OldTimer1960

True enough, but by being out there in the public eye with all sorts of PR appearances and calling attention to himself, he now has to suffer the results of a horrendous performance.

Stevie Johnson was terrible today. He personally lost the game by dropping a perfect pass that would have ended the game in OT. He also had 4 other drops, including one that went through his hands that Polamalu intercepted to end a Bills scoring threat. We might have witnessed the end of the miraculous run that Stevie had from nobody to somebody. I wonder if he has the mental toughness to recover from this disasterous game.

I love the effort, toughness and resiliency of this team. HOWEVER, they still have a SIGNIFICANT talent gap as compared to playoff-level teams. It is important and significant that they seem to have changed the player culture this year. In the offseason, they still have more holes to fill than can be reasonably expected, but they could be a .500 team next year with the right pieces added. I think that Troup and Carrington will be functional, solid additions to the D next year. I think the defensive backfield is already quite good. Big improvement on defense hinges on really improving the LB corp. They need at least 1 legitimate feared pass rusher at 1 OLB spot. The other OLB position needs an upgrade over Kelsay in terms of overall game. At ILB, it would be nice, though not imperative to have an upgrade over Andra Davis next to Poz. If they can accomplish those things, the D can be fair-to-midland. I'd love to believe in Fitzpatrick and I haven't completely formed my opinion yet, but he still looks like a top backup/low-end starting QB to me. Yes, he plays with heart, effort, leadership and intelligence, but he is not a very accurate passer and throws too many picks at very inopportune times. That being said, the players seem to really love playing with him and he is young enough to possibly continue developing into a good starting QB (still, hard to think he'll ever be more than the worst starting QB in the division with Brady and Sanchez likely always being well above him). The team NEEDS at least a decent TE. I wanted to believe in Shawn Nelson - and maybe you can write off his lack of contribution this year to injury/suspension, but he does not look like the answer, so far. Other teams boast TEs that make 4-5 catches a game and keep drives alive with important catches. Look at Dustin Keller in NY and Hernandez and Gronkowski in NE - imagine how much more effective Fitzpatrick could be with a dangerous weapon like those guys to go with Evans and Johnson. A functional RT is a must. All of these undrafted guys and rejects from other teams are not going to cut it at RT if this team hopes to be a playoff contender. If they can upgrade half or more of the above positions in the offseason, then they can show significant improvement next year.

Here I am and happily they won the game thanks to them trying and also thanks to an EPIC collapse by the Bengals. I don't know where you come off thinking that I am dead wrong, though. Yeah, the Bengals completely folded and the Bills were game enough to take advantage of that. Great and I am happy that they did. I am happy that they try hard and compete. I am happy that their coach has put some toughness into them. BUT, don't think that this is somehow a great team. All the flaws that were there going 0-8 are still there. Some are improving with experience (the OL, Troup and Carrington are at least playing on the DL now, Steve Johnson), but their run defense is still truly abysmal. Lindell's out of bounds kick and missed 30 yd FG attempt would have cost them the game against even a decent opponent. And, I love Fitzpatrick's story and heart, but I still am not sold on him being the answer at QB for the long-term. He is a gritty, smart, hard-working QB, but he can be wildly inaccurate. There have been a LOT of passes this year that defenders flat-out dropped that should have been INTs. Heck, he got very lucky in this game that an INT was called back due to a roughing the passer penalty. That could have ended the game right there as Cinci's lead could have been insurmountable. OK, flog me for venting my frustration, but don't come off like some smug know-it-alls that you guys all had this figured out and knew that they were going to win this game.

It takes real effort to F-up a franchise this bad. There should not be ANYONE left in the scouting department after this season. This team is so void of talent it is ridiculous. The only two 1st round picks that are good at all in the last many years are Lee Evans and Eric Wood. For those thinking that they should "build around Fitz", I think that he is showing why he is a tough overachieving career-backup. Even formerly good K Rian Lindell is now awful. How on earth do you kick the ball out of bounds with 1:17 left? That error gave Cincinatti 3 points and if the Bengals were worth a crap, they'd have scored 7. Way to just hand momentum right back to Cinci after a late score gave the Bills just a little hope. I've been a fan since the late 60s and while I admire the team's effort, they are just truly awful and might be the worst team I have seen in those 40 some years. Whew, I needed to vent that. I'll try to get back to being calm and rational now.

I absolutely agree. I don't think that the DL is bad, but the LB crew - especially the OLBs are all backup-caliber players. In the 3-4, the majority of the pass rush is coming from the OLBs and the Bills' weakness there is why they don't get pressure on the QB. (Yeah, I know that Bruce Smith had a LOT of sacks as a 3-4 DE, but he was a very very special player). Nothing against Torbor and Kelsay. I admire them for their effort, but they are not the dynamic pass-rushing athletes that the Bills need at OLB.

I agree, it is hard to blame the DC when they are trying to play a 3-4 defense with no NT and only 1 starting-caliber NFL LB. Oh, I forgot to mention that they have a backup DT trying to be a starting DE (Spencer Johnson).

I'll withold judgement on this front office and coaching staff for now, because they were presented with a completely empty cupboard. I WISH that this year's draft choices were contributing something, especially given how utterly bad this team is. However, a rookie is a rookie and it is too soon to give up on them. The FA signings for this year were weak, but probably in line with the team's ability to pay given that they are one of the lowest revenue teams in the league. Don't for a minute think that the Bills are playing on an even playing field. When other teams rake in 10, 20 or 50 Million $ more, it is extremely difficult to compete with them.

I agree that Kelsay is over-paid, but if they are going to over-pay anyone, I'd rather it be a real tough try-hard guy like Kelsay than some fat talented, but lazy turd like Peters. Kelsay is FAR from the biggest problem on this team and I think they want to show that they reward those kind of players. HOWEVER, it is an indictment of the talent level of this team when he could be remotely considered one of their better players.

This team couldn't win the WAC, much less the SEC. Their best hope for a win is to beat Saskatchewan when they have them at home. I've been watching the Bills since 1970 and this may be the WORST team that they have ever had. I'll grant that they have had a murderous first 4 games, but they haven't even been remotely competitive in 3 of the 4. Realistically, this team is at least the following away from being decent: 1. A good QB 2. OLT, ORT 3. NT 4. 2 OLBs, 1 ILB 5. a starting-calibre #2 WR 6. an NFL calibre TE (they don't have a single TE that could make another roster, much less start). What a sad sad state this team is in. Worse, they are getting absolutely NO contributions from this year's rookies. Spiller might be able to help, but they refuse to use him for anything besides kick returns and (or all things) pass blocking on 3rd downs - and he's horrible at that. Troup has shown absolutely nothing. With as truly horrendous as the run D is, you'd think that if Troup had ANY talent, he'd be on the field. Gack. Carrington also hasn't shown anything. It's extremely disappointing that he can't even get on the field ahead of Spencer Johnson. Johnson is nothing but maybe an adequate backup and Carrington can't carve out 10 snaps on D? Moats looked like he *might* be just about to maybe start getting some snaps, but he got hurt and it didn't look good. When a team is as bad as this one is, especially on D, it is SHOCKING that their rookies can't get playing time.

They'd be lucky to get a single 3rd for Evans. He isn't a #1 WR in the NFL. He is an adequate deep threat in an offense that has other weapons, but he isn't really in the top 30 WRs in the NFL. Guys like him are not a dime-a-dozen, but aren't that much more expensive.

Will there be a thread calling for the Bills to sign every player cut over the next few weeks? I understand that the Bills are in a position where their roster isn't very good, but signing a bunch of cast-offs from other teams isn't going to improve this team very much.

I love the point that one poster made about how odd it is that there are a lot of people down on Maybin even though he shows effort and yet there are many Edwards supporters even though he doesn't show (outwardly) any passion at all. I have posted my concerns and frustrations with Maybin, but I do try to be balanced and point out that I've never read one thing that suggested that he isn't trying. He clearly has trained his body as he doesn't have an ounce of fat and he has added muscle. He also seems to hustle most/all of the time. I think many people's frustration is due to how high he was drafted and the return on investment so far. I think he'd be pretty popular if he had been some lower round draft choice showing his athleticsm and would be considered a "diamond in the rough" - which might still be true.

Thank you for the perspective. Some folks here think every top-10 pick is an immediate star for every other team, but that the dumb Bills always F it up. Reality is that half the top 10 picks might be very good, one or two great and half will struggle. I don't think Tyson Jackson, Andre Smith and Darrius Heyward-Bey are any further along than Maybin - not saying that's great, but it does mean it isn't unique. Also, IMHO, Maybin is no longer than undersized. He does still need to gain some strenght, but it is his pass rush moves and leverage that I think need to be improved more. Few LBs are going to be able to bull-rush an OT. Maybin's first half consisted of him always trying to beat the OT wide upfield. If you have no counter move, most competent OTs can handle that no matter how fast the LB is. Maybin just started some counter moves in the 2nd half, spin was the first. Now, why that is such a mystery to an as good an athlete as Maybin appears to be is beyond me. But I haven't written him completely off. He has talent and seems to work, so there may be hope.

Of the bunch, I see McKelvin as the least-bust-like. He is very talented, missed most of last year due to injury and is behind a very good veteran in Florence. Maybin concerns me more in that he is behind a career backup, but he is only 21 and would only be going into his Sr year in college now. I do count McCargo as a bust late in round one, but it is hard to fault them for taking him. He was pretty highly thought of coming out. It isn't like he didn't have supporters and most likely would have gone in the next 10 picks if the Bills hadn't taken him. Look at recent can't-miss prospects like DTs Ryan Sims, Kentwan Balmer and Phillip Merling for evidence that 1st round pick doesn't necessarily equal good player.

While I am concerned that Maybin hasn't beaten out the journeyman Torbor, I do think it is too early to call him a bust. He is clearly a very talented athlete and he is barely 21, so he will likely fill out more thout at his listed 245-250lbs, he isn't exactly small. He does have a smaller lower body "power pack". I don't know that McKelvin running behind Florence is a big sign that McKelvin is a bust. Florence was a highly sought after player in FA a few years ago and got a big contract (I think from Alt). He wasn't able to play up to his contract after his FA cash-in, but he played well for the Bills last year and by all reports has carried that over. It isn't like McKelvin is behind a midling career backup like Maybin is to Torbor. As long as we are at it, let's be clear that a large percentage of first round picks don't pan out as real difference makers. Sure, many of the real true "impact" players come from the first round, but truthfully if a team gets a solid starter from a #1 pick - even in the top 10 of a draft, that team did pretty well. For example, I wish that Donte Whitner were another Ed Reed or Troy Polomolu, but he looks like he is going to be a good starter and leader, so that is still pretty good.

It is very disappointing that this is even an issue. From watching practice, it is very clear that Maybin has far better athletic ability, but yet he can't get past a midling journeyman on the depth chart. I hope that Maybin comes on and becomes the player his athletic ability would allow him to be, but this is not a good sign.

I second this post. The reality is that no team is going to give up even a half-decent starting LT for Marshawn Lynch. Lynch's performance last year was not good and add in his off-field problems, this once-suspended player isn't worth much in trade.

I don't understand the strong dislike, even hate, towards any of these players. I understand there being disappointment that some of the players drafted highly haven't lived up to their draft status - every team has that. Many of the guys on the initial list, though, are real try-hard guys who work very hard to maximize their abilities. In that list I include: Donte Whitner Chris Kelsay Keith Ellison Ryan Fitzpatrick Ashton Youboty We can be disappointed that the above guys maybe don't have the impact that we want, but I am very confident that they give their best. I think that is something to cheer for, not to hate them for. Also from the initial list, I believe that James Hardy is working very hard after being injured. Every interview I have seen with him seems to indicate that he has the right attitude to maximize his talent. If he doesn't make it, maybe it is because he just doesn't have the ability at 6'5" to be shifty enough to get away from NFL level CBs. Aaron Maybin certainly appears to be in great shape. I can't speak to his effort, but the times I've been to camp he seems to be working hard and obviously works hard in the gym. Trent Edwards is a guy who doesn't come across as well in interviews as maybe we'd like, but I do think he is trying hard. I'll admit that I don't think it is highly likely that he'll succeed, but I respect the effort. About the only guy on the list who appears to be failing due to lack of effort is McCargo and I can't say that for sure. He just doesn't look like he is in the kind of shape that he needs to be in. I think he is very quick for a guy his size and he occasionally can knife into the backfield to make a play, but not often enough. At any rate, my opinion is that (most of) these guys should be cheered for their effort. These are the kinds of guys we should want to cheer. Maybe any lack of production is really because they don't have enough natural ability to excell on the NFL level. That isn't something to hate someone for.

He might have been motivated by the fact that Miami traded him away. While I agree that isn't a very sportsman-like thing to say, I am POSITIVE that there is a LOT worse than that said every week in every game. I also don't blame him for being gloating a bit at the team that dumped him.

I too have been concerned that Maybin's lack of production and that right now he is behind so-so Torbor are signs that he is a bust, but I watched him at last night's practice and I can definitely say that the guy is a true thoroughbred as an athlete. He just moves so much more smoothly than any of the other LBs there and his speed is evident. He is clearly in great shape, too, so there should be little concern about his work ethic. Now, will that translate to production? I don't know, but the tools are definitely there.

It would be a shame to have to release Schobel and then watch him go play for another team. If the issue is that his salary is too high to trade, but that he wants to play elsewhere, then perhaps he should workout a reduced salary contract w Buffalo which will allow them to trade him. I can't imagine it is a salary cap issue for the Bills as I think they are way under the "real" cap. They need to try to leverage something out of this, even if it is only a 4th or 5th round choice in next year's draft. They treated Schobel very well - paying him above what a good, but not great player is worth. He should be willing to work with them to facilitate a trade where they can both get what they want.

OK, I got Reggie Torbor's first name wrong. It doesn't make the point any less relevant - Torbor is a midling back-up caliber guy who has kicked around the league and right now he's running ahead of the 10th overall pick in last year's draft - the guy who was so good that he didn't have to attend training camp. Now, I DO understand that Mabyin is still very young, he'd only be going into his Senior year this Fall, but he just has shown so little. I *hope* that he comes along, but I admit I am losing patience with him. I was a tad harsh on McKelvin as he missed most of last year, but #1 picks need to be starters or they are disappointments. If McKelvin plays nickel and kick returner this year, then he will maybe not be a bust, but it would certainly be a disappointment for as high as he was picked - kind of like Reggie Bush, part-time contributor on offense and kick returner. I think if Whitner were a solid starter, then there would be no competition from Bryan Scott or George Wilson - neither of whom are solid-starter caliber. Regarding Lynch, if the 11th overall pick a few years is running #3 on your RB depth chart, that is a problem. I too, liked his effort a couple of years ago, but he was awful last year coming back over-weight after his suspension. Heck, what exactly did he have to do for those 4 weeks except workout. I'm 50 y.o and I work all day, but I find time to workout daily. Now, I know that the level of workout and NFL player needs to do is far above what I do, but the point is he had all day and he surely could have found a couple of hours a day to stay in shape. Again, I very much hope that some or all of these guys get it together and become productive starters. I am not rooting against them, but the fact that 5 recent #1 draft picks are locked in battles to hopefully crack the starting lineup (actually, McCargo is in a battle to even make the team) is not a good situation to be in.

I am the first to acknowledge that it isn't reasonable to expect every first round draft choice to blossom into a star player. It isn't just the Bills, every team has misses early. However, the Bills have had several big misses in the recent past that help explain why the team is re-building continuously. I know that it is early in camp and we can hope that the following guys start to live up to their draft status, but for most of them, they've been around long enough that I expect we've seen their best. I know that I could go back further, but we don't need to: 1. John McCargo - taken late in round 1 has shown an occasional flash of quickness to knife into the backfield, but he' played very little and is in danger of not making the team at all this year. 2. Donte Whitner - 8th overall pick should be at least a good starter, if not an impact player. Whitner is struggling to even be a starter on a weak defense. He hasn't been as bad as some other players chosen in the same neighborhood (Jason Allen, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart), but they need more from him than to be "competing" to be the starter with the likes of Bryan Scott and ex-WR George Wilson. 3. Marshawn Lynch - there were red-flags on this guy's character coming into the draft, but the Bills' ignored them and he's been in trouble more than he's be productive. He has some talent, but does he want to play enough? Likely, 3rd back in the rotation - not good enough for as high as he was picked. In fairness to the Bills, there were a lot of flops in that first round, but super-star CB Darrelle Revis was selected 2 picks after Lynch. 4. Leodis McKelvin - I think he is the most likely of this group to improve his production, but the Bills need more out of a high number 1 pick than to be a nickel back. They could have had a great LT, if they had chosen Ryan Clady - ouch! 5. Aaron Maybin - Maybin has shown nothing so far and now he is running with the 2nd team defense even though a job is wide open with the loss of Schobel and he's behind Chris Kelsay and Jeff(?) freaking Torbor?