumping money into an RB contract. I’d rather see us shore up the ends of the OL with Williams, and double down on drafting a new C and OG. Trim the fat along the DL and maybe invest in another FA or draft pick there. I think they find an RB in FA like Carson, but until the run game is addressed from the top down I don’t think we see much of a change.