Alphadawg7

Gotcha and all good. And don't mistake me either, I was pounding the drum hard all off season to draft Donte Thornton, who not only had elite size and speed that is more than rare, but was the kind of story and character that screams Buffalo. He went one pick before us though to the Raiders even though we traded up in the 4th. But honestly, this was not a good draft to be forcing the issue at WR. And quite honestly, we are very young as it is at WR with young talent in Shakir (who I don't think has peaked yet), Keon, Samuel, Palmer, and Kincaid (whose job is to catch passes). So it's not like we are devoid of young talent either and Moore is still just 25 as well with as much potential or more than anyone we could have taken day 3, especially this season. I just think Beane staying true to his board and taking the highest graded prospect rather than reaching for a lesser graded WR in a weak WR class was the correct approach. Especially given the state of our offense and defense respectively. And its fair to have differing opinions, and I respect that, and no issue with anything you have said really. But the meltdown by others, over exaggeration of the gravity of the situation, etc is not only way over the top, but its being beaten to death the same posters and dragged all over this board to insufferable lengths.

No disrespect, I am not sure a reasonable argument can be made to support us not being a top offense in 2024, not to mention the people who don't see the offense as a top offense last year are heavily in the minority, both on this board and across media, the NFL, etc. Again, not sure a reasonable argument can be made to support this either. We are the highest scoring team over the past 5 years, being a top tier offense in 2024 was not some sort of outlier that is unreasonable to expect to continue. We did add more talent and are better on paper heading into the season than we were when we last walked off the field against KC. No one would object to adding another WR, everyone loves adding talent to this team...but man is this topic getting beaten to death and grossly exaggerated. When we last saw this offense on the field for its last series, we had guys open and wide open on every down. And what I find more interesting is this notion that we are doomed because we didn't draft a project WR in the mid rounds of a bad WR draft whose odds of contributing more to this team in 2025 are significantly lower than what Moore can potentially do for this team. Meanwhile, our defense was a massive liability...not just a small liability, but a significant anchor on this teams efforts to move forward both last year and every playoff exit. Our offense did enough for us to win all our playoff games...our defense did enough to lose us both the Ravens game and Chiefs game until the Ravens bailed us out with self inflicted mistakes. Nit picking about our offense is like nitpicking between a Ferrari and a Lambo...meanwhile our defense has been a used Toyota Camry.

I don't know we ever had a defense though where people felt it was a "top defense". We also can't live in the past and also not live in this notion that Josh can still keep doing more. That was a different defense in Fraziers gross bend but don't break soft defense and we were missing our best player on defense that year in Tre. Thats like saying well Elam didn't work out so we should never draft a CB again in the first round. It has no relevancy on today...there are not even many players on this defense from that 2021 team. We were the 16th greatest offense in NFL history this year despite the offense coasting whole quarters and halves in our NFL record number of blow out wins and Josh sitting week 17. Asking the offense to be even better is a ridiculous expectation when meanwhile our defense was bottom of the league in first downs allowed and 3rd down conversions. What is more achievable ask and more realistic to see a noticeable improvement? Also...the top 10 offenses of all time only had 3 teams win a SB, none of the top 4 either. In fact, the top 2 (2007 Pats and 2013 Broncos) got shut down in the Super Bowl and lost to conservative offenses with top tier defenses..numbers 3 and 4 didn't even reach a SB. So more offense has not been the answer historically either.

Facts: Highest scoring team in the AFC in both the regular season and post season...and 16th greatest offense in NFL history. Facts: The offense has to try and be perfect and score 35+ points per playoff game because the defense is giving up 35 PPG to the Chiefs in the postseason. A team that lost the next game 3 times after eliminating us where they avg 17 points per game (less than half they score on us). Facts: We had guys open and wide open multiple times on our last series, the personnel at WR was not at all why we failed on our last series. Batted passes at he LOS, missed throws, and cheating the protection to the wrong side all during those 4 plays is why our wide open receivers and TE's did not receive the ball. It was not because guys were not open. Facts: Bills Defense was amongst the worst in the NFL both in 3rd down conversions and 1st downs allowed and was highly dependent on turnovers, an unsustainable way to play defense, especially against the better QB's in the post season. Its mind blowing how people keep clamoring for "help" for Josh Allen and completely whiffing on the very obvious way to give Allen the most help is to give him a defense that can just get off the field once or twice more a game so the offense isn't being asked to be perfect at all times.

What is mind blowing to me is that they cut him after they drafted Mike Green lol.

Don’t be surprised to see Groot, Jackson, and Deone on the field together in certain passing situations too with all those long arms that can disrupt passing lanes, alter throws, and deflect passes too. Honestly I thought that Jackson might be who they were moving up for too. Wasn’t sure, but thought it could be him.

I have not checked the stats myself, but I have seen this multiple times and saw some prominent sports media people discuss this before, so I think it is accurate. Here are some stats that I know are true that certainly support these numbers as well: In the Bills 4 playoff losses to KC: KC averages 36 PPG against the Bills in the playoffs making 9 total tops over 4 games pretty plausible. KC went on to lose the very next game 3 times in the postseason. Those 3 seasons, KC scored 35 PPG against Bills just to average 17 PPG in their very next game, all losses. KC did not score over 30 in any game the entire season and postseason except against the Bills with 32. KC was down 34-0 in the 3rd quarter, so certainly suggests 9 straight stops in the SB. So yeah, I am going to go with almost certainly true, or at the very worst, very close to accurate. But hey...lets not get distracted by facts, stats, and logic, I mean who cares about that stuff right...boring. Lets get back on track and get back to sensationalism and beating that dead horse yelling about WR's some more 😂

Baltimore is the only one that concerns me, especially after the pieces they added in the draft to what was already the best defense in league once they shifted Hamilton.

Imagine thinking there is more to be said on this subject

Shakir is a slot WR, there is no debate from me, never has been as I pounded the table to draft him and then to play him over that scrub McKenzie once Crowder was hurt. So if you, or anyone else, wants to label him a "WR3" because they always label the outside guys WR1 & WR2 then slot WR3...then fine. But he is more than a "WR3" in terms of him being the 3rd WR option, he just led the Bills in receiving where by definition he was a primary target. So in terms of role, ability, production...yeah no, he isn't a "3rd option at WR" and is clearly more important and has a bigger role than that, and has been quite successful in such role.

Disagree it actually favors Beane even more showing these clowns had no idea what they were talking about in terms of not drafting a WR. Beane was in contact for a while with Moore, showing he didn’t feel he had to reach in the draft and had post draft options if a WR didn’t happen early in the draft. Not to mention, these fools were clamoring for someone other than a depth WR like Moore too.

Agreed and quite honestly, I would rather see the targets that were going to Mack (blocking & dirty work specialist) and the Ghost of Cooper go to guys like Keon, Kincaid, Shakir, Palmer, and now Moore, not to mention Knox and RB's...anyway. To me, the weapons are better this year heading into the season (Palmer, Moore plus Keon/Samuel/Kincaid now healthy, and Keon having a year of experience) than where we were when we last saw the Bills walking off the field.

All good, and look, let me be clear about one thing, I would never be upset about adding to our WR room. I was pounding the drum hard all offseason for Donte Thornton at 6'5", 4.3 speed, and what I felt was untapped potential to be more than the deep threat he has kind of been a 1 dimension guy at in college, all be it great at that one dimension. He filled a gap for us even if just 1 dimensional with elite size/speed combo as a vertical guy, and his story and character are pretty incredible and very Bills like type person. But - there was no denying that defense was by far our biggest issue in all our playoff exits, especially this year...and this draft was really deep and good in areas of need on D while fairly light and week at WR. Donte also went a pick before we picked and wasn't an option when we were on the clock. I apologize if I lumped you into the irrational crowd, I don't think your takes here are irrational. But there are people here who are grossly over exaggerating the situation because they do care more about how we score and function as an offense than they do the actual results of the offense. They won't be happy until its a Madden style air it out offense, even though that isn't Allens strong suit.

Because you seem to care more about "how" we score and "who" scores rather than if we score. Scoreboards don't decipher between length of receiving TD or was it a rushing TD and deduct points when they aren't some big play to a WR. Points are points. We are the best in the NFL at scoring points. To whine about how or who is scoring points is like being rich and b****ing about how you made the money. Meanwhile: Burrow - Chase - Higgins didn't make the playoffs...again. Hill and Waddle have helped Miami do what? They missed the playoffs last year and best they have ever done is be the 6th seed and one and done in the postseason. I will take perennial SB contender and most points scored in the NFL 100% of the time over the fantasy football teams Bengals and Miami tried to build and didn't work.

You mean week 4? You know the Ravens lost to the Raiders in week 2 right and also lost to the Browns in week 8? So week 4 isn't very relevant now is it. Teams lose games, its why only 2 teams in NFL history ever went undefeaed in the regular season, and one was when they played far the less games, and the other had the greatest offense in NFL history at that time and got shut down by defense in the SB and lost to Eli Manning. But who finished with the higher seed and won the divisional round to advance to the AFCCG? HINT: Not the Ravens. What I get sick of is people grossly over exaggerating and flat out making up things to support your hysteria. I can't imagine what its like to have so much angst over something the Bills are the best in the NFL at, not just last year, but over the past 5 seasons - scoring points - most in the NFL. You are literally polluting the board with hysteria in regards to: 16th best offense in NFL history #1 offense in Bills history Highest scoring team in the AFC regular season Highest scoring team in the AFC postseason NFL record for most games won by 20+ points 8 straight games of 30+ points NFL MVP led offense Most points scored in the NFL over the past 5 years Fewest turnovers of Allens career and arguably his most efficient and best season And season ended losing by 3 and allowing 32 points to a team who did not break 30 in any other game that season, including the postseason. And not to mention - Refs flipped the score by 11, if not 15 points in mid 4th quarter by not once, but TWICE, stealing a first down from the Bills on the same set of downs. Kincaid had the first by a half yard on 2nd down, they marked it short after the first ref declared first down. 4th down, Josh again gets the first, but wasn't given to us. That resulted in us having a 1 point lead to going down 7 when KC drove the field on a turnover of downs and converted a 2 point conversion. So instead of going up 4 (we were already in FG range and would have a first down to keep driving towards endzone) or possibly 8 (or 9 if they went for 2), we went down 7. That is a 11-15 point swing in the 4th in a game we lost by 3. Otherwise, we very well could have advanced to the SB already last year. But hey...might as well start 100 threads about your WR rants because it makes "so much sense" and is clearly why the Bills havent gotten by the Chiefs and has nothing to do with defense or the fact the Chiefs average 35 PPG in their wins against us in the playoffs and 3 of those times went on to lose the next game averaging 17 PPG (less than half what they score on us). But hey...I know facts aren't your friend...so do carry on with it all be about the WR What is worse about this is that all your rants are about how we didn't take a day 3 WR (which we did) in a weak WR class, meaning, the odds of that person stepping in and being the WR you clamor for are already pretty low.

The only simple (and incorrect) mythology going on here is that you think the Bills lose the production when Mack and Cooper leave, as if no other Bills could have scored those TD's last year or this upcoming year. Its like Cook...if he left, we aren't "losing" his TD's, guys like Allen, Davis, and whoever we replaced Cook with would pick up the slack. This notion is so flawed I can't believe you keep repeating it.

Well you have an interesting concept of “productive”. Cooper - 20 Rec, 297 yards (2.5 rec per game) Hollins - 31 Rec, 378 yards (1.8 rec per game while leading the Bills in most snaps played at receiver) That’s a loose definition you have of “2 productive receivers” we lost. So everyone is panicking because we lost 2 WR’s whose COMBINED production was 4.3 rec per game and under 60 yards? And we replaced them with a guy that is not only capable of producing their same or better COMBINED production, but also brings a lot more value and potential downfield than Mack or the Ghost or Cooper did last year, which was a bigger need than anything. So I don’t think the concern of losing those two and adding Palmer is the lopsided loss you think it is.

The fact you think this is how it works says everything. lol 14% of our TDs didn’t walk out the door. Just because Mack Hollins and Cooper aren’t here does NOT mean the offense by default is now set to lose 14 scores this year and no one else is capable of scoring those TDs. It’s comical at best to even suggest that, not to mention we also added Palmer who quite frankly is better than Hollins as a receiver, and by a lot, who played the most snaps on offense last year at WR because his primary role was doing the dirty work like blocking. This premise is so ridiculous, I shouldn't even continue to point out why….but, there are other holes in this unrealistic calculation like how Keon missed games, was a rookie, and by default should play more and be better in year 2. As well as how both Samuel and Kincaid played hurt a large part of the season too factoring into their individual production last year.

Imagine being the best in the NFL at something (scoring points) and still b****ing because they don’t score the way you want or with who you want. Some of you need to just need to go outside and enjoy spring more and relax a bit

Literally does not prove anything other than that sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn’t when a payer goes to a new team. The guy YOU used just put up 500 more yards in his 5th year than he averaged his first 4 after switching teams. Love how you want to cherry pick when a change of a scenery didn’t work…ignore when it did…then blanket paint the picture it never works lol. Classic TSW though

Did you really just use Jerry Jeudy in your example here? The same Jerry Jeudy who in his 4 years in Denver averaged 763 yards per game before in year 5 putting up 1229 yards in his first year in Cleveland? He was a bust in terms of his expectations and actual 4 year production in Denver prior to switching teams and breaking out in year 5. Also, I don't know anyone who thought Cooper was going to "light it up", and I certainly was NOT one of them. I mean no one was every going to light it up in this spread the ball around offense, its not how our offense functions. So this notion that if they aren't putting up certain numbers in one place then they will never do it elsewhere is inaccurate and history is littered with examples. Now, it doesn't mean they will just suddenly bust out or reach their potential going to another situation either. But there is a reason they say sometimes they just need a change of scenery, and this is true for any position like when we acquired what was then a bust in Jerry Hughes.

I think the biggest thing with Coleman is how much better he was looking before the injury and then how he was a bit lost in his role after time away coming back from injury. I would say its more probable the guy we saw pre-injury was more in line of what to expect or better this year. He admitted he didn't know how to be or fit in coming back after being out a while and his role seemingly a little different with how the offense was then clicking. And on one hand you are glad to see a young player be unselfish, and on the other he needs to find ways to get back involved and that comes with experience too. Best thing about him is that Allen has said Keon has been hitting him up all offseason on getting better, more on the same page, etc all offseason...so I think what we saw pre-injury or better is more in line of what we will see this year. Kincaid being healthy will I think lead to more of the breakout we expected last year when he essential played hurt most the season and battled a nagging knee. This is key IMO to really take the pressure off of Allen...give him a defense where the offense isn't going to always need to be perfect to have a chance to win those tough postseason games.

I mean no theory needed...Beane has said they fully expect Cook to play his contract out this year. With Cook, Davis, and Ty we were set at RB already. The fact they didn't make a move in the draft shows they are fully expecting Cook to suit up and be all in this season. And Beane said they will continue to try and work on a deal along the way. Had they drafted one in the first 4 rounds, especially one that would have been a complimentary player to what Davis does, then I would think there was either expectation of a potential hold out or some trade talks that felt close at the very least. The lack of activity just backs up everything Beane has said about Cook and the good relations between the 2 sides still, and what they expect to see from him come camp.

Is there a weaker fan meltdown right now other than WR? Highest scoring team in the AFC reg season AND postseason. Most total points in the NFL. 16th best offense in NFL history. Numerous NFL offensive records - as a team and individuals. Numerous all time Bills records - as a team and individuals. Lost AFCCG to a team by allowing 32 points that didn't score 30 the entire season or postseason and was down 34-0 in 3rd quarter the next game. Better WR group heading into the season than the group our season ended with. Yet...non stop threads about WR after a draft where WR was a weak class and was best at DL and Corner, the 2 real weakest roster positions heading into the draft. Peak TSW off season form...congrats

Cute you put safety twice to try and divide the votes to make WR stand out more. I wonder what fan narrative is the weakest right now? I think its obvious