Obama = Windfall profit tax

[Chef Jim]

A nation of NIMBY's.

 

Funny, when my wife and I first moved to CA we moved to Long Beach which is loaded with oil wells. We looked at an apartment with an oil pump in the back yard. My wife thought that was the coolest thing. If it weren't for the cockroaches in the sink we would have moved right in.

[Adam]

Funny, when my wife and I first moved to CA we moved to Long Beach which is loaded with oil wells. We looked at an apartment with an oil pump in the back yard. My wife thought that was the coolest thing. If it weren't for the cockroaches in the sink we would have moved right in.

were they flesh eating coachroaches? Those are nasty

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

let's say we:

• Let the states decide if they want drilling, coastal, inland, wherever.
  
• We pump out a reasonable amount of domestic oil, balancing demand while maintaining some acceptable level of reserves
  
• We invest in alternative fuels - wind, solar, biodiesel, whatever.
  
• We build some new nuclear plants, but beware the nimby.
  
• Assume hybrids, fuel efficient cars, etc. all progress at some reasonable rate.
  
• We put in controls that stop the ability of speculators to bid up the price of oil on credit and then dump it off without having to take possession, while still allowing airlines (or similar) to lock-in a future price with a commitment to buy it.
  
• We build several new refineries or at least make deals with nearby refiners (Mexico, Canada, Latin America, etc.)
  

we do all that...

 

So we drill, build, invest, innovate, and take out the artificial price adjusters, what in the hell are we gonna do that will change the demand per person here?

 

We're still gonna run out of oil and leave our children and their children in an awful mess, because we haven't changed demand. If anything, we may increase demand as the market adjusts to the USA's bold energy program, and oil prices start dropping at some level.

 

High prices might really suck, but at least they change our behavior. I'd really like to know what people think are the right ways to limit our dependency on foreign oil, but also change the consumption.

[Adam]

High prices might really suck, but at least they change our behavior. I'd really like to know what people think are the right ways to limit our dependency on foreign oil, but also change the consumption.

What I don't understand in your post is how investing in alternative fuels, nuclear, and making more fuel efficient vehicles wouldn't affect oil consumption- it would cut into it greatly.

[TheMadCap]

let's say we:

• Let the states decide if they want drilling, coastal, inland, wherever.
  
• We pump out a reasonable amount of domestic oil, balancing demand while maintaining some acceptable level of reserves
  
• We invest in alternative fuels - wind, solar, biodiesel, whatever.
  
• We build some new nuclear plants, but beware the nimby.
  
• Assume hybrids, fuel efficient cars, etc. all progress at some reasonable rate.
  
• We put in controls that stop the ability of speculators to bid up the price of oil on credit and then dump it off without having to take possession, while still allowing airlines (or similar) to lock-in a future price with a commitment to buy it.
  
• We build several new refineries or at least make deals with nearby refiners (Mexico, Canada, Latin America, etc.)
  

we do all that...

 

So we drill, build, invest, innovate, and take out the artificial price adjusters, what in the hell are we gonna do that will change the demand per person here?

 

We're still gonna run out of oil and leave our children and their children in an awful mess, because we haven't changed demand. If anything, we may increase demand as the market adjusts to the USA's bold energy program, and oil prices start dropping at some level.

 

High prices might really suck, but at least they change our behavior. I'd really like to know what people think are the right ways to limit our dependency on foreign oil, but also change the consumption.

 

Yes, I admit I am a bit torn, one one hand I hate getting ass-raped at the pump. OTOH, until fuel prices get ridiculously high, no one will change thier behavior.

 

It will be a step-wise process, like everything. Remember back in the day when recycling was just getting started? No one ever thought willfull recycling of aluminum, plastic and paper would become the norm, but now just about everyone recycles stuff. I believe it will be the same for this situation too.

 

For now, what we can do is try and maximize the amount of alternative sources of energy to meet non-transportation related demand. My personal theory is that oil prices cannot stay as high as they are right now, and will stabilize relatively soon (~1 year) to the previously unheard of price of ~75 bucks a barrel. Gas prices will be high, but stable, especially as we bring out national resources to bear.

[/dev/null]

Was wondering how long before somebody came up with this brilliant idea

http://www.foxnews.com/urgent_queue/index....ef44,2008-06-18

 

We (the government) should own the refineries. Then we can control how much gets out into the market.

-Rep. Maurice Hinchey (D-NY)

 

[SilverNRed]

Was wondering how long before somebody came up with this brilliant idea

http://www.foxnews.com/urgent_queue/index....ef44,2008-06-18

 

We (the government) should own the refineries. Then we can control how much gets out into the market.

-Rep. Maurice Hinchey (D-NY)

 

Because everyone knows the federal government is a model of efficiency.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Because everyone knows the federal government is a model of efficiency.

 

Very effiecient here at work! The commercial industry basically begs not to have things privatized!

 

[Kevbeau]

It will be a step-wise process, like everything. Remember back in the day when recycling was just getting started? No one ever thought willfull recycling of aluminum, plastic and paper would become the norm, but now just about everyone recycles stuff. I believe it will be the same for this situation too.

 

Mmmm, not so much down South. Now I know I'm painting with a broad brush, but most (but not all) of the people I know who recycle here (Atlanta) are originally from the North....although to your point, it is on the increase.

 

Kind of an offshoot topic, although at its base, it's oil related.....

The company I work for used to lobby like crazy to keep deposit law bills out of legislation, believing that it would adversely affect purchase intent. While we still don't advocate deposit laws, we have invested a significant amount of money in the development of reverse vendors (bottle return machines @ supermarkets) and earmarked an additional $60 million to open the world's largest plastic bottle recycling plant in S. Carolina...which is scheduled to come on line this year and ramp up to full production in 2009. We made a commitment about 10 years ago, at the behest of environmental groups to include 20% recycled PET in our containers (The FDA limits recycled content for some food containers). After making the commitment, we discovered that the supply wasn't there and what supply existed, was being drawn by the carpet industry.

 

To wrap up this drawn out story, CSR (Corporate Social Responsibilty) is a big buzzword(s) now. Some corporations see it as a PR move, and from a business standpoint, it is. However, with most consumer products companies fighting an unprecedented cost of goods increase over the last two years, CSR is now being looked at for its financial impact to the bottom line. Wal-Mart is actually at the forefront of sustainability, whether it be through recycling or material reduction. Again, the driver is money, but we (society/environment) will benefit.

 

I now conclude my PSA.

 

 

By the way, before I went off on my tangent, I wanted to post this link.

 

% of Income Spent on Gasoline (U.S)

[Fan in Chicago]

Was wondering how long before somebody came up with this brilliant idea

http://www.foxnews.com/urgent_queue/index....ef44,2008-06-18

 

We (the government) should own the refineries. Then we can control how much gets out into the market.

-Rep. Maurice Hinchey (D-NY)

 

 

Ha ha ha ha ... The Onion is really funny.... ha ha.

 

Wait, this was Fox News ? As in real news ?

 

I am stunned that anybody in the US, the land of Univ of Chicago thinking, can even bring up this idea. Especially one of our elected politicians. I promise to never vote for the first presidential candidate that supports this idea.

[bills_fan]

let's say we:

• Let the states decide if they want drilling, coastal, inland, wherever.
  
• We pump out a reasonable amount of domestic oil, balancing demand while maintaining some acceptable level of reserves
  
• We invest in alternative fuels - wind, solar, biodiesel, whatever.
  
• We build some new nuclear plants, but beware the nimby.
  
• Assume hybrids, fuel efficient cars, etc. all progress at some reasonable rate.
  
• We put in controls that stop the ability of speculators to bid up the price of oil on credit and then dump it off without having to take possession, while still allowing airlines (or similar) to lock-in a future price with a commitment to buy it.
  
• We build several new refineries or at least make deals with nearby refiners (Mexico, Canada, Latin America, etc.)
  

we do all that...

 

So we drill, build, invest, innovate, and take out the artificial price adjusters, what in the hell are we gonna do that will change the demand per person here?

 

We're still gonna run out of oil and leave our children and their children in an awful mess, because we haven't changed demand. If anything, we may increase demand as the market adjusts to the USA's bold energy program, and oil prices start dropping at some level.

 

High prices might really suck, but at least they change our behavior. I'd really like to know what people think are the right ways to limit our dependency on foreign oil, but also change the consumption.

 

 

I was with you until the end. You want to change the consumption...come up with a better and cheaper way. The person who invents and perfects the hydrogen cell motor will be a multi-billionaire. Thats the carrot. If the hydrogen cell motor (or any other new technologies) prove cheaper, and more efficient you will only see conventional motors on classics and in museums. No reason to beat people with a stick to change behavior when billions are to be made.

[Fan in Chicago]

I was with you until the end. You want to change the consumption...come up with a better and cheaper way. The person who invents and perfects the hydrogen cell motor will be a multi-billionaire. Thats the carrot. If the hydrogen cell motor (or any other new technologies) prove cheaper, and more efficient you will only see conventional motors on classics and in museums. No reason to beat people with a stick to change behavior when billions are to be made.

ya, but ... Where is the hydrogen going to come from ? Wicked laws of nature have intricately linked hydrogen with carbon molecules and these things called hydrocarbons are widely present in usable form in natural gas, coal and crude oil. So if the end goal is to reduce our dependence on these sources, we are SOL. If purely from a environmental perspective, using hydrogen to power transportation is good but what I said above implies that separating hydrogen will leave behind carbon which will have to be disposed off in some enviro-friendly fashion. There are ofcourse other pesky factors as to production plants for hydrogen, fill-up stations etc. which are a major barrier to the utopian 'hydrogen economy'. If the goal is to produce on-board hydrogen, it still needs a feed which will most likely have a carbon-related by-product.

 

The ultimate solution will be to split water (a highly energy intensive process) using solar energy to get hydrogen and oxygen.

 

Sucky situation, eh ?

[PastaJoe]

Let's not forget that the steam engine started out with an efficiency of only 3%, and internal combustion engines were similar. The reason why these technologies became so efficient was because of the ongoing production and research fueled by increased consumer demand. In the case of internal combustion, current cars have had a century to mature. I don't doubt hydrogen will be the same way, it has to start somewhere, which is why I applaud Honda's future thinking move to produce a hydrogen powered car. They say it will take about 10 years to become mass produced, about the same amount of time it would take to yield results from new offshore and Alaskan oil drilling. As hydrogen cars begin to take hold of a larger segment of the market, over time this will push the development of new technologies and materials. I think it's inevitable that the efficiencies of both the production and use of hydrogen will approach those of the current internal combustion engine, and costs will obviously also go down, even if this is the far off future. We can either keep doing things the same old way or start the transition to new now.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Let's not forget that the steam engine started out with an efficiency of only 3%, and internal combustion engines were similar. The reason why these technologies became so efficient was because of the ongoing production and research fueled by increased consumer demand. In the case of internal combustion, current cars have had a century to mature. I don't doubt hydrogen will be the same way, it has to start somewhere, which is why I applaud Honda's future thinking move to produce a hydrogen powered car. They say it will take about 10 years to become mass produced, about the same amount of time it would take to yield results from new offshore and Alaskan oil drilling. As hydrogen cars begin to take hold of a larger segment of the market, over time this will push the development of new technologies and materials. I think it's inevitable that the efficiencies of both the production and use of hydrogen will approach those of the current internal combustion engine, and costs will obviously also go down, even if this is the far off future. We can either keep doing things the same old way or start the transition to new now.

 

That's a whole lot of assumption there, mister.

[KD in CA]

Let's not forget that the steam engine started out with an efficiency of only 3%, and internal combustion engines were similar. The reason why these technologies became so efficient was because of the ongoing production and research fueled by increased consumer demand. In the case of internal combustion, current cars have had a century to mature. I don't doubt hydrogen will be the same way, it has to start somewhere, which is why I applaud Honda's future thinking move to produce a hydrogen powered car. They say it will take about 10 years to become mass produced, about the same amount of time it would take to yield results from new offshore and Alaskan oil drilling. As hydrogen cars begin to take hold of a larger segment of the market, over time this will push the development of new technologies and materials. I think it's inevitable that the efficiencies of both the production and use of hydrogen will approach those of the current internal combustion engine, and costs will obviously also go down, even if this is the far off future. We can either keep doing things the same old way or start the transition to new now.

 

And since there is a 100% guarantee that hydrogen powered cars will by mass marketed in ten years, we should completely abandon all efforts to find add'l sources of energy that is usable with today's technology. Hippie logic at work.

[Adam]

And since there is a 100% guarantee that hydrogen powered cars will by mass marketed in ten years, we should completely abandon all efforts to find add'l sources of energy that is usable with today's technology. Hippie logic at work.

I think somewhere in the middle is the answer- we need to dig, but not in all possible locations

[PastaJoe]

That's a whole lot of assumption there, mister.

 

People had to assume we could fly to the moon too until they tried it.

[PastaJoe]

And since there is a 100% guarantee that hydrogen powered cars will by mass marketed in ten years, we should completely abandon all efforts to find add'l sources of energy that is usable with today's technology. Hippie logic at work.

 

It will just prolong the dependence on old technology and delay the investment in new.

[DC Tom]

I think it's inevitable that the efficiencies of both the production and use of hydrogen will approach those of the current internal combustion engine, and costs will obviously also go down

 

I think it's inevitable that the efficiencies of both the production and use of ethanol will approach those of the current internal combustion engine, and costs will obviously also go down

 

I think it's inevitable that the efficiencies of both the production and use of solar power will approach those of the current power plants, and costs will obviously also go down

 

I think it's inevitable that the efficiencies of both the production and use of nuclear power will approach those of the current power plants, and costs will obviously also go down

[Ramius]

Let's not forget that the steam engine started out with an efficiency of only 3%, and internal combustion engines were similar. The reason why these technologies became so efficient was because of the ongoing production and research fueled by increased consumer demand. In the case of internal combustion, current cars have had a century to mature. I don't doubt hydrogen will be the same way, it has to start somewhere, which is why I applaud Honda's future thinking move to produce a hydrogen powered car. They say it will take about 10 years to become mass produced, about the same amount of time it would take to yield results from new offshore and Alaskan oil drilling. As hydrogen cars begin to take hold of a larger segment of the market, over time this will push the development of new technologies and materials. I think it's inevitable that the efficiencies of both the production and use of hydrogen will approach those of the current internal combustion engine, and costs will obviously also go down, even if this is the far off future. We can either keep doing things the same old way or start the transition to new now.

 

Kick ass. Mass produced hydrogen cars in 10 years.

 

Now what about that pesky little minor detail about building an infrastructure to support all of our hydrogen powered vehicles?